Ok PvP is... bleh, how could it be better?

[Beld]

Once you offer rewards for doing it, then no matter what your original intentions where, it will be abused/exploited.

Allowing rewards for PvP (especially +4 tomes....REALLY??) would mean that every guild in the game would be running the PvP stuff to exploit it for the rewards, with very little risk. As I stated earlier, the mechanics for this kind of thing are ALREADY IN THE GAME, they just require YOU as a player to set things up and if you want rewards, to provide the rewards....this is how it should be.

[Memnir]

This game has PvP?

[Ethias]

NO REWARDS. Nothing, unless they insert chests equal to half the level of the level it's designed for or something, but I wouldn't want anything the level of +1 tomes even dropping; aka, maybe you can pick up some noob gear but unlikely anything major. Maybe offer collectables? :P

If I could improve PvP in this game, WITHOUT TAKING DEV TIME FROM PvE (read: this is impossible at the present time, so I would just leave PvP alone for now) I would:

-NOT MAKE ANY OF THE BELOW CHANGES TO PVE! These are ONLY against other players in PvP!!
-Change hold spells, stunning blow, to not give instant crits.
-Insert a shared DR on crowd control abilities and some debuffs.
-Reduce the damage done by Slayer Arrows on players.
-Modify Fortification for PvP a bit (making it still valuable, but not to completely negate crits and sneak attacks).
-Encourage group v group combat in some manner where the goal was something other than killing each other, but where killing one another was often a way to accomplish that goal.
-NOT MAKE ANY OF THE ABOVE CHANGES TO PVE! These are ONLY against other players in PvP!!

PvP could be much better in DDO, but it would take dev time away from PvE. Perhaps as DDO grows, there can be some time from developers to work on PvP, but I would really prefer they focus on improving end game, etc. Not every game needs every type of play; DDO does not need to cater to everything a player wants. I would rather play a serious PvP game for PvP anyway.

[Lasulie]

create 3 sides that player can join upon starting their PvP adventures. Create one big circular non-instanced zone with a castle in the middle and a river somewhere with forest covering most of the map.
Let the players conquer the castle by breaking 2 doors and going all the way to the throne room to kill a dude with tons of HP defended by 1 of the 3 sides.
AND when PvP becomes the big feature everyone loves rename this game dungeons of camelot, add relics and RR as PvP rewards.
Alternativly go play DAoC.

Pvp is disliked in DDO, I think, because it is attractive to a different type of player. ie immature or juvenile (not age, but mentality.) One of the nice things about DDO is the relatively friendly community.

WOW that's like me saying PvE attracs ******* and bad players. I can understand that if your first PvP experience was with WoW that you'd think something like this but it's a problem with the whole game not just PvP. DAoC, SWG, CoV and even Warhammer all had very mature players even in the PvP environment.

[tomfar72]

First, let me say I hate PVP. Not for the PVP in and of itself, but strictly for the fact that it ALWAYS leads to balancing PVE abilities so they are not overpowered in PVP which is enough to make me want to kick a puppy. The other big negative about PVP is that any dev time spent on PVP is not being spent on PVE, which is what the majority of the community cares about. (me included)

All that being said, I did have an idea for PVP in DDO that could be rather unique, fit within the D&D "theme," and not overly soak up dev time. Team PVP (6or12 man) set in dungeons we already have.(small-medium sized zones would work best) Team A starts at the quest entrance next to their chest, Team B starts at the end of the quest next to their chest. No mobs, no shrines, all doors are unlocked, all gates are open, and traps are active. The game ends when you loot your opponent's chest.

Basicaly it would be a dungeon type feel against another team. The maps already exist, which would cut down on Dev time.

[jomonkey527]

I agree with one of the posts that for the most part DDO is friendly. I think I may have posted this before. I think cross server PVP would be cool. Maybe mission based. This way the community feel remains, server pride is maintained, and you would collectively work together.

[Stormanne]

The only aspect of PvP that I, personally, would find acceptable is the Monster Play mechanic from LoTRo.

[Artagon]

I appreciate the fresh ideas coming now. I like the monster system idea, that could be a blast! Also the chest at each end idea is pretty cool, though I'd leave the traps in for tactical play and allow both teams to collect the end reward regardless.

Either option you guys gave there would be workable, and if the monster system is already in LoTRO it might not be TOO horribly complicated to port over, though I believe their gameplay system is more like WoW

[Nevthial]

It is completely constructive to suggest that it is not a good use of time to put dev time into PvP if we think its bad for the game. Dev time is a zero sum game. Time spent on A is time not spend on B.

I PvP alot. Waay too much, ask anyone who knows me. I do it because I'm tired of the same old content. If the dev's put any effort whatsoever into PvP, even 5 minutes of work, I would be really, really, miffed. PvP doesn't drive DDO. PvE and new quests/raids do. When new stuff comes out, the regular PvP'rs may not see me for two weeks. I then get bored and go back to it. It is a distraction, afterthought, and a way to meet and hang out with friends on the server I play on. ( Ghallanda) PvP in DDO shouldn't be about e-peens or ego's , it should remain a diversion. There should be nothing gained from it but a good time. When the dev's fixed the arena system way back, I was upset they put resources into it actually. If you want more PvP , maybe try LOTRO. It's a nice Turbine game too from what I hear from friends who PvP there. ( I wouldn't know personally, I only DDO)

Lorien nailed it on the head.

[Uska]

By going to another game designed with pvp in mind that will never be ddo without changing the basic game and for something that not that many people do or care about is a huge waste of time

[Falco_Easts]

I don't PVP but....

How about a quest along the lines of a castle seige. Raid group forms then is divided into two teams. One teams job is to attack the castle, storm the walls and take control. The other team needs to defend the walls, sally out to take out the seige engines and kill the enemy commander.
The two teams at no time will come into contact with each other, mobs will form the part of the enemy however it is a race. Whichever team obtains their objective first comletes the the quest and receives an end reward. The other team fails and receives no end reward.
By making mobs take the place of the enemy there is no need for PVP balance however you are still playing against another team of players to complete the quest and prove your team the better. It could also operate as a stand alone quest for a normal party where you can choose to attack or defend the castle.

How does that sound?

[Nevthial]

I don't PVP but....

How about a quest along the lines of a castle seige. Raid group forms then is divided into two teams. One teams job is to attack the castle, storm the walls and take control. The other team needs to defend the walls, sally out to take out the seige engines and kill the enemy commander.
The two teams at no time will come into contact with each other, mobs will form the part of the enemy however it is a race. Whichever team obtains their objective first comletes the the quest and receives an end reward. The other team fails and receives no end reward.
By making mobs take the place of the enemy there is no need for PVP balance however you are still playing against another team of players to complete the quest and prove your team the better. It could also operate as a stand alone quest for a normal party where you can choose to attack or defend the castle.

How does that sound?

Zerg fest Whooot!!!

[Artagon]

I guess my point was that PvP doesn't have to be pointless for the Devs to put into the game because if it's done right, it can enhance the end-game content so that it is not so stale all the time. You complain that you are doing the same thing over and over again so the dev's should make more missions, but really, you and I are looking for the same thing. Something to stave away boredom at cap.

I like the Monster Play mechanic idea better than my own to be honest. In this way, existing dungeons could be populated with INTELLIGENT monsters to play against. I'm not really sure what the reward system is in LoTRO for playing as a monster, but this seems like a balanced way to do it.. maybe they could do small turbine point awards for playing as a monster based upon achieving specific goals? By introducing this concept, it is no longer about the e-Peen, because the opposition is not using their regular characters, but rather generated characters for the mission at hand, additionally, they are doing it incognito, so they don't have to feel like they are going to be trashed upon for playing their characters well.

[Stormwine]

Ive said it before Ill say it again. PvP in a game like this is secondary and to spend any time or money on it is ludicrous. I personally love PvP'ing in other games, First person Shooters, Online Pokere (kinda pvp lol) and EvE online. Games that are made for PvP and center around it. PvE is what makes this game great. Part of that is that classes aren't balanced and have their specialties. Plus it's a great break from the trash talking that accompanies pvp.
(And yes I know that there is an amount of trash talking in PvE but its different). Im not say take PvP out of DDO but Dev time is far more useful in things like races, classes, new dungeons, etc. Lets leave the PvP as it is when I need PvP I have plenty of FPS on my machine.

[Vynnt]

I vote 'no'.

1. Killing a player is much different than killing a mob. Players have tiny amounts of hp compared to a mob, thus making spike damage king. In other games where PvP is prevalent, the classes are balanced. Warhammer: Age of Reckoning even lays it out for you. Melee DPS < Ranged DPS < Healers < Tanks < Melee DPS (or something like that, its been awhile). In DDO, it's not like that. It's more like Consistent DPS < Self Healers < Spike DPS < Self Healing Spike DPS. This causes problems in balancing.

2. Because of #1, you will have entire groups/raids full of WF sorcs owning everyone. Frustrating PvPers and causing them to roll WF sorcs of their own and the cycle will continue. AAs and dark monks to a lesser extent, but also overpowered in PvP.

3. PvP actively affecting PvE. Things like Otto's Irresistible and other CC are key components of PvE. To make them work for PvP, you would have to severely gimp them. Same goes for toning spike damage. Same goes for heavy fort and SA.

4. PvP passively affecting PvE. Right now, 90% of builds are angled toward PvE. The remaining ones are still useful for PvE. If PvP was to be a focus of DDO, you would have more people running builds that are possibly usuless in groups, but be good at PvP. An example, Dark path monk 6 str, weapon finesse, and like 8 toughnesses (no twfs, no point, all you are doing is hitting once).

5. I am strongly opposed to rewards for PvP. Exp points for pvp leads to an easy way for PvP builds to level, while screwing the majority of the people who play. I remember back when I used to play WAR, all I would do from log in to log out is sit in the queue and level up from pvp. Same goes for unique loot.


Having a whole different system of balances and adjustments to make it work would cause a whole lot of headaches and whiners. It's just not worth it.

[Nevthial]

I like the Monster Play mechanic idea better than my own to be honest. In this way, existing dungeons could be populated with INTELLIGENT monsters to play against. I'm not really sure what the reward system is in LoTRO for playing as a monster, but this seems like a balanced way to do it.. maybe they could do small turbine point awards for playing as a monster based upon achieving specific goals? By introducing this concept, it is no longer about the e-Peen, because the opposition is not using their regular characters, but rather generated characters for the mission at hand, additionally, they are doing it incognito, so they don't have to feel like they are going to be trashed upon for playing their characters well.

It would be really, really cool. But honestly, the quests would be tougher for players to finish than running anything on Epic even. If a PvP'r was running a kobold shaman in say a quest chain like WW...Doooom to the poor souls trying to complete it!!
Alot of my regular PvP pals went to LOTRO to play the "freeps" I believe is what they call the monster classes. They seem to have a blast there, but I'm too hardcore a DDO'er to change games and join 'em. One thing that made me laugh and go oh man! how cool is that! at the same time is when they mentioned outdoor areas in LOTRO for PvP consisting of hordes of folks, most mounted. Like War Goats or some such even.Haflings on War Goats!!! LOL They said you can even play a type of Worg that's stealthy!!!

[Calebro]

I'd be all for the Player Monster concept in a similar fashion to LOTRO. I loved it there.
But there would need to be some stipulations involved, such as a dedicated area (like LOTRO) or an option upon entering the dungeon.

I can just imagine the PD'ers entering a quest that they know like the back of their hand and running into a player controlled Trog Shaman.
Some of them would love it.
Others would be throwing things that their monitors when you killed their PD toon.

[Majere_Aumar]

1st to the guys who say pvp is just for the immature. Thats a quite immature comment in itself. PVP gives people the chance to fight a fast moving, thinking enemy. Placing a firewall on the ground while NPC mobs stupidly walk in circles inside it does not test one's intellect or gaming ability.

Cheap, Simple PVP Balancing with 0 effect on PVE:
PVP balance can be acheived fairly and in little time by making pvp items available for each class which only work in the arenas. That way there's no reason to tamper with the classes themselves and no benefit from the gear except inside pvp.
Some of these items could also be earned through pvp, like in WoW.

Making it more fun:
At the moment, 99% of all pvp is done inside the wayward lobster....so....upgrade the tavern with a bigger pit. Put plenty of areas where non-casters can go to avoid LOS of casters who are at long range. Arrange it so melee dont just sit under the platform and smash casters as soon as they pop down....etc. Put a little though into game balance with the map layout.
At the moment, a melee is never going to accept a challenge against a caster in the Stash arena because he knows there is no chance of winning.
Make a random tough mob spawn and when people kill it, they have to fight for the treasure (pvp only item).

Fix some abilities so they work:
Invisibility and hiding should work in pvp areas.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I didnt read your post or the replies!

Who really cares about PVP?

[heyytoi]

PvP is awesome.