Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Galacticus]

well then: answer: balancing

Exactly! I can't answer that because this game is so out of balance and it has been since the mod with Velah dropped.

I can't answer that question cause I DON'T KNOW.

[Visty]

Exactly! I can't answer that because this game is so out of balance and it has been since the mod with Velah dropped.

I can't answer that question cause I DON'T KNOW.

that is why i answered it for you

[Verengor]

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

I'm wondering what BAB and dex requirement will be needed for Superior TWF?

[Consumer]

My monk has 35 AC. You only get it if you build and gear (i.e. sacrifice) for it. Not to mention that 70 AC is the same as 2 AC in epic content.

You're seriously using movement speed as a justification as to why one class should be disadvantaged in terms of DPS over the other? I'm sorry, but I never see an LFM up saying "MUST HAVE 160% MOVEMENT SPEED, WILL BE MYDDOED!"

Self healing is not gauranteed. Not every monk is a light monk. Moreover, that self healing is very minimal. For it to be useful in end game content the character must have an extreme amount of healing amp, which costs both gear and AP.

Edit: Monks don't farm for greensteel weapons because they can't. Kamas and quarterstaves are woefully inadequate compared to handwraps - of which greensteel variants do not exist. Monks have been asking for them.

Epic weapons are in the same boat. I can't craft any for my monk because there aren't any he could use. Monks have been asking for this as well.

Other classes are able to equip the same # of ToD rings as monks, but the benefits are much more significant for monks. I should also add that the importance of unarmed bursting effects on ToD rings for monks locks them out of the primary source of +2 exceptional stat bonuses which every other class can get on ToD rings.

I know all those things but if you get to have those benefits and DPS, I want that on all my toons aswell even if there not that much of a difference, see where I'm going?

[Luis_Velderve]

These are serious questions for Eladrin and the Dev team that I think if they would implement it would cause a shift of opinion in the changes being handled on the matter of altering the fuction of Two Weapon Fighting and have more people join onto the combat system changes, as they would be easier to implement with the changes being made to the system.

1. Verstile Weapon Property: With the changes currently being planned, would it be possible to open up the option of the Verstile Weapon property? This property would allow a player to automatically wield a single One Handed Weapon with the Verstile Weapon property as Two Handed for the purposes of damage as long as they use nothing in thier Off Hand. Examples of Versitle Weapons would include the Bastard Sword and the Dwarven War Axe.

2. Double Weapon Property: With the changes currently being planned, would it be possible to open up the option of the Double Weapon property? This property would allow a player to automatically wield a Double Weapon as a single weapon that fuctions as Two Weapons for the purposes of Two Weapon Fighting. In effect allowing that specific single weapon to proc Off Hand attacks as well as being the Main Hand weapon. A weapon with this property though would not gain 1 and 1/2 times strength modifier on the Main Hand attack. Example of a Double Weapon would be Quarterstaff (Double), an altered version of the Quarterstaff, leaving the original quarterstaff to become Quarterstaff (Two Handed).

3. Finesse Weapon Property: With the introduction of properties, would it be possible to open up the option of the Finesse Weapon proterty? Though redundant of the current fuction of the Rapier, it would allow a clear understanding that a weapon with this property can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. On this note you could introduce this function if you wish to add weapons listed from D&D v.3.5 suppliments, such as the Elven Courtblade Sword from Races of the Wild, you could introduce the One Handed Finesse Weapon and the Two Handed Finesse Weapon Properties, to allow a greater ability to add more content to the game.

***A note on these properties, they do not function as Enchantments but as part of the weapon as normal, similar to the Light Weapon, One Handed Weapon, and Two Handed Weapon discriptions.

These are some ideas if I saw happen, and if I am understanding the way you are recoding the combat system, all of these would be possible aside from the Finesse Weapon property which is already running in the game currently, though without a solid name to signify it.

UPDATE: I have created a Suggestion Forum Thread for discussion of this idea. I would like to hear player opinion of this idea on this thread or in my New Thread.

Thank you,
TiranBlade

I think that if Developers introduce more viable fighting stlyes the twf toons will decrease and "Lag problem" will solve by itself. S&B should improve to be a real DPS option, obviously any S&B knows that a higher AC will affect their damage output but the diff. is huge.

Verstile Weapon? I agree but we should think about these too:

Feat :Single Weapon Style, +X to hit and damage and +X to AC while only using one single handed weapon with no shield (one rapier only , one dagger only, one mace etc..)

Feat: Single Weapon Style II, +X to hit and damage and +X to AC while only using one single handed weapon with no shield (one rapier only , one dagger only, one mace etc..)

Feat: Insightful Strike:INT modifier would stack with STR damage. Since you are using INT, is more that fair to allow DR and/or fortification.Requirements: Base INT 15 or 17, Weapon Finesse or Combat Expertise, +X BAB (thks GAVAGAI)

At the end more VIABLE DPS CHOICES LESS TWF AND FEWER PROXIMITY CHECKS

[rezo]

More I read about this the more I like it Eladrin. You will always get people crying about it but, it's your call and don't let the few players that come to the forums and cry how you will gimping there build change your mind. After all you can make everyone happy.

[Consumer]

DO IT!!!

I wanted to reincarnate into that build but have hesitations now

12/6/2 Fighter/Ranger/Rogue - WF - min II khopeshes, epic bloodstone, tharnes goggles, FB and shintao ToD rings

Current against trash with dt -> 517.08 DPS
Current against trash with redscale -> 541.93 DPS

Now after update with STWF (loss of 10% tempest competence bonus)

dt -> 479.4 DPS
redscale -> 502.43 DPS

Can SS the calc if need be. Also relevant past life feats would be helpful.

[Timjc86]

I've seen a lot of conversation about DPS and utility for fighters and barbarians versus rogues, monks, bards, favored souls, rangers, clerics, etc. I'd like to add my views.

Two things seem supremely attractive for melee characters in end game content (even more so in epics): DPS and survivability.

While AC improves survivability in early game and some in mid game content, its effectiveness reduces the higher level you get while the specialty gear to grind for increases. Once you get to epics, AC is pretty useless.

What does improve survivability is hitpoints and DR. In this sense, fighters and barbarians become much more survivable than other melee classes (especially rogues, which have the lowest HP pool and zero class DR.)

A lot of the arguments for fighters and barbarians having the most DPS since that's all they get seem to not realize that these classes are also the most survivable by far. Groups are hesitant to take rogues and monks not just because of the poor DPS stereotypes but also because it's much easier for those characters to drop very quickly when things go wrong.

If significant changes are made to TWF, what incentive is there for groups to take squishier classes that do even less DPS now?

The "that's the way it should be" arguments just don't have me convinced.

[Timjc86]

I know all those things but if you get to have those benefits and DPS, I want that on all my toons aswell even if there not that much of a difference, see where I'm going?

No, not at all. Why would you want to trade DPS for benefits most groups consider useless?

[Consumer]

No, not at all. Why would you want to trade DPS for benefits most groups consider useless?

They might be useless in a group setting but when I'm soloing leveling a barb or fighter I certainly want free self healing, faster movement for zerging and AC. If you get what you want and monk gets more DPS while THF and TWF get nerfed I definately wan't my utility.

[Ganolyn]

Originally Posted by Ganolyn:
I'd still like to know why they think decreasing lower level character's chances to hit with two weapons will help anything

They're NOT lowering the chances to hit for lower levels. That's what is happening at higher levels. At lower levels, they actually have MORE chances to hit with this system.

Then I must be missing something because remember my TWF hitting more than 20%-40% of the time with the off hand when I was low level. They seemed to have repaired the higher levels for the most part. The mechanic is different, but you will still be hitting at 100% or close to it with off hand attacks with the proper feats and PrE's if they go ahead with the second chart numbers that were posted.

[IronClan]

Fail. In PnP TWF is all about paying hard in feats, gear, and opportunity cost for the privilege of sucking. The ONLY reason so many people do it anyways (aside from not knowing this basic mathematic fact of course) is because Driz'zt was a TWFer, so they are too.

Sword and board is supposed to trade offense for defense, but all that happens is you die just as quickly while doing less damage (and thus have a much lower chance of saving yourself from death). That leaves THF as the only valid option... unless you're playing 'non monty haul' as you put it, in which case all non casters are automatically and completely irrelevant instead of just all the non THFers.

My statement stipulates a competent non-monty hall DM Aside from that your post pretty much says the same exact thing I did you just couched yours in absolutes as if a good DM couldn't overcome any and all of those issues (I even typed out a comment about Drizzt but apparently edited it out). You just take it to the min max extreme... no surprise there Also no surprise that you (apparently) have players who all min max to the point of only wanting to play arcanes.

I'll be honest man, most you your posts paint you as someone who's read the rule books but never DM'ed or even played in a decently run campaign... You viewpoints seem to be taken from running epics in DDO and transferring this absolutist idea of how the game is supposed to be played to an imaginary P&P game that you and your imaginary players "who hate you" according to your own sig all have the same level of extreme min maxer mentality...

[SquelchHU]

They might be useless in a group setting but when I'm soloing leveling a barb or fighter I certainly want free self healing, faster movement for zerging and AC. If you get what you want and monk gets more DPS while THF and TWF get nerfed I definately wan't my utility.

You can get two out of three.

Free self healing: Merc is cheap as free and good enough for soloing. Both Fighter and Barbarian can do this.

Faster movement: Barbarian gets this.

AC: At low and mid levels at least, Fighter gets this. Otherwise just have your merc cast Heal on you more.

[Angelus_dead]

you just couched yours in absolutes as if a good DM couldn't overcome any and all of those issues

Yes, a good DM certainly can overcome those issues... by not obeying the written D&D rules. So what a good DM can accomplish does not work as evidence that the D&D rules should be strictly obeyed by DDO.

[SquelchHU]

My statement stipulates a competent non-monty hall DM Aside from that your post pretty much says the same exact thing I did you just couched yours in absolutes as if a good DM couldn't overcome any and all of those issues (I even typed out a comment about Drizzt but apparently edited it out). You just take it to the min max extreme... no surprise there Also no surprise that you (apparently) have players who all min max to the point of only wanting to play arcanes.

I'll be honest man, most you your posts paint you as someone who's read the rule books but never DM'ed or even played in a decently run campaign... You viewpoints seem to be taken from running epics in DDO and transferring this absolutist idea of how the game is supposed to be played to an imaginary P&P game that you and your imaginary players "who hate you" according to your own sig all have the same level of extreme min maxer mentality...

First of all, what the hell are you talking about? According to 'my sig'? What?

Second, ALL melee is EXTREMELY gear dependent. If you are not getting, AT A MINIMUM 150-200% WBL don't even roll a melee, it will never work. And even if you are only a THF will work... TWF will require closer to 300%, and still be made of fail. I believe that qualifies as 'monty haul', thus:

...all non casters are automatically and completely irrelevant instead of just all the non THFers.

Hint: The fact DDO equipment is common is one of the primary contributing factors to melee actually being useful.

[Consumer]

You can get two out of three.

Free self healing: Merc is cheap as free and good enough for soloing. Both Fighter and Barbarian can do this.

Faster movement: Barbarian gets this.

AC: At low and mid levels at least, Fighter gets this. Otherwise just have your merc cast Heal on you more.

I give up, you fail to see the point.

[Deathseeker]

While AC improves survivability in early game and some in mid game content, its effectiveness reduces the higher level you get while the specialty gear to grind for increases. Once you get to epics, AC is pretty useless.

With the announced changes to Epic mob to-hit functionality in U5, this statement may be incorrect. If so, then having to make decisions between DPS and AC may not be such an obvious choice moving forward.

[Timjc86]

They might be useless in a group setting but when I'm soloing leveling a barb or fighter I certainly want free self healing, faster movement for zerging and AC.

So soloing utility at mid levels in a group oriented multiplayer game is justification enough for less DPS and less survivability at end game when those are the two things that matter the most by far?

AC requirements at low levels are low enough that any class can reach a meaningful level. Even meaningful midgame AC is possible with the right gear.

Barbs move faster than monks until level 6 when they're equal. It's not until level 9 that monks start moving a little faster. Any class can reach fast speeds with striding items and/or haste pots.

Monk self healing via Curse of Healing (for those monks that chose to go Light path and not Dark) is fairly limited. Monk self healing via Wholeness of Body takes a lot of down time and is on a long cool down. My monks have to buy and chug stacks of Cure Serious pots just like all of my other characters.

If you get what you want and monk gets more DPS while THF and TWF get nerfed I definately wan't my utility.

I don't understand what you're saying here. As for utility, barbs and fighters can stun much better than a monk. They're also much more survivable. While doing more DPS.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I have not caught up reading the thread yet but I wanted to address this while I was here.

If this is true Borro0, why did Eladrin elude to adjusting greensteel weapons in the future if this nerf was not made now. The only "lag inducing" difference between greensteel and loot gen weapons is that greensteel has a few added effects that require a few more RNG pulls. It sounded to me like this was a contributor to lag.

Die rolls do not take many calculations. Doing Dr or energy resistance or ablative Dr calcs likely has a lot more of an impact on server CPU. Then there's the whole network packet issue where each proc on a weapon potentially has its own data transmission path.

Garth

[IronClan]

First of all, what the hell are you talking about? According to 'my sig'? What?

Didn't realize you changed it, but the one that used to say how 4th edition players hate you so.