Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[SquelchHU]

Yeah, that's it. Because myDDO never bugs when you reroll later.
Or when you do it on purpose to avoid the myDDO snobs.

Yes, MYDDO often bugs with permadeath characters.

Permadeath characters also often encounter the negative consequences of their chosen ruleset around level 10 or so, causing them to rarely have any experience or feedback about the game beyond well... the content available at first release, really.

If you're that scared of people knowing who you are then post screenshots of the character sheet with your name blacked out.

Of course, you know and I know the real reason you are refusing to answer this.

It most definitely does, because if you're one of those people that just post for the sake of it and don't even spend an ounce of time ingame then your opinion is irrelevant. You say you have TWFs then prove it and post their names. I have TWFs and ALL my friends that I play with which are the ELITE of Argo have TWFs and all of them are against this nerf...

I personally do not think I have ran with Galactius but I am on the same server, and in the same channel.

[WirelessJoe]

While you are absolutely correct, it does seem rather unfair to someone who is locked into a subscription that won't expire for awhile.
To use your analogy, it would be akin to paying 6 months in advance to rent your neighbor's porsche and then a week after he trades it in for a station wagon or something.

More like you lease a Porsche for six months, except after the first month the rental agency sneaks into your garage and installs a governor so you can't go over 55 MPH because it's not fair to the other cars.

[Visty]

I'm asking a question not making a statement

well then: answer: balancing

[TheDearLeader]

Two Weapon Fighting comes at a much higher cost to the player using it. Here’s (a bunch, sorry) of food for thought.

*Feats Cost* – At level 20, non-humans have base 7 feats, human 8.
-To be good, TWFers need at least : Toughness, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, + (PA or OTWF, I’ve heard varying opinions). That’s 5 feats right there. They will also likely take Exotic : Khopesh, and Imp. Crit : Slashing. That is all 7 base feats for a non-human. A human is afforded the ability to take PA and OTWF, but again, all 8 base feats are now gone.
-To be good, THF need at least : Toughness, Power Attack, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Imp. Crit of their choice. So, THFers have more free-ish feats in their arsenal, need no exotic weapon feat, and also don’t have to make a judgment call on whether or not to pick up PA. They can take that 7th or perhaps even 8th base feat slot and fill it with another Toughness Feat, a second Imp. Crit, whatever.

*Monetary* Cost –
• Green Steel – Takes twice as many rare items, such as Shards of Power and Large Ingredients to make an effective TWFer. Example : In the same time a TWFer can make their dual Min II Khopeshes, a THFer now has both their Min II Greataxe, and their Min II Accessory.
• Epic Items – Takes twice as many Epic Scrolls/Seals/Shards to make, takes twice as many Epic Dungeon/Raid Tokens to slot. That Epic SoS, slotted with Good (Or Silver, for Pure Pallies) in its Red slot is easier to achieve that two Epic Chaosblades, for example.
• Stone of Change Rituals – Same. Twice as many collectables are required to get Force/Force Criticals.
• Buying AH-able items – For every one weapons, named or non-named, a THFer buys, a TWFer better buy two.

*Inventory Cost* – It takes twice as many backpack/bank/shared bank slots for a TWFer to hold their Devil/Portal/Trash Beaters, Vorpals, etc. Makes inventory space super cramped, if someone specializes beyond their Min II Khopesh Set.

*Ability Points Cost* – To be a TWFer, one needs at least Str/Dex/Con. Dex 17 for GTWF. To be a THFer, one needs only Str/Con. Forget what other class-specific abilities you may need to get by. Builds often have to sacrifice Strength to-hit and damage, or hit points, or both, to be able to go down this special feat chain. THFers can dump stat Dex, and get back at a minimum 8 Ability Points with +2 Tome, 13 Points without.

In sum, I could roll a TWF and THF, say, Human Paladin, tomorrow. I could play both for exactly the same amount of time. And in the same time that the TWFing build would be fit for high-end content, the THFing build could have (+45 GS, +22 Toughness,+20~40 Extra Con) 87~107 extra hit points, and possibly a higher Charisma score for better LoH, Saves, Smites. When looking at this, the THF build really does seem like the Lazy/Poor man’s build, as it’ll take the TWFer much longer to get to the same level as the THFer in areas other than DPS. It’s a trade-off, more DPS versus more everything else, and now we’re saying that trading away every other facet of our characters’ creation is overpowered?

[IronClan]

So by this logic anything that most people do not like MUST be good for game balance and the fact that they built them by the rules in place matters for nothing, they are owed nothing and thier outcry is only because of thier ignorance

^^^This is just a logical fallacy; TWF is overly powerfull, thus it's unbalanced, and thus is popular because everyone likes an advantage. Because it's very popular the those players who are very self centered and only care about their own characters will go into a rage trying to talk the Developers out of balancing it. It's popularity makes no difference what so ever... The popularity is a byproduct of the imbalance... Saying that it shouldn't be balanced because it is so overwhelmingly popular is circular logic...

In P&P (properly run non monty hall campaigns) TWF is supposed to be costly enough and specialized enough that it's LESS common than other fighting styles for non rangers... Not undesirable just having a price that's high enough that not everyone takes it... S&B is supposed to actually be the best balance between defense and damage and THF is supposed to be the major damage obviously... Of course most P&P campaigns not run by horrible DM's also tend to not be dominated by munchkins...

[Visty]

It’s a trade-off, more DPS versus more everything else, and now we’re saying that trading away every other facet of our characters’ creation is overpowered?

yes, its overpwowered even if it costs more

see few pages back for that

[Consumer]

Monks are allready the most DPS deprived meele class, and require the most farming (2 ToD rings) to even reach their true potential. Please evaluate this accordingly. Perhaps give unarmed a BASE 40% chance of off-hand attacks (without feats) so it can hit 100% with 3 feats.

How many Greensteel weapons does a monk farm for?

How many ToD rings does a Barbarian or Fighter wear?

How many epic weapons does a monk craft?

Until a Barb gets 70+ AC, equal movement speed and self healing your DPS should not come close.

[Galacticus]

chars can still multiclass

Yes obviously they can but what will the effect be if lets say my toon is a 12/6/2 Ftr/Rang/Rog...

I'm not a number cruncher but I would like to see the effect current to proposed...

[Visty]

Yes obviously they can but what will the effect be if lets say my toon is a 12/6/2 Ftr/Rang/Rog...

I'm not a number cruncher but I would like to see the effect current to proposed...

100% mainhand, 90% offhand and the fighter hasteboost

thats what you will have

[TheDearLeader]

yes, its overpwowered even if it costs more

see few pages back for that

Apologies, but I'm not even going to take this post into consideration. Looking at the post times, this post was entered two minutes after I submitted mine. I can't expect you to have actually refreshed, read my post, and truly digested the information contained within, considered its in-game ramifications before making such a response.

Overpowered. Costs more. Funny, because if I go buy a truck tomorrow, I expect a V8 to cost more than a V6, don't you? Likewise, I expect a higher-DPS build to have more costs and drawbacks.

Visty, I see you've been very active in this thread until this point, but I feel you have nothing more constructive to contribute to this debate. Your piece has been said, as has mine. Lets leave it at that, shall we?

[Calebro]

SquelchU:
You notice how I never quote you? That's because I only see your posts when I'm not logged in.

Just because you see a single toon in a PD guild doesn't mean that all of my toons are. Stop making assumptions.

[Consumer]

Yes obviously they can but what will the effect be if lets say my toon is a 12/6/2 Ftr/Rang/Rog...

I'm not a number cruncher but I would like to see the effect current to proposed...

I shall math it for you.

I'm guessing you have 1d6+3 SA from the rogue levels and will be using my equipment setup.

[Galacticus]

^^^This is just a logical fallacy; TWF is overly powerfull, thus it's unbalanced, and thus is popular because everyone likes an advantage. Because it's very popular the those players who are very self centered and only care about their own characters will go into a rage trying to talk the Developers out of balancing it. It's popularity makes no difference what so ever... The popularity is a byproduct of the imbalance... Saying that it shouldn't be balanced because it is so overwhelmingly popular is circular logic...

In P&P (properly run non monty hall campaigns) TWF is supposed to be costly enough and specialized enough that it's LESS common than other fighting styles for non rangers... Not undesirable just having a price that's high enough that not everyone takes it... S&B is supposed to actually be the best balance between defense and damage and THF is supposed to be the major damage obviously... Of course most P&P campaigns not run by horrible DM's also tend to not be dominated by munchkins...

This is not PnP this game lost that flavor a long time ago...and you were doing fine till you starting talking munchkins...

[Visty]

Apologies, but I'm not even going to take this post into consideration. Looking at the post times, this post was entered two minutes after I submitted mine. I can't expect you to have actually refreshed, read my post, and truly digested the information contained within, considered its in-game ramifications before making such a response.

Overpowered. Costs more. Funny, because if I go buy a truck tomorrow, I expect a V8 to cost more than a V6, don't you? Likewise, I expect a higher-DPS build to have more costs and drawbacks.

Visty, I see you've been very active in this thread until this point, but I feel you have nothing more constructive to contribute to this debate. Your piece has been said, as has mine. Lets leave it at that, shall we?

if my V6 is the fastest in the world and your V8 the fastest and we are in a race where we have to enter the finish line at the same time while driving full speed: yes, your V8 is overpowered

[Timjc86]

How many Greensteel weapons does a monk farm for?

How many ToD rings does a Barbarian or Fighter wear?

How many epic weapons does a monk craft?

Until a Barb gets 70+ AC, equal movement speed and self healing your DPS should not come close.

My monk has 35 AC. You only get it if you build and gear (i.e. sacrifice) for it. Not to mention that 70 AC is the same as 2 AC in epic content.

You're seriously using movement speed as a justification as to why one class should be disadvantaged in terms of DPS over the other? I'm sorry, but I never see an LFM up saying "MUST HAVE 160% MOVEMENT SPEED, WILL BE MYDDOED!"

Self healing is not gauranteed. Not every monk is a light monk. Moreover, that self healing is very minimal. For it to be useful in end game content the character must have an extreme amount of healing amp, which costs both gear and AP.

Edit: Monks don't farm for greensteel weapons because they can't. Kamas and quarterstaves are woefully inadequate compared to handwraps - of which greensteel variants do not exist. Monks have been asking for them.

Epic weapons are in the same boat. I can't craft any for my monk because there aren't any he could use. Monks have been asking for this as well.

Other classes are able to equip the same # of ToD rings as monks, but the benefits are much more significant for monks. I should also add that the importance of unarmed bursting effects on ToD rings for monks locks them out of the primary source of +2 exceptional stat bonuses which every other class can get on ToD rings.

[Galacticus]

I shall math it for you.

I'm guessing you have 1d6+3 SA from the rogue levels and will be using my equipment setup.

DO IT!!!

I wanted to reincarnate into that build but have hesitations now

[SquelchHU]

^^^This is just a logical fallacy; TWF is overly powerfull, thus it's unbalanced, and thus is popular because everyone likes an advantage. Because it's very popular the those players who are very self centered and only care about their own characters will go into a rage trying to talk the Developers out of balancing it. It's popularity makes no difference what so ever... The popularity is a byproduct of the imbalance... Saying that it shouldn't be balanced because it is so overwhelmingly popular is circular logic...

In P&P (properly run non monty hall campaigns) TWF is supposed to be costly enough and specialized enough that it's LESS common than other fighting styles for non rangers... Not undesirable just having a price that's high enough that not everyone takes it... S&B is supposed to actually be the best balance between defense and damage and THF is supposed to be the major damage obviously... Of course most P&P campaigns not run by horrible DM's also tend to not be dominated by munchkins...

Fail. In PnP TWF is all about paying hard in feats, gear, and opportunity cost for the privilege of sucking. The ONLY reason so many people do it anyways (aside from not knowing this basic mathematic fact of course) is because Driz'zt was a TWFer, so they are too.

Sword and board is supposed to trade offense for defense, but all that happens is you die just as quickly while doing less damage (and thus have a much lower chance of saving yourself from death). That leaves THF as the only valid option... unless you're playing 'non monty haul' as you put it, in which case all non casters are automatically and completely irrelevant instead of just all the non THFers.

[Grendyll]

The problem is not "excessive dice rolls." As Eladrin has already explained, rolling a dice is about the lightest operation there is. What was taxing on the server was physics detection check, which is why they get cut by more than a half in Eladrin's proposed change.

What you suggest wouldn't reduce lag in any meaningful way.

I have not caught up reading the thread yet but I wanted to address this while I was here.

If this is true Borro0, why did Eladrin elude to adjusting greensteel weapons in the future if this nerf was not made now. The only "lag inducing" difference between greensteel and loot gen weapons is that greensteel has a few added effects that require a few more RNG pulls. It sounded to me like this was a contributor to lag.

[eonfreon]

^^^This is just a logical fallacy; TWF is overly powerfull, thus it's unbalanced, and thus is popular because everyone likes an advantage. Because it's very popular the those players who are very self centered and only care about their own characters will go into a rage trying to talk the Developers out of balancing it. It's popularity makes no difference what so ever... The popularity is a byproduct of the imbalance... Saying that it shouldn't be balanced because it is so overwhelmingly popular is circular logic...

In P&P (properly run non monty hall campaigns) TWF is supposed to be costly enough and specialized enough that it's LESS common than other fighting styles for non rangers... Not undesirable just having a price that's high enough that not everyone takes it... S&B is supposed to actually be the best balance between defense and damage and THF is supposed to be the major damage obviously... Of course most P&P campaigns not run by horrible DM's also tend to not be dominated by munchkins...

Actually, for the most part that's how it was in DDO as well. TWF was rather uncommon. It was far easier to level up a THF because it was far easier to build without having to know too much about the game (Create a melee, max out Str, distribute other stats as needed, pick up a Great axe and voila, easy). As you learned more about Feats you began to see the THF and TWF Feats. If you followed the simple formula of maxing out Strength and Con you automatically could qualify for the full THF Feat Line. Most discovered the versatility and power of TWF as they played the game, read the forums, and watched more experienced players use TWF.
While playing most folks began to accumulate nice sets of weapons.
Then after quite a bit of the knowledge of the game rules, how to qualify and build for TWf, and having decent enough gear to make it viable, most folks rolled up a TWF to see how good it really was.
In the case of creating a viable TWF Paladin for instance it was often desirable to have earned 32 Pointers.
The game simply was quite static for awhile. Eventually it was nigh-impossible not to have an incredible amount of weapons and gear. And once your character slots were full and you wished to play on the same server because of Guilds and Friends, but you wanted to create more characters, you had to make choices of who to delete.
In many cases I deleted my THF builds simply because it was easier to distribute their lesser amount of gear then my TWF builds.

Not saying that makes it fair or unfair, but it's what happens when people play far more often then I can ever remember playing PnP, and the speed is far greater.
There is no need to be insulting to players (and Turbine since they are the "bad DM's" you mention in this case) simply because the game has led to the current state which the players basically play.

[SquelchHU]

SquelchHU:
You notice how I never quote you? That's because I only see your posts when I'm not logged in.

Just because you see a single toon in a PD guild doesn't mean that all of my toons are. Stop making assumptions.

Good for you. Now name your toons or stop talking about something you have no experience with.