Epic saves reduced in U5

[Hydro]

I disagree with this statement. Epic is supposed to be for all players who have reached level 20 and are not interested in just raiding, or in optomized every peice of loot by endlessly farming specific quests. There is no reason that Epic should be limited to the Uber loot l33t crowd.

I am going to assume you have never read the text that comes up when you select epic difficulty. Best of the best is not a fresh 20 with no gear, I might consider myself a great player but I am not going to drag my fresh level 20 Pally into epics until I get some Tod rings and hopefully an epic Sos.

Of course knowing your character is up to par is part of being one of the best, nothing worse then an extremely undergered player trying to join a tough raid/dungeon when all they are going to do is drag it down.

[Angelus_dead]

I am going to assume you have never read the text that comes up when you select epic difficulty. Best of the best

It would be foolish to act like that matters.

Difficulty checkboxes say a lot of things that bear no relation to reality- have you read what "Hard" says?

[Beethoven]

Good news. Excellent changes, except

Combat Expertise no longer breaks on spellcast. Instead, spell point costs are doubled while in the stance. (To maintain the "don't cast while this is on" flavor.)

While maintain "don't cast when in stance flavor" may be the goal, the more likely outcome is that it eliminates the self healing potential of AC builds using the ranger class unless they thought of splashing rogue for UMD.

There seems no disadvantage to using heal scrolls, whereas using maximized Cure Serious is no longer a viable option. It'd mean thinking of turning off CE before casting, then cast, then turn it back on in the midst of combat.

Ultimately this change makes Exploiter builds even more superior to other variants, leaving the rest little choice but either jump the bandwaggon or give up on self healing when trying to maintain AC. Paladins get hit too, but they can at least rely on loh.

[Calebro]

Good news. Excellent changes, except



While maintain "don't cast when in stance flavor" may be the goal, the more likely outcome is that it eliminates the self healing potential of AC builds using the ranger class unless they thought of splashing rogue for UMD.

There seems no disadvantage to using heal scrolls, whereas using maximized Cure Serious is no longer a viable option. It'd mean thinking of turning off CE before casting, then cast, then turn it back on in the midst of combat.

Ultimately this change makes Exploiter builds even more superior to other variants, leaving the rest little choice but either jump the bandwaggon or give up on self healing when trying to maintain AC. Paladins get hit too, but they can at least rely on loh.

With the extremely limited SP a Ranger has, he can't exactly be considered "self healing" by any means. Sure, he can drop a Cure once in a while, but this is a band-aid, not "healing."
But the time he gets his first healing spell, it's so small that it's useless to him.
Most of a Ranger's spells are long enough duration that CE shouldn't affect them.

Paladins, on the other hand, will have a tougher time with this, as Seph has pointed out.

[REALb0r3d]

We're considering this sort of more cautious tiered rollout. Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

Everyone's happy now.

[sephiroth1084]

With the extremely limited SP a Ranger has, he can't exactly be considered "self healing" by any means. Sure, he can drop a Cure once in a while, but this is a band-aid, not "healing."
But the time he gets his first healing spell, it's so small that it's useless to him.
Most of a Ranger's spells are long enough duration that CE shouldn't affect them.

Paladins, on the other hand, will have a tougher time with this, as Seph has pointed out.

Well, I should have included rangers as well. A ranger gets the same amount of SP as a paladin (more, actually, if you consider their ability to start with a higher Wis), and can just as easily pick up Empower Healing or Maximize, and even more free AP to pick up 3 or 4 ranks of Devotion. My ranger with EH and 3 or 4 ranks self-heals for 80-100 a pop, which, with around 500 SP (not nearly optimized), is very useful self-healing.

I really just don't see the need for CE to impose these kinds of penalties at all. The benefit gained for a primary caster is almost non-existent as they typically don't have enough AC for +5 to matter, whereas the penalty for the characters who would both benefit from the AC and get hit by the penalty (paladins, rangers, casting class-splashed tanks) is pretty large.

And with this change there is no longer any penalty for anyone but that small subset of characters, as folks with UMD and clickies, and monks, will no longer experience any issues with CE.

I say just get rid of all this nonsense, and allow CE to function like Power Attack: you turn it on, and it has an effect on your attack bonus and damage/AC and that's it. Casting spells doesn't bother it, activating clickies doesn't either, and the feat doesn't interfere with any activities other than your attack rolls and your inability to have both DPS and AC. Not having PA up is already a weak choice for most characters as it is.

[Beethoven]

With the extremely limited SP a Ranger has, he can't exactly be considered "self healing".

Eh, it's not hard to get roughly 650 SP on ranger if you can fit in a Shroud SP item. End game cures can hit 120-150 (with enhancements). Make the SP item Conc. Opposition and add a Torc to switch to when getting low on spellpoints and you can indeed reasonably self heal. I should know, I play one (and that would be also why it personally frustrates me a little).

Don't get me wrong. I am happy for the change that clickables no longer turn it off. It's great. What I am not getting is the other part - it's not like battlemages or non-rogue melee splashes are so vastly superior to UMD toons that the former needed a nerf.

What I wish is that the change would have been: "you now can use clickables without CE being turned off while casting spells will continue turn off CE." It probably made both sides happy.

[Calebro]

What I wish is that the change would have been: "you now can use clickables without CE being turned off while casting spells will continue turn off CE." It probably made both sides happy.

But herein lies the issue. Clickies are spells as far as the engine is concerned.
The only thing that differentiates them is SP cost, or the lack thereof.
I imagine coding CE to work as you described would be a massive job.

[sephiroth1084]

But herein lies the issue. Clickies are spells as far as the engine is concerned.
The only thing that differentiates them is SP cost, or the lack thereof.
I imagine coding CE to work as you described would be a massive job.

I agree, which is why I think CE should just have no cost attached to using it other than requiring a 13 Int, -5 attack and being unable to also have Power Attack running, which are both significant costs for almost any character but a wizard, and wizards typically gain almost no benefit form using CE anyway!

Besides, if the complaint was that people could get +5 AC without experiencing the attack penalty, why is CE usable by someone shield blocking and intimidating? Is that a problem? If that isn't, then a wizard with a 30-50 AC shouldn't be either!

[Calebro]

I agree, which is why I think CE should just have no cost attached to using it other than requiring a 13 Int, -5 attack and being unable to also have Power Attack running, which are both significant costs for almost any character but a wizard, and wizards typically gain almost no benefit form using CE anyway!

Besides, if the complaint was that people could get +5 AC without experiencing the attack penalty, why is CE usable by someone shield blocking and intimidating? Is that a problem? If that isn't, then a wizard with a 30-50 AC shouldn't be either!

I'd get behind that.

[Quijonsith]

As far as CE goes I'm glad they're looking at fixing it, but I'll reiterate my suggestion that it be turned off for a short duration when a spell is cast and after that duration have it turn itself back on.

[Beethoven]

I suppose you are right and I will admit that the change is better than the current situation.

[sephiroth1084]

As far as CE goes I'm glad they're looking at fixing it, but I'll reiterate my suggestion that it be turned off for a short duration when a spell is cast and after that duration have it turn itself back on.

A good suggestion. I'd prefer that to the current implementation and this preview of the future, though still don't see the need for any of this nonsense with deactivation and/or extra SP in the first place. Not the way the game is set-up now.

[Quijonsith]

A good suggestion. I'd prefer that to the current implementation and this preview of the future, though still don't see the need for any of this nonsense with deactivation and/or extra SP in the first place. Not the way the game is set-up now.

I agree that there isn't necessarily a 'need' for the turn on/off etc., but I also see where Turbine is trying to keep close to the source material in that combat expertise isn't supposed to be used while casting spells in a given round. My suggestion at least keeps that spirit in play as a compromise.

[sirgog]

The decrease to saves wasnt necessarily meant to buff casters (since they were making most DCs prior to) but rather a minor side-effect. The main effect was it made it so all tactical feats still have use/are desired at level 20 still.

Epic mobs still remain immune to all quick forms of dispatchment (death based effects, resistant to stat dmg, quick regen of neg lvls, etc) and have quite a significant boost to health. Party resources still are limited so it does take some more forethought than elite of similar quests. They (Turbine) are just trying to find the right balance for the new level of content so that it does not axe builds/feats that work well in previous parts of the game.

Mass Hold isn't all that different on Epics to what Wail of the Banshee would be like if it worked. A Will save drop of 5 is enough to make mobs go from saving 40% of the time (average hold duration: 2.5 ticks) to 15% of the time (average hold duration: 6.6 ticks).

[Rasczak]

This is a great start. I always thought that creating an epic/loot grind and then making none of the loot useful, was a poor show on time spent. Making it so that now if you do get the raid loot and epic loot for anything other than DPS, it's useful....me likes lots. Maybe now I'll pull out my intimi again for epics

[vVAnjilaVv]

The way I see it, unless ur specifically making an AC build...there is really no point in having CE, unless u need it as a pre-req.

Even so, if a caster does take CE and uses it...this is a change that's playing with fire....I mean extended, empowered, maxmized spells are a lot already...someone forgets to turn it off in the heat of battle it may well cause a party wipe.

I think this is another change that will just see every caster being screened before they join a group and asked if they use CE.

Make the change for the monk...that's great...I say leave it alone as it pertains to other classes tho.

[tinyelvis]

From a casters perspective, this whole debate is silly. Whether the will save is reduce +5, +10, or even increased by +5 will not really impact at all the epic quest for arcanes. It just comes down to how often you have to cast the enchantment. The same dumb dull multi mob effecting enchantment. Its not like you currently don't have the mana to keep the mobs held. A moderately spec'd arcane can easily do it.

I pity the designers here. This looks no win to me. If they reduce the saves, then poor spec'd ftp types get into the quests and can be more effective with this dull spell series. The elitist scream who let the riff raff into our game. While the ftp's realize how actually dull epic play really is. The result, more unhappy people complaining on the forum.

Wow, its hilarious how so many arguments by so many elitist all really boil down to keeping their share of this big dull lackluster pie away from the masses. Honestly, do you really grind with your toon so you can be king of Mass Hold Monster spell? Take a step back and actually think wrt an arcane just how little a 10 reduction will impact epic questing. Other than selfish territorializing, who really cares.

Now, if they open up death spell effects (i.e. finger, trap soul), that's news. That's something I would work toward. Dropping saves on their own is just smoke and mirrors.

[bartosy]

[Rasczak]

A good suggestion. I'd prefer that to the current implementation and this preview of the future, though still don't see the need for any of this nonsense with deactivation and/or extra SP in the first place. Not the way the game is set-up now.

I don't actually remember combat expertise stopping spell casting. The feat was a general feat meaning anyone could have it and basically implies that while fighting you can use part of your attack to defend. Without the feat you could only take -4 off attack and add +2 dodge whereas CE made it up to +5 dodge with a -5 attack.

Now in pnp terms it may be hard to convince a GM that while casting a somatic spell, you can use unarmed for defensive fighting (not likely imo) but on verbal spells there shouldn't be any issue. Now I'm not saying split them up since it's obvious in DDO that there is no practical application for spell casting since the only factor that is decided is component or not.
We get to already use sceptors etc in both hands with no penalty to spell casting. We get to use a shield while casting (with obvious SF if appplicable) so while I say the change is awesome, I would have to agree that for CE, you might as well just leave it on permanently like PA. PA Doesn't switch off when casting spells and CE works in the exact same way for combat in pnp. If you going to double spell points then you need to start putting on other penalties on spell casters nerfing them even more and causing more resentment towards the Firewaller Hate Club.

It definitely stands to reason that combat feats, abilities and skills should be usable without it turning off. In essence, you change your style of fighting to gain a bonus to AC at a cost to your offensive. You're fighting to defend and not attack so casting a spell, using trip, using a potion, using a scroll etc etc should not effect it at all. Your position is defensive and the feat allows you to do it more effectively.