Epic saves reduced in U5

[grodon9999]

Epic Trash will also have a variable penalty to attack rolls that nearly doubles the "potentially viable AC" band. Sort of like rolling a d20 to hit, and then subtracting another d20 from their attack roll.

Whoa - so what's the threshold of "useful" AC now in epic against trash? Be useful I mean stops an attack 50% of the time.

[jkm]

I'm curious... what kind of spellcaster/melee build uses Combat Expertise?

I think this is a GREAT change...

So how does CE work with clickables and dragonmarks? Before they would turn CE off, I'm guessing now it looks like CE will remain on with them (and double "SP cost" just won't apply)

not to mention that activating CE used to put your dragonmarks on a 30 second cooldown.

[SolarDawning]

Oh Eladrin...

...Did you ever know that you're my hero?

[moorewr]

Low AC characters will still be getting hit with full fledged hits. Higher AC characters will still get grazing hits, but those are much more manageable and don't bring on-hit effects along with them.

Not to pin you down, but what, roughly, would define high and low? Is a character with a 55 standing AC going to see benefit from their AC, for example?

[Visty]

Whats the remaining 4 lvls in that one Visty? I only see 15 from cleric and 1 from Barb.

the last 4 levels were cleric though i LRed into cleric18/fighter2 already for another feat

really should update that post but too lazy

[Monkey_Archer]

Whoa - so what's the threshold of "useful" AC now in epic against trash? Be useful I mean stops an attack 50% of the time.

Sounds like its going to be about 10 lower then it is now.

Example:
Lets say a monster has +70 to hit, making the effective ac range 71-90 (around 80 ac would be considered "useful")
Subtracting a d20 roll from that would make the effective ac range 51-89 (around 70 ac would then be considered useful)

[Thrudh]

talking about divine casters, yes

those which use intimidate, this for example

Okay, now I'm assuming that any divine caster that uses CE TODAY, probably tries not to cast a lot of spells while in that defensive mode, right? Since casting today immediately kicks you out of CE... And getting back in CE mode is a pain...

So in the future they will also have to try not to cast a lot of spells while in defensive mode... (but it's nice that they CAN if emergency healing is required).

The biggest problem for them is they will have to remember to turn CE off when they are in casting mode... And that could be painful...

So this change helps 98% of people who use CE (being able to use a clickable and keep CE on is HUGE - CE wasn't even worth the feat before now), and hurts 2%...

Still a good change.

[grodon9999]

Regarding CE - if this means I can pop a heal-scroll without loosing the AC I'm all for it.

Now - the question is do i buff for AC or not . . .

10 Base
1 Dodge
4 Icy Raiments Dodge
1 Alchemical Dodge
6 Wisdom
10 Dexterity
3 Chattering ring
4 Insight (Shroud Crafted)
5 Protection
5 Barkskin
8 Armor Bracers
4 Tempest III
5 Combat Expertise
1 Haste
4 Bard song
5 Palidin Aura
2 Recitation
2 PSA (Potion Supreme Ability)
2 Yugo pots for WIS and DEX
1 Def Sebyrius

83 - this is my theoretical max and I've only ever seen it once. I usually shelve my AC gear for guards in epic, now I'll need to see if this works or not . . .

[Cyr]

Epic Trash will also have a variable penalty to attack rolls that nearly doubles the "potentially viable AC" band. Sort of like rolling a d20 to hit, and then subtracting another d20 from their attack roll.

Interesting that this was a suggestion I saw by another player in an AC thread. A good suggestion btw. Epic mob to hits ARE way too high.

I do see a real issue still though.

*You did not go far enough. Epic trash is specified, why are red/purple names excluded? Their to hits are preposterously high now and could use this also.

*Why not add a small amount to mob to hits on normal content and add this variable penalty to all content? This would make it slightly more likely to be hit by just barely miss on a 19 toons and make the lower range of AC much more viable throughout the level range.

[Cyr]

Yes to Combat Expertise.

Combat Expertise no longer breaks on spellcast. Instead, spell point costs are doubled while in the stance. (To maintain the "don't cast while this is on" flavor.)

Interesting explanation. However, you will quickly find out if you do a survey of high level players that CE is a wasted feat in 95% of caster builds even if the spell point cost was the same and it did not break stance.

This change certainly helps out with clickies and UMD use on many builds as well as being a huge boon to pure monk toons. It may prove to be EVEN more annoying then the previous implementation on builds with limited spellcasting buffs though where now you have to hit CE to turn it off, buff, and THEN hit CE again to turn it on again.

[Jay203]

Yes to Combat Expertise.

Combat Expertise no longer breaks on spellcast. Instead, spell point costs are doubled while in the stance. (To maintain the "don't cast while this is on" flavor.)

We didn't change Defensive Fighting since newbies might turn it on and not realize that they're burning spell points like water.

wouldn't it be easier to just change how the game treat finishers and potions?
if "casting" is what breaks CE, then just change it so that the game doesn't treat Finishers as casting. make it so it's treated like abilities the way it should have been

[Hydro]

Ok so now epic mobs who already had lower saves then Amrath trash get a -10 to their saves...

This sounds extremely backwards, you should be buffing the abilities and not reducing the mobs saves. My caster can already get a hold monster to land 80-90% of the time in Von epics, so basically now I can hold anything unless they roll a 20. It couldn't be that hard to make combat dc's give your full level bonus instead of half, which would allow melée to use all their abilities without making any epic a joke with a fresh level 20 caster casting holds.

Epics are supposed to be for the best of the best, the players that work the hardest to get the best gear and have the best builds. Please don't make them any easier then they already are.

I guess if they are trying to make epics the new level 20 dungeons then we can just expect them to keep getting easier. Please keep epics seperate from normal level 20 quests, epic should be hard, mobs should have good saves, and casters should not be able to trivialize the quests without trying.

[TPICKRELL]

wouldn't it be easier to just change how the game treat finishers and potions?
if "casting" is what breaks CE, then just change it so that the game doesn't treat Finishers as casting. make it so it's treated like abilities the way it should have been

It might make sense, but NOOOOOOOO, too many monks are build around potency/devotion items increasing their effects.

[Visty]

wouldn't it be easier to just change how the game treat finishers and potions?
if "casting" is what breaks CE, then just change it so that the game doesn't treat Finishers as casting. make it so it's treated like abilities the way it should have been

not sure if it would be easier but at least they could fix the "barb rage and potion problem" too in the same move

[Alexandryte]

Interesting that this was a suggestion I saw by another player in an AC thread. A good suggestion btw. Epic mob to hits ARE way too high.

I do see a real issue still though.

*You did not go far enough. Epic trash is specified, why are red/purple names excluded? Their to hits are preposterously high now and could use this also.

*Why not add a small amount to mob to hits on normal content and add this variable penalty to all content? This would make it slightly more likely to be hit by just barely miss on a 19 toons and make the lower range of AC much more viable throughout the level range.

I'm gonna take a guess and say they want to try the change out on trash first and see how things change before they make a sweeping change to all Epic mobs. It seems to be their pattern of fix small bits and let it settle to see how things are affected. Not a bad pattern, mind you, but one that uses time as a cost rather than knee jerk back and forth.


But overall the info we got today about saves, AC, and CE is very very nice.


So the next object on the list of questions....will/is/was U5 [be] the patch where the unarmed handwrap code was revisited to see if GS wraps are possible or will an alternate means be available down the pipeline?

[maddmatt70]

Ok so now epic mobs who already had lower saves then Amrath trash get a -10 to their saves...

This sounds extremely backwards, you should be buffing the abilities and not reducing the mobs saves. My caster can already get a hold monster to land 80-90% of the time in Von epics, so basically now I can hold anything unless they roll a 20. It couldn't be that hard to make combat dc's give your full level bonus instead of half, which would allow melée to use all their abilities without making any epic a joke with a fresh level 20 caster casting holds.

Epics are supposed to be for the best of the best, the players that work the hardest to get the best gear and have the best builds. Please don't make them any easier then they already are.

I guess if they are trying to make epics the new level 20 dungeons then we can just expect them to keep getting easier. Please keep epics seperate from normal level 20 quests, epic should be hard, mobs should have good saves, and casters should not be able to trivialize the quests without trying.

I also find the -10 to mobs dc will make epics very trivial. All spells will work all the time. That is not fun for a wizard, sorceror, bard, cleric, or fvs that casts spells and in fact that makes it a whole lot less fun for all classes. I like making ac matter, combat dcs other then stunning going through some improvement, but making epic a joke really weakens its repeatability. What is there to do at end game? Two straight mods with low level content that can be run on epic, but the new epic is about as stimulating as blah. No new raids in a long time. I thought with all of this increase in revenue we would get something more tangible - guess not.

[Alexandryte]

Ok so now epic mobs who already had lower saves then Amrath trash get a -10 to their saves...

This sounds extremely backwards, you should be buffing the abilities and not reducing the mobs saves. My caster can already get a hold monster to land 80-90% of the time in Von epics, so basically now I can hold anything unless they roll a 20. It couldn't be that hard to make combat dc's give your full level bonus instead of half, which would allow melée to use all their abilities without making any epic a joke with a fresh level 20 caster casting holds.

Epics are supposed to be for the best of the best, the players that work the hardest to get the best gear and have the best builds. Please don't make them any easier then they already are.

I guess if they are trying to make epics the new level 20 dungeons then we can just expect them to keep getting easier. Please keep epics seperate from normal level 20 quests, epic should be hard, mobs should have good saves, and casters should not be able to trivialize the quests without trying.

The decrease to saves wasnt necessarily meant to buff casters (since they were making most DCs prior to) but rather a minor side-effect. The main effect was it made it so all tactical feats still have use/are desired at level 20 still.

Epic mobs still remain immune to all quick forms of dispatchment (death based effects, resistant to stat dmg, quick regen of neg lvls, etc) and have quite a significant boost to health. Party resources still are limited so it does take some more forethought than elite of similar quests. They (Turbine) are just trying to find the right balance for the new level of content so that it does not axe builds/feats that work well in previous parts of the game.

[Cetus]

I also find the -10 to mobs dc will make epics very trivial. All spells will work all the time. That is not fun for a wizard, sorceror, bard, cleric, or fvs that casts spells and in fact that makes it a whole lot less fun for all classes. I like making ac matter, combat dcs other then stunning going through some improvement, but making epic a joke really weakens its repeatability. What is there to do at end game? Two straight mods with low level content that can be run on epic, but the new epic is about as stimulating as blah. No new raids in a long time. I thought with all of this increase in revenue we would get something more tangible - guess not.

I agree completely, the -10 to all saves will dumb down epic to a trivial level.

Monk stunning abilities and viabilities of ac toons in there is ALL that I would touch.

The descirption upon entering epic says itself that it is "for the best of the best" why are you making it easier now?

Part of the usefulness of crafting various DC epic items for mana users was to be able to have your CC effective, not just give everyone working CC spells right off the bat.

Next thing I know, EDQ will have no spell resistance either to counteract a caster trying to fatique her. Figures...

Instead of dumbing down this game, and making our hard earned gear to give us the edge less useful, try working on bugs such as the actionboosts getting depleted everytime you get disjuncted in epic dq1, or fix the hp portion of the barb past life feat...

A car with a transmission about to blow out needs to get FIXED before you give it custom rims and a supercharger.

[Hydro]

I also find the -10 to mobs dc will make epics very trivial. All spells will work all the time. That is not fun for a wizard, sorceror, bard, cleric, or fvs that casts spells and in fact that makes it a whole lot less fun for all classes. I like making ac matter, combat dcs other then stunning going through some improvement, but making epic a joke really weakens its repeatability. What is there to do at end game? Two straight mods with low level content that can be run on epic, but the new epic is about as stimulating as blah. No new raids in a long time. I thought with all of this increase in revenue we would get something more tangible - guess not.

I'm all for giving melée more options and even allowing ac to do something in epics, but yeah trivializing mobs saves is not a good option.

[Cyr]

It seems to be their pattern of fix small bits and let it settle to see how things are affected. Not a bad pattern, mind you, but one that uses time as a cost rather than knee jerk back and forth.

Clearly you have not been here long enough if this is what you think their pattern is.

Turbine is notorious for making larger changes to fix smaller issues and over shooting on 'balance' issues. Rangers considered gimp became the class to play due to a bunch of buffs coming in at once. Barbarians became the uber class next thanks again to developer fat fingering on the balance scale. Don't even get me started on the massive changes to caster and sorc power levels that came in around GH. Move forward to more modern times and you will get stuff like grazing hits (to help new players hit????) and dungeon scaling (to help people who like to solo, but is largely pointed at as a grouping disincentive).

The AC change Eladrin is using has been talked about in depth on the forums for a very long time as a way to increase the range of viable AC's. This is about as talked about as a subject can get on these forums. That is why there is not a big shock factor about it. The saves change on the other hand, oh yeah that is very drastic particularly since it was not a huge complaint or the focus of many suggestions.