Epic stunner possible?

[gott_ist_tot]

No reply on the combat forum, but on a closer inspection it is, in fact, a character build question.

Now that weighted is going to work with Stunning Fist in update 5, is it possible to make a stunner build for epics? I mean a build, which would allow to reliably land both Stunning Fist and Stunning Blow.

The intuition tells me not, as monk focuses either in str or wis, never both... But maybe I'm missing something? Will mediocre (dunno, 14 + item 6?) wisdom be enough with +10 from weighted to connect even occasionally on epics?

The wis can't be too high as this will probably be split fighter build to get ftr tactics for stunning blow anyway.

Sorry for cross-posting, I'll try to refrain from doing this in the future.

[Impaqt]

No reply on the combat forum, but on a closer inspection it is, in fact, a character build question.

Now that weighted is going to work with Stunning Fist in update 5, is it possible to make a stunner build for epics? I mean a build, which would allow to reliably land both Stunning Fist and Stunning Blow.

The intuition tells me not, as monk focuses either in str or wis, never both... But maybe I'm missing something? Will mediocre (dunno, 14 + item 6?) wisdom be enough with +10 from weighted to connect even occasionally on epics?

The wis can't be too high as this will probably be split fighter build to get ftr tactics for stunning blow anyway.

Sorry for cross-posting, I'll try to refrain from doing this in the future.

I'm currently working ona build with this in mind. My only problem personally is that I really dont enjoy playing Monks.....

THe SF DC is 10+(1/2Monk Level) + Wis Modifier.

20 Wisdon is pretty easy to do so a Pure Monks would be looking at
10+10+5+10 for a 35 DC. Hardly enough to land reliably. but could land a few here and there on some trash mobs.....

If your working with a 30ish STR, we can get right around the same DC on the Stunning blows...

10+10+10 +Temp STR Buffs like Rage, Titans grip, etc...

Still not solid enough...

Its kinda silly that the Proc effect on the weighted wraps is exponentially more benefitial than selectable feats.....

a High Dex build with Weighted wraps still seems like the best choice.

[Chai]

My fighter has a stunning blow in the high 40s low 50s depending on buffs and bursts, and he can land stuns on epic trash mobs pretty well, but not all the time.

For a monk to get stunning fist to the same level without weighted adding to the stun DC would mean having godly wisdom

[Eladrin]

One of the things we're changing in Update 5 is we're reducing the saves of epic trash across the board by 10. We want you to be able to reliably use your DC based tools like special attacks and spells to deal with them, if you're targeting their weak saves.

Its kinda silly that the Proc effect on the weighted wraps is exponentially more benefitial than selectable feats...

It is pretty silly. Weighted weapons used to be just DC boosts (like Vertigo and Shatter); it's unfortunate that the secondary addition to them so overshadows the primary one.

[Cashiry]

Its kinda silly that the Proc effect on the weighted wraps is exponentially more benefitial than selectable feats.....

ya, but who knows, there probably is more to the change than they are letting on... there always is a side effect to any change they make...

[Impaqt]

One of the things we're changing in Update 5 is we're reducing the saves of epic trash across the board by 10. We want you to be able to reliably use your DC based tools like special attacks and spells to deal with them, if you're targeting their weak saves.


It is pretty silly. Weighted weapons used to be just DC boosts (like Vertigo and Shatter); it's unfortunate that the secondary addition to them so overshadows the primary one.

That will help Tremendously.... How bout losing that mysterious +5 across the board in Amrath while yer at it? Asking too much?

ya, but who knows, there probably is more to the change than they are letting on... there always is a side effect to any change they make...

I'm taking him at his word on this... Currently in Epics, players simply avoid trash mobs instead of killing them for potential scrolls in many situations.... Reducing the saves makes a lot of sense.

[Cashiry]

It is pretty silly. Weighted weapons used to be just DC boosts (like Vertigo and Shatter); it's unfortunate that the secondary addition to them so overshadows the primary one.

figured you had to make a change to get them to work with Stunning fist and Stunning blow... Must be adding something to weighted weapons for this to work the way you want it to?

[Chai]

ya, but who knows, there probably is more to the change than they are letting on... there always is a side effect to any change they make...

I'll reserve judgement for that when i see it.

I think if they made weighted actually work on handwraps, the issue would resolve itself for monks in this department. The ONLY thing weighted does on wraps is proc a passive stun. Dwarf Warhammer Kensai seems pretty nice as the race, class and PRE all get additions to tactics if taken, while still being able to use weighted.

[Cashiry]

I'll reserve judgement for that when i see it.

I think if they made weighted actually work on handwraps, the issue would resolve itself for monks in this department. The ONLY thing weighted does on wraps is proc a passive stun. Dwarf Warhammer Kensai seems pretty nice as the race, class and PRE all get additions to tactics if taken, while still being able to use weighted.

True...

[Yaga_Nub]

....It is pretty silly. Weighted weapons used to be just DC boosts (like Vertigo and Shatter); it's unfortunate that the secondary addition to them so overshadows the primary one.

So change it. Double the DC boosts and take the random percentage chance to stun away from all items. OR add a percentage chance to trip or sunder with Vertigo and whatever that other useless suffix is.

[Impaqt]

So change it. Double the DC boosts and take the random percentage chance to stun away from all items. OR add a percentage chance to trip or sunder with Vertigo and whatever that other useless suffix is.

Something like

5% provides a 5% chance to stun but the DC benefit is increase to +15?

Reduce the automatic while increasing the feat based.....

[Cashiry]

Something like

5% provides a 5% chance to stun but the DC benefit is increase to +15?

Reduce the automatic while increasing the feat based.....

sounds interesting.. 5% chance to stun and mob has a chance at 15 Fort? save on weighted weapons?

Is that what your saying or for the Feats

[maddmatt70]

One of the things we're changing in Update 5 is we're reducing the saves of epic trash across the board by 10. We want you to be able to reliably use your DC based tools like special attacks and spells to deal with them, if you're targeting their weak saves.


It is pretty silly. Weighted weapons used to be just DC boosts (like Vertigo and Shatter); it's unfortunate that the secondary addition to them so overshadows the primary one.

NOOOOOOO. Do not dumb down epic. A part of the fun was it is somewhat challenging now its going to be about a bunch of wizards casting masshold over and over. Unless you make epic harder somewhere else this is not a good change. A wizard or cleric or bard had to work hard to get a good dc which I was fine with now its going to be a joke.

[Impaqt]

sounds interesting.. 5% chance to stun and mob has a chance at 15 Fort? save on weighted weapons?

Is that what your saying or for the Feats

Hmmm... Let me explain a little better....


5% chance to automatically stun stays the same, just raise the DC boost by +5. so the factor to DC is x3 the weighted percentage rather than x2.

(I was thinking 5% weighted was a 10% chance at first.. I confused myself a little)

[sirgog]

One of the things we're changing in Update 5 is we're reducing the saves of epic trash across the board by 10. We want you to be able to reliably use your DC based tools like special attacks and spells to deal with them, if you're targeting their weak saves.

10 strikes me as a pretty drastic drop.

Mass Hold Monster, cast by a caster with solid but unspectacular equipment (36 casting stat for 32 save DC) currently seems to hit most trash about 50% of the time.

If this jumps to 95% - epics will be dominated by arcanes, as Mass Hold suddenly starts lasting ten times as long as it does now.


Another factor after such a change will be that groups that sail through the trash fights in Epics may be woefully underprepared for what the bosses can do to them...

Have you considered instead splitting the monsters into further categories - easy trash (e.g. Wiz-King Hyenas, the Drow in Offering of Blood) and hitting them with a save penalty, whilst keeping hard trash (scorrow in OOB, WF Sentinels in VON4) as they are now?

[Cashiry]

Hmmm... Let me explain a little better....


5% chance to automatically stun stays the same, just raise the DC boost by +5. so the factor to DC is x3 the weighted percentage rather than x2.

(I was thinking 5% weighted was a 10% chance at first.. I confused myself a little)

gotcha, thx for clarifying

[The_Phenx]

NOOOOOOO. Do not dumb down epic. A part of the fun was it is somewhat challenging now its going to be about a bunch of wizards casting masshold over and over. Unless you make epic harder somewhere else this is not a good change. A wizard or cleric or bard had to work hard to get a good dc which I was fine with now its going to be a joke.

Agreed to an extent. It would be nice if my max str fighter kensai could trip someone with a vertigo kopesh.

And as it stands its already dumbed down.. its just a buncha wizards casrting ottos over and over... at least this will open up some more techniques.

[Impaqt]

gotcha, thx for clarifying

But now that you mention it, adding a save to the "Autostun" might now be a bad idea as long as it was a more than reasonable chance to hit....

Something like 20+ the DC modifier so 5% wraps would wind up at a 35DC(1% would be 23DC)

I dunno.. Probobly complicating it more than it needs to be.. adding even more calculations to the already taxed system.

[maddmatt70]

Agreed to an extent. It would be nice if my max str fighter kensai could trip someone with a vertigo kopesh.

And as it stands its already dumbed down.. its just a buncha wizards casrting ottos over and over... at least this will open up some more techniques.

Its going to be lousy easy which ruins the fun. The way things are setup with epic is for massive repetition, but if its too easy its totally lacking in fun to repeat over and over.

[Cashiry]

But now that you mention it, adding a save to the "Autostun" might now be a bad idea as long as it was a more than reasonable chance to hit....

Something like 20+ the DC modifier so 5% wraps would wind up at a 35DC(1% would be 23DC)

I dunno.. Probobly complicating it more than it needs to be.. adding even more calculations to the already taxed system.

ya, maybe i'm also tyring to read into Eladrin's post... it sounds like he's adding something to weighted weapons... the secondary effect overshadows part....