Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Consumer]

well, tempest I is too powerful atm
10% doublestrike would be too powerful too

if you havent noticed it, thats a way to rebalance the game

Tempest I is currently rather useless unless you want atleast 18 ranger levels or play a tempest rogue, it is not too powerful.

[Calebro]

Tempest I is currently rather useless unless you want atleast 18 ranger levels or play a tempest rogue, it is not too powerful.

It isn't useless, it adds 10% to off-hand attacks rather than to attack speed, and you still get the dual weapon shield bonus.

[Visty]

Tempest I is currently rather useless unless you want atleast 18 ranger levels or play a tempest rogue, it is not too powerful.

why is everyone and his mum taking it then?
if its not too powerful

and @ ganolyn:
they wont change the levels of tempest as all 3tier prestige classes are at 6 12 and 18

[Vhlad]

Tempest I is currently rather useless unless you want atleast 18 ranger levels or play a tempest rogue, it is not too powerful.

The new numbers indicate that tempest I gives a 10% bonus to off hand proc (in addition to +2 shield AC). That is not useless. It's a nerf, but it's still a good tier 1 PrE IMO.

These changes do hit rangers the hardest, unless they can actually get 120% off hand with tempest III and STWF, for a chance to proc two off hand attacks at once. But I don't think it will work that way.

[R0cksteady]

So is there an answer yet as to what the requirements for STWF will be yet? Just BAB 16 or will we need 19 Dex like in PnP?

I'm really hoping it doesn't take an even higher dex.

[Coldin]

Here are Eladrins newest numbers compared to current numbers:

                Proposed            Current
    Doublestrike    Bonus    Main hand    Off hand    Main hand    Off hand
No feats          0    20%    100%        20%        100%        25%
TWF        0    +20%    100%        40%        100%        50%
ITWF        0    +20%    100%        60%        100%        75%
GTWF        0    +20%    100%        80%        100%        100%
STWF        0    +20%    100%        100%        100%        -
Tempest I    0    +10%    100%        90%        110%        110%
Tempest II    0    +10%    100%        100%         110%        110%
Tempest III    +5%*    0    105%        100%        110%        137.5%
Wind IV        +10%    0    110%        80%        110%        110%
Zeal        +10%    0    110%        80%        110%        110%
Alacrity         +10%    0    110%        80%        110%        110%

Note: the +5% or +10% double strike is not in addition to 105% or 110% main hand. Eladrin is just showing that, because of the + double strike, the main hand is equivalent to 105% or 110%.

Many misconceptions and errors in analysis are being repeated throughout this thread. I will address some of them.

Misconception #1: This nerfs monks the most - FALSE

Monk (air IV), Fighter (alacrity), Paladin (zeal): these 3 classes are currently 110% main hand and 110% off hand, i.e. they are equalized. Under the proposed numbers, this balance does not change. Monk, Fighter, Paladin remain equalized at 110% main hand and 80% off hand. The relative balance between these classes is maintained. Monk is NOT nerfed moreso than fighter/paladin. It's also important to remember that there are no changes made to the base unarmed attack rate for monks. It is still faster than the attack rate when wielding two weapons, this has not changed.

Note: Since the monk unarmed attack rate is the fastest, anything that affects damage in any way will affect monks the most. i.e. +1 bonus to damage helps monks the most, because they have the most attacks per minute. In that sense, a global 30% reduction to off-hand hooks will "nerf" monks the most, because they have the most attacks per minute, but that's a silly and pointless argument. As long as monks still have the most attacks, then ANY changes to combat will affect monks the most. Whats important is, in this case, is that monks/fighters/paladins went from the same # of main and off hand attacks per swing amongst each other, to the same # of main and off hand attacks per swing amongst each other. There is no direct nerf to monks.

Misconception #2: This slows down attack animations too much - FALSE

The maximum change to swing animation speed is only 10%: zeal, alacrity, and wind IV change their stacking 10% animation speed bonus to 10% double strike on the main hand, and the 10% tempest I swing animation bonus is changed to a 10% off-hand proc bonus. Again, we're looking at 10% reduction in swing speed for a few classes, max. No more.

Misconception #3: This buffs rangers the most - FALSE

A tempest III ranger is currently 110% main hand and 137.5% off hand. They lose 5% main hand and 37.5% off hand. Compare to monks, paladins, fighters who lose 0% main hand and 30% off hand. Rangers are getting the biggest nerf. Furthermore, if STWF is added, then monks, paladins, fighters only lose 10% off hand, whereas a ranger even with STWF still loses 37.5% off hand.

Misconception #4: This nerfs rogues the most - FALSE

Currently, rogues (using GTWF) are 10% lower main hand and 10% lower off hand. Under the proposed numbers, the rogue off hand is equalized with fighters, monks, paladins: i.e. rogues (using GTWF) are 10% lower main hand and EQUAL off hand. This means that rogues experience a relative 10% buff in their off hand. This is a buff to rogues.

Misconception #5: This moves further away from pen and paper & standard rules documentation. - FALSE

The new proposal is actually closer to the SRD. Compare:

        SRD    Proposed    Current
No feats          25%    20%        25%            
TWF        25%    40%        50%
ITWF        50%    60%        75%
GTWF        75%    80%        100

We're going from: 25% difference from the SRD in TWF, ITWF, GTWF. Total cumulative difference = 75%
to: 5% difference in no feats, 15% difference in TWF, 10% difference in ITWF, 5% difference in GTWF. Total cumulative difference = 35%
Thus, Eladrins new numbers are in-fact substantially closer to the source material.

I'd give you +1 Rep if I could Vhlad.

[twoton]

nevermind just read post that explained it all to me.

Thanks Coldin

[Calebro]

I'd give you +1 Rep if I could Vhlad.

You certainly can, and I already have.

[Consumer]

The new numbers indicate that tempest I gives a 10% bonus to off hand proc (in addition to +2 shield AC). That is not useless. It's a nerf, but it's still a good tier 1 PrE IMO.

These changes do hit rangers the hardest, unless they can actually get 120% off hand with tempest III and STWF, for a chance to proc two off hand attacks at once. But I don't think it will work that way.

I said currently not new numbers, but yes with STWF it will be awful.

[Ganolyn]

You left off the important part of that chart, at the bottom, that reads:
All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

So GTWF isn't useless, it's assumed in those numbers.

Thats that part that is confusing me. If you take Tempest I at 6th level you are already past the benefit of GTWF, that you don't get until 11th level, by 10% . It does help AA's that can use extra melee swings so I take back the useless comment; it is useless for Tempest Rangers and might need a Feat line option tree based on what PrE you choose at 6th. Maybe give them a choice of Improved Crit instead

[SolarDawning]

@Vhlad:

Actually, you're wrong.
Monks are hit hardest. Here's why:

Ki generation.
To deal ideal DPS, a monk must maintain a constant chain of Ki strikes, substituting Touch of Death for one when it is off cooldown.

This is already difficult to pull off 'with' Oremi's Necklace, which doubles the amount of ki per hit a monk gets.

With 15% less attacks, and thus 15% less ki, a monk will be unable to use as many ki abilities and strikes.

[Calebro]

Thats that part that is confusing me. If you take Tempest I at 6th level you are already past the benefit of GTWF by 10% that you don't get until 11th level. It does help AA's that can use extra melee swings so I take back the useless comment; it is useless for Tempest Rangers and might need a Feat line option tree based on what PrE you choose at 6th. Maybe give them a choice of Improved Crit instead

Ignore the off hand chart and look at the bonus chart.
At 6th level you'd have TWF, ITWF and the Tempst I bonus = 70% at 6th level.
This is why Eldarin added "All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF" at the end.

[zealous]

Many misconceptions and errors in analysis are being repeated throughout this thread. I will address some of them.

This should probably be quoted in the OP to avoid further confusion.

[Visty]

@Vhlad:

Actually, you're wrong.
Monks are hit hardest. Here's why:

Ki generation.
To deal ideal DPS, a monk must maintain a constant chain of Ki strikes, substituting Touch of Death for one when it is off cooldown.

This is already difficult to pull off 'with' Oremi's Necklace, which doubles the amount of ki per hit a monk gets.

With 15% less attacks, and thus 15% less ki, a monk will be unable to use as many ki abilities and strikes.

just thinking, that might also be a way to make fire stance more attractive

[zealous]

@Vhlad:

Actually, you're wrong.
Monks are hit hardest. Here's why:

Ki generation.
To deal ideal DPS, a monk must maintain a constant chain of Ki strikes, substituting Touch of Death for one when it is off cooldown.

This is already difficult to pull off 'with' Oremi's Necklace, which doubles the amount of ki per hit a monk gets.

With 15% less attacks, and thus 15% less ki, a monk will be unable to use as many ki abilities and strikes.

Which would be true if skipping a lower tier strike would have a massive impact on damage output, it does not.

Additionally, for most situations there is the opportunity to super charge ki by wacking on a stunned mob.

When that is not possible, if loosing the ki is such a big deal, doing a short stance dance between fire stance and wind stance is entirely possible.

[Vhlad]

@Vhlad:

Actually, you're wrong.
Monks are hit hardest. Here's why:

Ki generation.
To deal ideal DPS, a monk must maintain a constant chain of Ki strikes, substituting Touch of Death for one when it is off cooldown.

This is already difficult to pull off 'with' Oremi's Necklace, which doubles the amount of ki per hit a monk gets.

With 15% less attacks, and thus 15% less ki, a monk will be unable to use as many ki abilities and strikes.

15% less ki, however
You now have a 6.1% (or 8%?) chance to triple strike with your ki attack

With STWF (if it is introduced with a BAB requirement that allows monks to take it), monks are only looking at 5% less attacks (5% less ki). And in that case, you're looking at a 10% chance to triple strike with your ki attack. Monks would come out ahead here.

It's a headache fitting in STWF though. Honestly, I'm fine with Eladrins numbers without STWF added. (unless they ease up on the feat reqs for shintao I, maybe add toughness or a TWF feat to the acceptable list, assuming monks can even take STWF if its added, but they likely can't since in SRD it reqs 16 BAB)

[SquelchHU]

just thinking, that might also be a way to make fire stance more attractive

Without Wind 4 you drop further, from 110%/80% to 100%/60%.

You might get more ki per attack but you cut your attacks down by an additional 25% or so. Wind stance is more necessary now, not less (whereas before you could switch to fire and as long as you were hasted you'd drop from 110%/110% to 100%/100%... not nearly as steep of a drop).

[Visty]

Without Wind 4 you drop further, from 110%/80% to 100%/60%.

You might get more ki per attack but you cut your attacks down by an additional 25% or so. Wind stance is more necessary now, not less (whereas before you could switch to fire and as long as you were hasted you'd drop from 110%/110% to 100%/100%... not nearly as steep of a drop).

wrong

windstance only gives the 10% doublestrike and no offhand bonus at all
so youre down to 100%/80% in fire
that is if fire doesnt get a change too

[SolarDawning]

15% less ki, however
You now have a 6.1% chance to triple strike with your ki attack

With STWF, monks are only looking at 5% less attacks (5% less ki). And in that case, you're looking at a 10% chance to triple strike with your ki attack. Monks would come out ahead here.

We're not sure what requirements STWF will have, and I know few monks that could fit an extra feat into their build as-is, let alone considering the feats needed for the new PrE's.

[Alintalkin]

Misconception #1: This nerfs monks the most - FALSE

Monk (air IV), Fighter (alacrity), Paladin (zeal): these 3 classes are currently 110% main hand and 110% off hand, i.e. they are equalized. Under the proposed numbers, this balance does not change. Monk, Fighter, Paladin remain equalized at 110% main hand and 80% off hand. The relative balance between these classes is maintained. Monk is NOT nerfed moreso than fighter/paladin. It's also important to remember that there are no changes made to the base unarmed attack rate for monks. It is still faster than the attack rate when wielding two weapons, this has not changed.

Note: Since the monk unarmed attack rate is the fastest, anything that affects damage in any way will affect monks the most. i.e. +1 bonus to damage helps monks the most, because they have the most attacks per minute. In that sense, a global 30% reduction to off-hand hooks will "nerf" monks the most, because they have the most attacks per minute, but that's a silly and pointless argument. As long as monks still have the most attacks, then ANY changes to combat will affect monks the most. Whats important is, in this case, is that monks/fighters/paladins went from the same # of main and off hand attacks per swing amongst each other, to the same # of main and off hand attacks per swing amongst each other. There is no direct nerf to monks.

This is not a direct nerf monks it is a bigger one to monks then Paladins and fighters. This is simply because Paladin's and Fighters will be able to get STWF and Monks won't as they count as a 3/4 BAB, even if they have full BAB when using monk weapons. Therefore fighters and Paladins can get 20% more off hands then monks can under the purposed system. This does bring an imbalance to these full BAB (well at least when monks are using monk weapons) classes. Any way you look at it a Paladin and fighter can get away from this with a (less then, due to offhand being only half strength bonus) 5% decrease in attack rate well monks get away with 15% without splashing into another classes . Though this is not intentionally a nerf to monks directly, it becomes a larger nerf to monks then any other class due to the inability to get STWF and the 30% decrease in offhand rate you speak of decrease you speak of. A monk's 15% drop in DPS is greater then a 5% drop in another classes that has greater DPS to begin with.

To sum this up: It is a greater nerf to monks then Paladins and fighters because monks would be unable to get STWF or 100% in offhand while Paladins and fighters can. Hence my suggestion in an earlier post to increase the chance of a monk gaining a 5% increase in chance of hitting an offhand every 5 levels with monk weapons (a.k.a when a monk has full BAB like fighter and Paladin). It requires you to be pure to get that 100%, and brings monks to only a 5% decrease in attack and DPS. It makes them nearly equal to Paladins and fighters in terms of nerfing.

Note: STWF will at least require 15 BAB which monks would need to be 20 to get which isn't a place where they can get feats. It is more likely that STWF will require 16 BAB in which case monks won't ever hit it, even if they are at 20 BAB using monk weapons
P.S: It is true that Tempest rangers are being nerfed more then any other class but they still have a nearly equal attack rate to the other full BAB classes, though I believe that they should have 110% on main hand to make them equal to other full BAB classes in that regard.

Edit: upon reading Solars posts I would like to add that there is also the 15% less in ki regen. Also that the 15 BAB requirement was stated by a Dev the first time they wanted to add it in and therefore the BAB requirement we can rightly assume until Devs release information of anything different.

Second edit: found the post http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...52#post1448752