Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Krag]

what do fighters have? or barbs?
you got it, nothing

Wrong.
Barbs have crowd control (trip, stunning blow), speed and survivability.

[Delacroix21]

---

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

	Doublestrike	Bonus	Main hand	Off hand
No feats	0	20%	100%		20%
TWF		0	+20%	100%		40%
ITWF		0	+20%	100%		60%
GTWF		0	+20%	100%		80%
STWF		0	+20%	100%		100%
Tempest I	0	+10%	100%		90%
Tempest II	0	+10%	100%		100% 
Tempest III	+5%*	0	105%		100%
Wind IV		+10%	0	110%		80%
Zeal		+10%	0	110%		80%
Alacrity	+10%	0	110%		80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

This still puts monks at an even greater DPS disadvantage vs. other TWF classes then they are now. With Fighters/Rangers etc. having 20% more offhand attacks through Superior TWF, monks will be left behind in the dps charts.


Think about it... currently unarmed ALLREADY attacks more times per minute then regular TWF, yet it STILL does less dps (due to better weapon options, crit multipliers, crit ranges of weapons). This change will actually give monks LESS attacks per minute then a similar fighter/ranger etc. and just make things worse.


Ranger (assume 100 attacks)
105 main hand (100 + 5 double hits)
100 off-hand
= 205 total

Monk LIVE (assume 110 attacks do to unarmed speed)
110 main hand
110 off hand
=210 total (despite this higher number their dps is still the lowest!)

Monk Update 5 (assume 110 attacks)
121 main hand (110 + 11 double hits)
80 off-hand
= 201 total (DPS nerf to lowest meele dps class)


Monks are allready the most DPS deprived meele class, and require the most farming (2 ToD rings) to even reach their true potential. Please evaluate this accordingly. Perhaps give unarmed a BASE 40% chance of off-hand attacks (without feats) so it can hit 100% with 3 feats.

[Consumer]

No.
This is exactly the problem with the power creep. This was the reasoning when eSoS was created. Creating 1 handed weapons to rival it is the exact WRONG thing to do.

It might be the wrong thing to do but nerfing the epic sos is not an option now that so many have been created, just as nerfing TWF is not a good idea either. With these changes and without epic sos THF will be a joke compared to STWF.

[Visty]

Wrong.
Barbs have crowd control (trip, stunning blow), speed and survivability.

well, if you kill a mob by running away from it and surviving alot of attacks, you win the game

but ok, i take your reason as ok...exlude barbs from taking stwf...your words, im fine with that

[Visty]

It might be the wrong thing to do but nerfing the epic sos is not an option now that so many have been created, just as nerfing TWF is not a good idea either. With these changes and without epic sos THF will be a joke compared to STWF.

just like it is currently

so nothing changes

[stoc]

All I know is that I would expect one +3 Heart of Wood in each of my char inventory if this goes live. Just in case you nerf my toons again.

[Calebro]

just like it is currently

so nothing changes

Which, again, is why I preferred the original numbers. Or at least some middle ground.

[Delacroix21]

You guys are De-railing the thread withh Off-Topic chat. Please PM each other.

[Visty]

Which, again, is why I preferred the original numbers.

even when the new numbers put less load on the servers?

dont you want the lag fixed?

[Calebro]

even when the new numbers put less load on the servers?

dont you want the lag fixed?

By original numbers, I meant the original off hand chart in the OP, before the numbers were changed.
It did a much better job of closing the TWF/THF gap IMO, which was lost when everyone screamed Nerf.

[Visty]

By original numbers, I meant the original off hand chart in the OP, before the numbers were changed.
It did a much better job of closing the TWF/THF gap IMO, which was lost when everyone screamed Nerf.

ah ok, then i got your post wrong
sorry for that

thought you meant the current numbers as you said original numbers

[Calebro]

ah ok, then i got your post wrong
sorry for that

thought you meant the current numbers as you said original numbers

To be honest, I think some middle ground between those numbers and the new ones would be just about perfect.
I'm probably the only one.

[Krag]

well, if you kill a mob by running away from it and suviving alot of attacks, you win the game

but ok, i take your reason as ok...exlude barbs from taking stwf...your words, im fine with that

As long as I stay alive, I will kill my enemy sooner or later. You know, dead rogues deal 0 damage. And do not forget about overhealing. Ask any cleric if they like to heal 150hp rogues or 800hp barbarians.

Speed is essential for skipping long/difficult combats when farming exp. Yes, some battles are won with legs, not swords.

[Deathseeker]

Haven't seen anyone talk about this yet:
So the goal of these changes is both to reduce the dps lag caused by twf/monk.. And to reduce TWF dps a bit to balance it more towards THF.

Because most endgame players know if you take 5 TWF into say VoN6 epic and they all attack the dragon, DPS lag is 99% gaurenteed, the dragon will not appear to be moving and thus predicting the breath is difficult and often leads to lag deaths.

Vs 5, 6,7 or even more players with THF in the same area and no twf.. You will almost never see any lag.

So the problem is twf. Almost exclusively. Sure THF causes calculations too, but ones that the servers have proven to be able to keep up with for the most part, so no nerfs are needed.

Yet..

You thross in a direct nerf to THF as well?!?!

I don't see the purpose of this. If your trying to bring TWF dps down cloase to THF, why are you also nerfing THF?

The big draw for me and Im sure a lot of players is the fast pacced active combat of the game. THF - with the GTHF feat allows you to keep moving and attack numerious enemies at once, to help draw agro off you party, and do some (not much) aoe damage as well. Most players understand that doing this to a big pack of mosnters while standing still just plain doesn't work as the enemies move too fast and your attack range ismply even very long while standing still.

That just isn't any fun.

Why directly nerf GTHF's ability to deal damage to many enemies while moving?

It seems to me these changes impact the fighter the most, especially the TWF fighter, but also nerf the THF one.. And to top it off for fighters - it makes hte GTHF feat almost entirely worthless, since the primary reason to take it is to add that glancing blow attack while moving.
Fighters would become a stronger class if DDO had more and better feats. Rightnow they suffer a bit as a class because most of the best feat easily fit into the 7/8 feat profile of classes like Rogues, Paladins and Barbarians who get no bonus feats. This change will only make it worse ,as they could safely drop GTHF without any big loss.

So it's a nerf. Not one that will help dps lag, not one that will help balance, and not one that anyone asked for. Why do it?

If the idea is to somewher reduce THF AOE dmg output because you feel the nerfs being done to TWF are too severe to "even" it out.. Why go with such an EXTREME approach. As this change goes from "some aoe damage while moving" to "ZERO, None at all ever AOE dmg while moving".. Rather extreme nerf. If glancing blows were to be nerfed like TWF, they should at least get some smaller chance to proc some damage while moving, and not have it entirely taken away without cause.

Of everything I've read, this change bugs me the most. The balance issues with the TWF changes will get tweaked and may move some build supremecy around a bit, but I dont see them changing how the game is actually played.

However, the glancing blow change will actually change how we play, not just the numerical comparisons between classes. Standing still to get glancing blows is not cool from a pure "it isnt as fun" perspective.

Maybe this reduces some collision detection, but this one changes not just the dps calcs but actual playstyle, which I don't like.

I'll reserve the rest of my opinion on the other changes for a while but at first glance Im open to them. But this one isn't good IMO.

[Angelus_dead]

The classes that get hit the most are the feat starved ones (e.g. melee fvs/clerics) and those without full bab (e.g. rogues, monks), but even those ones are only being hit with maybe a 15% dps loss.

To experiment with what that's like, go find some Rogue players and try convincing them to wear Boots of Anchoring into regular dungeons so they're immune to the 15% attack speed from Haste. See how much they enjoy it...

[greenthumb]

What a polite way to nerf our TWF toons, all wrapped up nicely in a 'reduce lag package'. Do you sell ice to Eskimos?

Since most of my toons are capped and TWF'ers I would be extremely unhappy to see their dps drop.

Most of the lag I hear others complain about, mine is not that bad, could be resolved with better equiped servers.Why not tone down the useless feedback settings from the servers, just like everyone turning off all feedback, unchecking the 'any' box on the who page etc. There are multiple routes to check before changing the way the toon attack and the damage they do.

I think this is going to happen, i think we have no say in the matter and this is just a way for the Dev's to say we gave you a chance to voice your opinion and we went this way. I have spent the better part of 2 years working on my toons, correcting mistakes, adapting to new content etc, i would not want to start over because their simple solution to solve dps lag is to reduce dps.

[Swedishchef]

To experiment with what that's like, go find some Rogue players and try convincing them to wear Boots of Anchoring into regular dungeons so they're immune to the 15% attack speed from Haste. See how much they enjoy it...

+1

or try to find a warchanter who wants to sit ringside and wait for the grp to complete the quest.

[Visty]

What a polite way to nerf our TWF toons, all wrapped up nicely in a 'reduce lag package'. Do you sell ice to Eskimos?

Since most of my toons are capped and TWF'ers I would be extremely unhappy to see their dps drop.

Most of the lag I hear others complain about, mine is not that bad, could be resolved with better equiped servers.Why not tone down the useless feedback settings from the servers, just like everyone turning off all feedback, unchecking the 'any' box on the who page etc. There are multiple routes to check before changing the way the toon attack and the damage they do.

I think this is going to happen, i think we have no say in the matter and this is just a way for the Dev's to say we gave you a chance to voice your opinion and we went this way. I have spent the better part of 2 years working on my toons, correcting mistakes, adapting to new content etc, i would not want to start over because their simple solution to solve dps lag is to reduce dps.

and again:
the lag fix isnt related to the twf nerf

+1

or try to find a warchanter who wants to sit ringside and wait for the grp to complete the quest.

warchanters can still hit, they just have 20% less offhand attacks

[Razcar]

Isn't that what the attack roll is to determine?

You would think so. It's like the Emperor's New Clothes. But he's naked? No he isn't! But this doesn't make any sense? Yes it does!

[IronClan]

more ac is more ac. for that reason we see all those monk splashs, to reach some ac to avoiding a few hits

and its more then 1 ac anyway, cause you need 17dex for gtw
the thf will have 8 dex
that alone is a differance of +4ac

Isn't it 5 less Ac? for the THF -1 0 +1 +2 +3 is a delta of 5 between a 8 dex THF and a 17 dex TWF and with one more point in Dex for 18 it's a 6 point difference.

what you and alot are also missin: not only twf losses some damage, thf does too. and yet you see only 1 person rambling about that
if twf isnt overpowered yet, then why are 80% of the players using it?

Yep, can't believe I'm in agreement with Visty the deafening silence about the THF twitch nerf suggests a lot (what was there ONE thread in general complaining about it?) Maybe two or three people here complain about it and they are apparently the biggest supporters of using the THF twitch/sploit?

Hell for some the THF nerf to twitch is a good deal... Now I can concentrate on Smites, stunning blows, trips, Divine Sacrifices and refreshing my rage clickie/DM III/Divine Power and eventually Zeal without being concerned over not doing the max possible DPS (not that I was really before but now I'm free of even considering it).

Dumping Dex costs THF any chance of even having relevant AC while leveling, even at lvl 4 with Full plate my Pali is getting hit almost every swing (I'm wearing Adamantine FP to block most of it but that wont do me much good in a level or three) which means much more resource useage and much less survivability when soloing...

It's also a difference of +5 to dex based skills with at least Balance +5 being a pretty nice perk for TWF, and with rangers or rogue splashes Move silently, Hide, Open Locks, Tumble getting +5 over someone who is THF...

The reality is that Dex has synergy with many TWF builds, and adding more of it will make the character better, maybe not at DPS but better is better...