Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Visty]

Isn't it 5 less Ac? for the THF -1 0 +1 +2 +3 is a delta of 5 between a 8 dex THF and a 17 dex TWF and with one more point in Dex for 18 it's a 6 point difference.

i was showing the differance only based on dex 8 vs 17

but youre right, there is even more which will add to it

[Swedishchef]

and again:
the lag fix isnt related to the twf nerf



warchanters can still hit, they just have 20% less offhand attacks

REALY, then why do they nerf the dps? (in both camps twf and thf) BC they can, bc they didn´t think b4 implementing green steel or eSOS?

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content).

Yes, but it is still a nerf either way, if you can´t see that i don´t know.

[Visty]

REALY, then why do they nerf the dps? (in both camps twf and thf) BC they can, bc they didn´t think b4 implementing green steel or eSOS.

they are nerfing twf cause they think its overpowered. and the small nerf to thf is that thf isnt the new king after twf gets the hit and to make both kinda equal

Yes, but it is still a nerf either way, if you can´t see that i don´t now.

it is a nerf, yes, just not related to the lag fix

[Swedishchef]

they are nerfing twf cause they think its overpowered. and the small nerf to thf is that thf isnt the new king after twf gets the hit and to make both kinda equal


it is a nerf, yes, just not related to the lag fix

How is it not related when Eladrin stated this is a way for them to attack the dps lagg issue?

[Razcar]

So, when they go through with this nerf, how will the thousands of players affected by it get compensated?

• +20 Hearts of Wood for each character, so people can respec into THF and get rid of antiquities like Tempest 1
• Free, and complete Greensteel deconstruction
• Weapon transformation. Take your weapon and make it another type
• A sizeable combat boost to rogues, bards and everyone else falling in the so appropriately named "Other" category
• A new THF weapon type introduced besides the blunt and worthless quarterstaff, given to rogues and monks. How about scythe?

What will we get? Nothing.

[Visty]

How is it not related when Eladrin stated this is a way for them to attack the dps lagg issue?

maybe it has a small impact but the nerf is a differant point as they could have fixed the lag without touching twf

reread the op and eladrins long response on page 22 and you will see it

[Swedishchef]

maybe it has a small impact but the nerf is a differant point

So it is related then, good that you acctualy understand what i and many others are saying then.

I´ve read it and it seems now you have aswell. Good for you.

[User164]

Just do away with MONKS if they are the problem. They have been nothing but trouble for the DEV's and other players, from day one. Leave or improve the core class's.

[Visty]

So it is related then, good that you acctualy understand what i and many others are saying then.

I´ve read it and it seems now you have aswell. Good for you.

check my edited post above, you quoted too fast

fixing lag could be done while leaving twf alone too

[Swedishchef]

So, when they go through with this nerf, how will the thousands of players affected by it get compensated?

• +20 Hearts of Wood for each character, so people can respec into THF and get rid of antiquities like Tempest 1
• Free, and complete Greensteel deconstruction
• Weapon transformation. Take your weapon and make it another type
• A sizeable combat boost to rogues, bards and everyone else falling in the so appropriately named "Other" category
• A new THF weapon type introduced besides the blunt and worthless quarterstaff, given to rogues and monks. How about scythe?

What will we get? Nothing.

We will get (according to visty) no lag YAY

[Calebro]

Yes, but it is still a nerf either way, if you can´t see that i don´t now.

Yes, it is. Eldarin even admitted it as such in the OP that you quoted, although you conveniently left that part out of your quote.
Not all nerfs are bad.
The fact is, in PvE oriented game (as opposed to PvP oriented games) almost all nerfs are for the betterment of the game. The people effected by those nerfs will invariably cry Foul when it happens, but that doesn't in itself make it a bad thing.

The people are all up in arms because they think that Turbine is out to get them by nerfing their toons. But if no nerf was needed, then why do 3/4 of the melee population go TWF, with the sole exception being Barbarians and players looking to eventually acquire the eSoS?
If TWF wasn't ahead of THF, this wouldn't be the case.
So everyone rolled TWF toons to take advantage of the huge advantage that they have. Everyone saw what was clearly better and did it. Then eSoS came along, which was an admitted blunder on their part, so it stands to reason that they intend to fix that blunder eventually. When this happens, TWF will still outpace THF.
What they're attempting to do is nip that in the bud when they fiddle with the TWF off hand code. If they're already going into the off hand code, now is the perfect time to start the TWF nerf process.

I know many people are upset by it, but the sheer number of people upset by it should give you an indication that it was needed. Notice the few posts regarding the THF glancing blows nerf, which isn't insignificant to them. The few people upset by that vs. the large number of people upset by the TWF nerf just shows the ratio of TWFers to THFers.
If there is such a huge difference in the ratio, doesn't that say something about balance in itself?

Nerfs = attempts at game balance
Game balance = good

[Swedishchef]

check my edited post above, you quoted too fast

fixing lag could be done while leaving twf alone too

You mean you type to slow?

[Razcar]

bards/rogues/meleecasters
all those will loose some of their dps

but you shouldnt forget that they still have spells/songs/traps at their proposel

Quit joking dude, your hilarious sarcasm is gonna make me burst a kidney from laughing over here. Traps, lmao

[Souless]

No offense taken, but I disagree. Taking a mix of classes to get much improved armor class via a monk wisdom bonus, to be able to use heal scrolls, have minishot, get extra attack speed, strikes me as a lot more of a min/maxer than some barb, rogue, monk or ftr getting a capstone.

Then u r sadly mistaken.....min/max pure builds are out there....and there is no avoiding it...

The Bytcher~

Souless/Xbow/Valice/Tazzor/Spectyr/Vampir/Xindao/Richgirl

[Visty]

Quit joking dude, your hilarious sarcasm is gonna make me burst a kidney from laughing over here. Traps, lmao

the trap part was sarcasm, youre right
but im sure they will introduce something to make up for that

[Swedishchef]

Yes, it is. Eldarin even admitted it as such in the OP that you quoted, although you conveniently left that part out of your quote.
Not all nerfs are bad.
The fact is, in PvE oriented game (as opposed to PvP oriented games) almost all nerfs are for the betterment of the game. The people effected by those nerfs will invariably cry Foul when it happens, but that doesn't in itself make it a bad thing.

The people are all up in arms because they think that Turbine is out to get them by nerfing their toons. But if no nerf was needed, then why do 3/4 of the melee population go TWF, with the sole exception being Barbarians and players looking to eventually acquire the eSoS?
If TWF wasn't ahead of THF, this wouldn't be the case.
So everyone rolled TWF toons to take advantage of the huge advantage that they have. Everyone saw what was clearly better and did it. Then eSoS came along, which was an admitted blunder on their part, so it stands to reason that they intend to fix that blunder eventually. When this happens, TWF will still outpace THF.
What they're attempting to do is nip that in the bud when they fiddle with the TWF off hand code. If they're already going into the off hand code, now is the perfect time to start the TWF nerf process.

I know many people are upset by it, but the sheer number of people upset by it should give you an indication that it was needed. Notice the few posts regarding the THF glancing blows nerf, which isn't insignificant to them. The few people upset by that vs. the large number of people upset by the TWF nerf just shows the ratio of TWFers to THFers.
If there is such a huge difference in the ratio, doesn't that say something about balance in itself?

Nerfs = attempts at game balance
Game balance = good

Balance=good yes but.....

Then i suggest they also make S&B a vaild dps chooise bc i Soviet everyone should be equal. GO COMMIES

[Halock]

dont forget that B gets more attacks then A

someone has a response to this

THF:140 swings per minuit , and 70 glancing blows = 210 per minuit
TWF: 110 swings per minuit, and 100% offhand hooks = 220 per minuit
Reality: Very little difference in overall attack rate.

[Tomalon]

So it looks like the feedback has generally been against this change, a few other good options have been thrown out by the player base, now lets see if El is really listening or not.

I for one think he isnt! Never has! does his own thing regardless of what we think!

[Calebro]

Balance=good yes but.....

Then i suggest they also make S&B a vaild dps chooise bc i Soviet everyone should be equal. GO COMMIES

The original chart would have made S&B a much more viable option, which I commented on about 60 pages ago.
By reducing TWF DPS (and THF DPS with the glancing blows nerf) S&B became viable once again. The new numbers don't reflect that, but the old ones would have.
Sure, they'd lag behind, but not to such a degree that they'd automatically be considered GIMP immediately.

[ChadeLanart]

I know many people are upset by it, but the sheer number of people upset by it should give you an indication that it was needed. Notice the few posts regarding the THF glancing blows nerf, which isn't insignificant to them. The few people upset by that vs. the large number of people upset by the TWF nerf just shows the ratio of TWFers to THFers.
If there is such a huge difference in the ratio, doesn't that say something about balance in itself?

Nerfs = attempts at game balance
Game balance = good

So by this logic anything that most people do not like MUST be good for game balance and the fact that they built them by the rules in place matters for nothing, they are owed nothing and thier outcry is only because of thier ignorance