Wiz/rogue

[Qindark]

Ok, I'll start this out like this: I've never played a wizard, and just started playing a few months ago. Please, no snide remarks, just good and bad of this build. I'm looking to maximize fire spells, but isn't everyone?

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Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 206
Spell Points: 1462 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 17
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    16
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         13                    13
Intelligence         18                    26
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             10                    10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               4                     5
Bluff                 0                     0
Concentration         1                    26
Diplomacy             0                     0
Disable Device        8                    12
Haggle                4                     4
Heal                  1                     2
Hide                  0                     0
Intimidate            0                     0
Jump                  3                     3
Listen                3                     8
Move Silently         4                     4
Open Lock             4                    12
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                4                     7
Search                8                    22
Spot                  3                    16
Swim                  7                     7
Tumble                4                     4
Use Magic Device      4                    23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Improved Spell Resistance I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Heightening I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
Enhancement: Improved Spell Resistance II
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Energy I


Level 7 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 8 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Lightning Reflexes
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III


Level 10 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation III
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II


Level 11 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Energy II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements II


Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Enlarge Spell
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation IV


Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements III


Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy III
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements III


Level 16 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I


Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II


Level 19 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 20 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery II

changed to reflect +1 int at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.
BTW, the only tomes will be what I find or can afford in the AH (guild rule), hence no planned tome increases.

[shadow_419]

From the looks of things, you're putting all but 1 lvl up ability raise into con and you only start with a 18 int. This will turn into a bit of a mistake imo. The dc's for your spells will suffer for it and you really will regret it. A wizards ability raises should always go into int, it's your primary stat don't forget that.

[ddoer]

looks fine to me in general.

• alignment
  in the past, i use to think true neutral is the best. but for wiz, I would go for Lawful neutral to open up the option of lesser reincarnating two levels to monk (wiz18/mnk2) even if you plan to be a pure wiz. There is no harmful effect to be lawful instead of neutral for caster.
  
  'good' is not a good idea, however. You will suffer from neg level when using LOTD.
  
  
• stats
  you didn't utilize the strength of drow to get Int 20. if you don't like WF, you may consider to use human that has an extra feat.
  
  your current stats is 'ok' to me. the str is a bit high but a high str won't do any harm and you could utilize it if you will do melee. notice that it is not hard to get +2 str tome, caster have rage, so your effective minimum strength is 8+2 tome+2 rage=12. to me, it's easy to fit in str +6 gear so without putting any point in str, I could get a 18 str.
  
  
• feats
  imho, enlarge is useless. for wiz with insightful reflex, lightning reflex is overkill. Your reflex save should be high enough. if you will use non-nuking spells, I suggest you to replace them with spell penetration and greater spell penetration.
  
  i won't take the feats in your sequence. you may take a look at my previous post as reference:
  http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...54#post2927354
  I did the feat planning for multiple TR casters and have to plan the sequence carefully. For non-TR, it's not a very big deal.
  
  i don't understand why people like to use empower first and get maximize later. maximize is way more efficient than empower.

i didn't read the enhancement. it's too hard to read.

[Qindark]

Thanks ddoer and shadow.

it appears I only get 11 feats instead of the 12 a straight wizard would get, but here goes my new feat list, as best I could tell from ddoer's post:
1:insightful reflexes
2:extend
3:Spell focus:evocation
6:Maximize
6:mental toughness
9:Greater spell focus:evocation
12:Improved mental toughness
12:Spell penetration
15:greater spell penetration
17:empower
18:heighten

Should I take out greater spell focus and replace with toughness? I'll also drop my str and add to my int:
10 10 14 20 8 10

[Irinis]

• alignment
  in the past, i use to think true neutral is the best. but for wiz, I would go for Lawful neutral to open up the option of lesser reincarnating two levels to monk (wiz18/mnk2) even if you plan to be a pure wiz. There is no harmful effect to be lawful instead of neutral for caster.
  
  'good' is not a good idea, however. You will suffer from neg level when using LOTD.

Um, the OP is planning a wiz/rog, not a pure wiz... why would they switch to monk splash from rogue splash? (Honestly interested in your views on this, I have one of each but haven't played the monk splash one very high yet.)

• stats
  you didn't utilize the strength of drow to get Int 20. if you don't like WF, you may consider to use human that has an extra feat.

High INT will also help your search and disable. Open Locks will suffer if you dumpstat DEX. Be aware that several unlockable things can't be Knocked at level, such as the doors in Tear of Dhakaan, the Mindflayer chest in Gianthold, and etc.

STR is a little high. 14 max +2 tome +6 item +2 rage = 24... you could even go 12 to start very easily. Make sure to treat bards right and you will be able to melee in between spellcasting.

• feats
  imho, enlarge is useless. for wiz with insightful reflex, lightning reflex is overkill.

If you're planning on disabling traps on higher difficulties than normal, insightful reflexes isn't enough even with the high INT of a wiz. (I speak from experience!) I will be making a +dexskills shroud item and hope that I don't ALSO have to take lightning reflexes.

I took Nimble Fingers and people laughed at me for it, however I can search and disable epic traps without a shroud +intskills item. Once I get one made I will be able to swap the feat out for something else. My Open Locks skill is terrible and I would change that if I did this character over.

Spell Penetration feats are a MUST on a splashed caster. They're already necessary on a pure caster.

Personally I wouldn't build a wiz/rog as a drow despite the INT bonus, because when you're disabling traps you need every shred of HP you can muster. Mine was a halfling with 16 starting CON and she's still a little squishier than I'd like, mostly because she's a fleshie. Human would do very well, extra skills + extra feat compared to any other race, extra CON compared to a drow.

It's VITAL to take a +2 INT tome at lvl7 exactly on a wiz/rog. Even with all that INT spending 2 points per level on several different skills doesn't leave you with much.

[Irinis]

Thanks ddoer and shadow.

it appears I only get 11 feats instead of the 12 a straight wizard would get, but here goes my new feat list, as best I could tell from ddoer's post:
1:insightful reflexes
2:extend
3:Spell focus:evocation
6:Maximize
6:mental toughness
9:Greater spell focus:evocation
12:Improved mental toughness
12:Spell penetration
15:greater spell penetration
17:empower
18:heighten

Should I take out greater spell focus and replace with toughness? I'll also drop my str and add to my int:
10 10 14 20 8 10

1:insightful reflexes
2:extend
3:Spell focus:evocation
6:Maximize
6:Greater spell focus:evocation
9:empower (maximized + empowered for boss fights)
12:heighten
12:Spell penetration
15:greater spell penetration
17:Spell focus: necromancy (for FOD and Wail in Shroud)
18:toughness (you will NEEEEED more HP on a drow!)

With this racial choice you will want +2 tomes of INT, CON, and STR. INT must be eaten at l7 for most benefit. CON for survivability, which will still not be enough on certain traps.

Ending INT: 20 +5 levels +2 tome +1 litany +3 exceptional +6 item = 37

Unless they come out with epic +7 int item or are not planning on grinding Abbott for Litany, you would be safe with 19 INT to start, giving you a few more points for STR to melee in early levels when oom. (Or if you pick up a +3 tome and they come out with +7 int on epic and you get Litany.) If you did 19, get a +1 INT tome at lvl3 for skills and also eat +2 tome later anyway.

[Qindark]

Thanks Irinis.

Of course Human gives me another feat to play with at level 1:
1:insightful reflexes
1: Lightning reflexes
2:extend
3:Spell focus:evocation
6:Maximize
6:mental toughness
9:Greater spell focus:evocation
12:Improved mental toughness
12:Spell penetration
15:greater spell penetration
17:empower
18:heighten

still: Should I take out greater spell focus and replace with toughness?
starting stats: 8 10 16 18 8 8

[Phidius]

Um, the OP is planning a wiz/rog, not a pure wiz... why would they switch to monk splash from rogue splash? (Honestly interested in your views on this, I have one of each but haven't played the monk splash one very high yet.)

If you decide you don't really need to handle locks/traps, going 2 monk will give you evasion as well, with higher saves (+3/+3/+3 instead of just reflex) and 2 free feats, not to mention stances for boosts in Str when needed.

High INT will also help your search and disable. Open Locks will suffer if you dumpstat DEX. Be aware that several unlockable things can't be Knocked at level, such as the doors in Tear of Dhakaan, the Mindflayer chest in Gianthold, and etc.

It takes some decent equipment, but 4 ranks in Open Lock and a starting Dex of 8 will allow you to get those locks. I don't recall having any problem with the one in Tear, as it's been a while, but the chest in GH explorer was a favorite of mine when farming for relics.

If you're planning on disabling traps on higher difficulties than normal, insightful reflexes isn't enough even with the high INT of a wiz. (I speak from experience!) I will be making a +dexskills shroud item and hope that I don't ALSO have to take lightning reflexes.

You don't need insightful reflexes to disable traps, just to survive to get to them. Most traps in the game don't require you to disable traps while standing in them, and can just be timed to avoid having to make a save.

The only time I'm worried about surviving to get to the trap box is in Cabal elite.

Op - I agree with ddoer on the choice of race. The benefit of going Drow is starting at 20 Int... if you're not going to start at 20, you'd be better off going with Human.

I'd go with WF myself, especially if you're hoping/planning to do some melee.

[Irinis]

You don't need insightful reflexes to disable traps, just to survive to get to them. Most traps in the game don't require you to disable traps while standing in them, and can just be timed to avoid having to make a save.

Most, yeah... the ones in VON5 are particularly annoying, and if there is a safe place to stand in there to disable them (the lightning passage) I haven't found it yet. On Normal, save flashes above my head everywhere I stand, on Elite I'm dead. On Epic... I won't even go in there.

What feats would you advise on a monk splashed wiz during the monk levels? Extra toughness with a side of toughness? Or something else?

Thanks, appreciated.

OP: In my revised feats list you'll notice heighten a LOT earlier than 18. You'll want it at either 12 or 15. Maximize at 6 and empower at 9 will allow you to tear up boss fights with your firewall just by turning both on. You don't want to run the whole quest with both on, is all.

As a splash build, even with max INT, you will benefit from an extra DC on FOD and Wail even if you never take any AP of Pale Master.

You rarely need DC for evocation spells, more for necro, enchantment and conjuration. Firewall is extremely powerful without any evocation focus as it doesn't have a save, only immunities, so you need a "backup plan" spell school for when evocation is useless.

[Phidius]

Most, yeah... the ones in VON5 are particularly annoying, and if there is a safe place to stand in there to disable them (the lightning passage) I haven't found it yet. On Normal, save flashes above my head everywhere I stand, on Elite I'm dead. On Epic... I won't even go in there.

2 types of traps there - lightning, and blenders.

1. Lightning can't be disabled - keep Protect:Electric on, and time the lightning.

2. Blenders - I still remember my first time on elite trying to be the trapper for a PUG of people I didn't know. I ended up going back in later by myself, and found out that you disable the traps for the left side by getting the boxes on the right.

What feats would you advise on a monk splashed wiz during the monk levels? Extra toughness with a side of toughness? Or something else?
...

Use the monk levels for Toughness/Power Attack (I normally use standard feats for these), which means you can pickup your 20th Wiz metamagic before level 20 with an extra to boot.

[Irinis]

Yeah it's the blade traps. The only places to face the trapbox to disable on either side still have "save" on normal and "you are dead" on elite. I went in on normal and couldn't find any safe place to stand.

[oweieie]

Yeah it's the blade traps. The only places to face the trapbox to disable on either side still have "save" on normal and "you are dead" on elite. I went in on normal and couldn't find any safe place to stand.

The VoN5 elite traps all have safe spots to disable in, but expect to suck a good 250 damage getting to them.

[Cam_Neely]

I am really interested in the 18/2 wiz/rog, but want to go halfling (favor thing for me), unless its strong negative. Im thinking

Str 10
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 8
Cha 8

I think with the high Int, decent Con, it should not hurt me to much in mid to end game, but have never played a Wiz or a Rog. Input?

Thanks

[hethyba]

A halfling with 10 str might be doable, but you're going to get encumbered awfully easily. I don't know if I'd be able to stand having that little carrying capacity. Your mileage may vary.

[Cam_Neely]

Thanks, I've mainly played a Barb, so never really had to think about that, but the level of encumbrance is getting up there even on the intro island, something I'm going to have to think about. It seems that dropping Dex down would hurt his ability to handle traps. I know he is never going to be an epic level trapmonkey, but hope to use him very efficiently for most content in parties where there is not a trap guy

[hethyba]

Disable is based off of Int, not Dex, so it wouldn't hurt your trapmonkeying too much. Open lock is dex-based, but you can't get critical failures on locks, so not as much an issue.