Shaverath.. AKA.. Oh ****, oh **** my firewall isn't working!!!

[Cerwan]

Well, as the title suggests I find myself just a tad useless in certain areas of the game.. Shaverath being one of the more serious ones, as I really like that end-game area..
(I could Otto's Irresist most things, but that's a one-target-spell and trying to actually kill those pesky demons afterwards is a different story..)

Still, it's not the only place, as some of the quests in the Orchard (Temple of Vol comes to mind) have some fire (and cold) immune peeps in them.. And I was (and am) specialized in fire and cold.. First time doing a Sorc, bear with me..

Well, I tried going for Discoball, but while it works some of the time (I am a WF, thus a serious hit on the DCs...(And I took Spell pen, Not Focus), most of the time is is pretty much just a wasted spell.. Even the Heightened Web isn't very effective and even if it is, I tend to zerg through my spell-points trying to kill whatever I caught in it..

So, as you can imagine, I'm feeling a bit lost here..

I am gonna TR my WF Sorc as soon as I hit 20 with him and then work my way back up.. But this time I want to end up feeling at least somewhat useful. So I'm trying to work out what I need to look for.. Ie.. Feats, spells and hopefully a few tactics..

What should I expect my role to be in the end-game content?
Which spells are the most useful for me? (Again, I can either do spell pen or Focus, but not both) and how do I twink out myself to maximize their potential?

Basically, what I'm asking for is a 101 on end-game content for a WF Sorc...

(As a bonus, I would like to be able to solo the Temple of Vol.. Shouldn't be impossible, but what am I looking for? Preferably without running out of SP halfway through the quest)

I may be asking a lot, but to be honest I got a rather nasty surprise when I found that most of my spells simply had no effect against demons and I really want to be prepared for them (and the Vol thingies) next time around.. So any and all help would be very appreciated..

Thanks in advance..

[cheever77]

Hey mate yeah end game can be tough as all mobs pretty much till you hit Vale require only firewall. Found the best spell/spells for Vol were firewall for the vamps and either ball lightning,force missiles and or I think Cone of Cold.
Not to mention disintergrate for the golems.

Vol can be soloed on a caster it just isn't the easiest. Found it easier on my cleric and FVS.

As for shavarath I have reduced my sorc to being a Haste/Displace caster with the occasional web/irr dance/dance ball. Or if I have to kill I use enervate/energydrain?? and FoD. I have a drow sorc max CHA and still find without the neg levels I have a hard time with insta kill in shavarath.

As for spell pen or focus I am not sure which way I would go, on one hand no point going focus if you cant get thru SR anyway.

I have taken toughness,ext,Max,Emp,Heighten, SP..... I think lol cant remember atm

[sirgog]

In Shavarath, there's three main ways you can go: Extreme nuking, buffbot, or crowd control. Both options other than buffbot have gear requirements higher than any other content except the toughest epics.

For extreme nuking, you really, really must have the Amrath clickies for your chosen elements, or an Eardweller, or at least Superior Freeze 6 (or equivalents) from the AH, plus the best lore item you can use for your element(s) and all enhancements in it. Buff yourself with Superior Freeze/Superior Spark/Xaochasian Spell Frenzy, Haste, Jump and Displacement, turn on Quicken, Empower and Maximize, and gather eight to ten foes at a time. Unleash hell. Most things can't survive a crit spell unless they make their saves.

Buffbots just cast Displacement, Haste and Rage on the party, then try to be a mediocre nuker or CCer. This requires no particular gear. Waves of Exhaustion helps here, both on bosses and also on trash.

CC'ers want to use Otto's Irresistable Dance, Heightened Web, Mass Hold Monster and, on large packs of foes with high saves, Waves of Exhaustion to soften them up.

[Varis]

In Shavarath, there's three main ways you can go: Extreme nuking, buffbot, or crowd control. Both options other than buffbot have gear requirements higher than any other content except the toughest epics.

For extreme nuking, you really, really must have the Amrath clickies for your chosen elements, or an Eardweller, or at least Superior Freeze 6 (or equivalents) from the AH, plus the best lore item you can use for your element(s) and all enhancements in it. Buff yourself with Superior Freeze/Superior Spark/Xaochasian Spell Frenzy, Haste, Jump and Displacement, turn on Quicken, Empower and Maximize, and gather eight to ten foes at a time. Unleash hell. Most things can't survive a crit spell unless they make their saves.

Buffbots just cast Displacement, Haste and Rage on the party, then try to be a mediocre nuker or CCer. This requires no particular gear. Waves of Exhaustion helps here, both on bosses and also on trash.

CC'ers want to use Otto's Irresistable Dance, Heightened Web, Mass Hold Monster and, on large packs of foes with high saves, Waves of Exhaustion to soften them up.

Great advice! I may want to add, that as a nuker, you will want the DC of your evocation spells as high as possible. Cone of cold will annihilate groups on amrath but only if they don't make the save vs half.
You can use polar ray and not worry about saves but then you only attack single targets. Killing them one by one will be a inefficient help to a group and makes soloing impossible unless you are willing to spend a fortune on mana pots.

[tinyelvis]

Two quick suggestions that go along with the good advice above.

The "nuke" approach (and I hate that reference) is not too difficult to achieve. Make sure you superior enhance your cone of cold, or chain lighting (ball lighting easier to use). This is a good start. Remember clickies give you a bigger bonus. Cold is probably your best bet as a good goal for items to collect. This way your polar ray will be uber.

1) Pick up Telvi's sash for a superior freeze clicky that give three 3 minute buffs between shrines. This can be gained at Bastion of Power.

2) Learn to use invisibility to bypass areas in these quests.

If you plan on solo'n this, here are a couple videos (thanks to MrCow) showing one way to do it with a WF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lvJJFnpTXo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ7-2QMhmKA

p.s. I also have evocation focus on my WF caster. And one last thing, if you are just after XP, reaver refuge quests are easier, can be run faster, and give better XP.

[ddoer]

for vol, use disintegrate.

xp sux in amarth. you probably want to flag tod on casual/normal and then move on to another zone.

i have never tried extreme nuking approach. nor i'll be a buffer. CC may work if you have a party with good enough dps.

for sins, the way i run is always wail of banshee. for solo, i will use displacement and stoneskin (use scroll if u r a WF), gather up a large batch of mobs, setup a kill zone with mind fog + disco ball (just to reduce your damage intake) to kill with wail of banshee. it will take a few wail to kill the majority of them, and then move on, setup another kill zone, and kill another wave. one of the keys is you should have torc + co op + bramble-casters. the orthons like to manyshoot and it will generate a lot of mana for you.

[Impaqt]

for vol, use disintegrate.

xp sux in amarth. you probably want to flag tod on casual/normal and then move on to another zone.

yeah, thats what we need. More people flagged for ToD that have No idea how to handle the mobs in the area.


Once you understand the zone and mobs, those quests are not that difficult and can be compleated in a reasonable amount of time for the XP Givin.

[Siskel]

For the nuke approach I would suggest investing some time in getting equipment to increase your damage reduction. Paired with a torc and con. opp. items you can nuke heavily then regen your mana. For some ideas on DR items read Tukaw's build for an arcane melee. Some of the items you are looking at getting a Docent of Defiant, Bramble Casters, hound shield or Light and Darkness. Other then that you can also wear more guard items to do damage while shield blocking for SP's.

[ArichValtrahn]

xp sux in amarth.

Huh?

I was flagging my Barb last night. We did Genesis, Sins and Bastion on Elite.. Genesis was 17k XP. That isnt what I would call sucky xp. Maybe it only sucks if you flag on casual?

[MarcusCole]

Huh?

I was flagging my Barb last night. We did Genesis, Sins and Bastion on Elite.. Genesis was 17k XP. That isnt what I would call sucky xp. Maybe it only sucks if you flag on casual?

I believe he is referring to the xp/min gained which, is much less than say the refuge where monastery zerg runs will give you much more xp/min.

[tinyelvis]

yeah, thats what we need. More people flagged for ToD that have No idea how to handle the mobs in the area.


Once you understand the zone and mobs, those quests are not that difficult and can be compleated in a reasonable amount of time for the XP Givin.

LOL, are you serious. Casters are really just along for ride in TOD. If he has level drain and finger, which it sounds like he does, then what is the problem? Plus, I would bet he also has recon meaning he can be a heal bot. Sure a good caster can kite, and be quite helpful but, nobody stalls a TOD run waiting for casters to join. They sure are not critical elements. Making a raid where casters are important party members would go against everything the designers currently stand for.

Besides, if you read the thread you would see that he is just interested in hitting 20 then TR'n again.

[Cerwan]

Well, I am TR'ing this time around.. What I'm really interested in is what I should aim my build for at the way back up.. Hence, what I have right now isn't really important.. It's what I have to get for hitting 20 the second time around..

When I think end-game, I'm not really looking for the experience, cause there are some pretty straight forward ways of getting that. I'm thinking of what I'm gonna do, once I hit level 20 again.. (Or in the last levels before that)

Specifically, how to build my WF Sorc (2.0 so to speak) to handle Shaverath..

I hear some about lightning, but is that a viable option, enhancement-wise, when also focusing on fire/ice and what should I sacrifice for it?

I would take toughness enhancements for the HP, full Fire/Ice and all stats..
I have taken all the empower and some of the heighten enhancements to lessen the cost, but is this viable in the endgame or should I aim for fewer but more powerful spells? (Lightning / Acid enhancments Vs. Metamagic ones)

I've just hit lvl 18 with him the first time around, so I haven't played heavily into the 9th level spells yet.. It seems WotB is the way to go, but do I want to maximize the build for it and can that even be done?

As for Vol, I didn't believe CoC had any effect on the undead, as they are immune and the Vol Shadows (immune to fire and cold it seems) are what I really don't know what to do about.. Again, Disintegrate is a one-target spell and they come in droves, so soloing could be very hard indeed..

I have already brought a monk to lvl 20 and run pretty much every area with him, so my experience with a lot of things stem from being a halfling, survivalist monk build and that naturally means I have to revise thinking quite a bit..

What I can hear so far is that I need to work on Web and Discoball, which seems to indicate some Heavy DCs, but again I can only really focus on a single school..

Abjuration (for Dismissal etc..)
Conjuration (Web)
Evocation (Wall of Fire, etc..)
Enchantment (pretty much every CC spell, except for Web)
Necromancy (for the instakills primarily and a few more..)

Going for enchantment would let me do CC pretty well (except Web) and that might be my role, save for the fact that I am WF and thus already miss out on +2DC as compared to Drow.. Going for DC wont let me do Spell pen though, but I'm not sure which one is the better option..

Speaking about that, if I look into the Shroud, I pretty much assume I'll take the role as CC / Buffer and since I'll be doing that whenever I get the chance, I might want to focus on that first.. Is a caster primarily for CC and buffs there? Again, while I've done it a lot of times, I've never done it with anything but a monk and frankly, I didn't really notice the casters there..

As for Epic, this is a whole different ballgame, but once again, I hope to be able to perform well in there, as well as in the raids.. I'm just trying to figure out what I need to focus on...

Thnak you all for the help so far..

[Spiffyspiffy]

LOL, are you serious. Casters are really just along for ride in TOD. If he has level drain and finger, which it sounds like he does, then what is the problem? Plus, I would bet he also has recon meaning he can be a heal bot. Sure a good caster can kite, and be quite helpful but, nobody stalls a TOD run waiting for casters to join. They sure are not critical elements.

I agree that raids are not stalled waiting for arcanes, but that doesn't mean they're not critical. It just means they're not additive, and two (or one!) can fulfill the need of the entire raid.

Divines would have the same problem, but at least on Cannith there isn't enough divines worth their weight in spit to fill the needed roles. More people like to play arcanes, so even with similar percentage of value-players the absolute number of them is high enough to reach critical mass and fill needed spots.

Imagine how rogues feel, where the current joke on Cannith is that they're only brought because they have less damage type numbers per hit, so thus create less lag.

Although I will say that ToD, part 3 in particular, is the reason I got reconstruct on my drow sorc. There's only so much thumb twiddling between FtS'ing orthons one can do. However, being able to tell people to suck it when they demand GH was worth it, all on its own.

Making a raid where casters are important party members would go against everything the designers currently stand for.

Having played UO, EQ, DaoC and WoW, and arcane style characters in every one, it's interesting to hear the same complaints cross every game. The reality is that in DDO, arcanes lives are better than in other games. Almost always, arcanes are useful - even if just one or two of them. However, in this statement you're demanding that they be necessary, and because in reality they are necessary just not in numbers, you're by implication demanding that a raid require many arcanes to be successful. Enough so that a raid has to "stall waiting for a caster to join"

You're right. That's not going to happen. It would be bad game design if it did.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Altho I am sure a lot of people will strongly disagree, I am putting PA on my arcanes from now on and keeping up masters touch. If ur solo'ing and now how to use a hireling the stuff in Amarath is not hard to melee.....and if ur a WF'ed it's even better...you can just self repair.

You don't have to sacrifice your casting aspects neither to do this...quite honestly, I think Amarath is just too melee oriented to try and get by with just SP. I personally don't have any fun at all out there with my casters, but I will with that change.

[deadmanet]

*snip*

As for Vol, I didn't believe CoC had any effect on the undead, as they are immune and the Vol Shadows (immune to fire and cold it seems) are what I really don't know what to do about.. Again, Disintegrate is a one-target spell and they come in droves, so soloing could be very hard indeed..

I have soloed Vol many times on my sorc, in hopes for the last random sigil piece that I need. The advice given works.

Most mobs=WoF
Golems=Web + Disentegrate
Shadows=CoC...they have to be visible for it to hit, which usually means you take a couple hits while casting.

Granted it seems easier on my end as I am running a 20th caster in there, so might be a little harder to hit/do damage to them at level.

[sirgog]

(As a bonus, I would like to be able to solo the Temple of Vol.. Shouldn't be impossible, but what am I looking for? Preferably without running out of SP halfway through the quest)

I may be asking a lot, but to be honest I got a rather nasty surprise when I found that most of my spells simply had no effect against demons and I really want to be prepared for them (and the Vol thingies) next time around.. So any and all help would be very appreciated..

Thanks in advance..

My approach to soloing DToV on Normal at level:

Spells suggested: Cone of Cold, Firewall, Haste, Jump, Delayed Blast Fireball, Fireball, Displacement, Invisibility, Dimension Door, plus any one of Disintegrate, Prismatic Ray or Prismatic Spray (this is for the five must-kill Clay Golems)

Enter, buff (Haste, Jump, Displacement) and run to the force barrier. Open both levers, cast Invisibility, run down one side (eating the trap damage, it's not much on Normal) then stand a Haste radius from the chest and fire a Cone of Cold (killing the Vol Shadows there), then Firewall the Quell, cast a D-Door and loot the chest. Repeat other side, open bottom.

Turn off Maximize and Empower for the Clay Golems, and use Disintegrate if you have it, otherwise spam the Prismatic spell until you get the Plane Shift beam on each golem. Quickly turn Metamagics back on, then burn the hell out of the Seal Keeper with your best damage spells (I cycle Fireball, DBF, Fireball, he dies fast). D-Door, use entry shrine, should be easy from here.

[tinyelvis]

I agree that raids are not stalled waiting for arcanes, but that doesn't mean they're not critical. It just means they're not additive, and two (or one!) can fulfill the need of the entire raid.

Divines would have the same problem, but at least on Cannith there isn't enough divines worth their weight in spit to fill the needed roles. More people like to play arcanes, so even with similar percentage of value-players the absolute number of them is high enough to reach critical mass and fill needed spots.

Imagine how rogues feel, where the current joke on Cannith is that they're only brought because they have less damage type numbers per hit, so thus create less lag.

Although I will say that ToD, part 3 in particular, is the reason I got reconstruct on my drow sorc. There's only so much thumb twiddling between FtS'ing orthons one can do. However, being able to tell people to suck it when they demand GH was worth it, all on its own.

Having played UO, EQ, DaoC and WoW, and arcane style characters in every one, it's interesting to hear the same complaints cross every game. The reality is that in DDO, arcanes lives are better than in other games. Almost always, arcanes are useful - even if just one or two of them. However, in this statement you're demanding that they be necessary, and because in reality they are necessary just not in numbers, you're by implication demanding that a raid require many arcanes to be successful. Enough so that a raid has to "stall waiting for a caster to join"

You're right. That's not going to happen. It would be bad game design if it did.

I dont understand, are you arguing for more casters TOD ready now or against?

Altho I am sure a lot of people will strongly disagree, I am putting PA on my arcanes from now on and keeping up masters touch. If ur solo'ing and now how to use a hireling the stuff in Amarath is not hard to melee.....and if ur a WF'ed it's even better...you can just self repair.

You don't have to sacrifice your casting aspects neither to do this...quite honestly, I think Amarath is just too melee oriented to try and get by with just SP. I personally don't have any fun at all out there with my casters, but I will with that change.

I hear your pain, Shavarath saw a pretty big change in the direction of the game that really was starting to become very anti sorcerer. A lot of people were not ready or willing to play their arcanes at the offensive level necessary to do well there. This trend has only accelerated since then, in epic play the anti sorcerer move is much worse. I suppose if you can't beat them join them. I expect to see lots of melee sorcs in the near future.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I hear your pain, Shavarath saw a pretty big change in the direction of the game that really was starting to become very anti sorcerer. A lot of people were not ready or willing to play their arcanes at the offensive level necessary to do well there. This trend has only accelerated since then, in epic play the anti sorcerer move is much worse. I suppose if you can't beat them join them. I expect to see lots of melee sorcs in the near future.

I know right.....it's not so bad tho...I mean arcanes still own 95% of the game soooo.....

[Spiffyspiffy]

I dont understand, are you arguing for more casters TOD ready now or against?

If I must summarize, I'd do so by stating that arcanes are plenty necessary now and creating a situation where raids are "stalled waiting for a caster to join" are counter productive and not likely to happen. In this game or any future game.

[Cerwan]

Hmm.. PA may well be a viable solution, but is this also true for a TR?
I wanted to work in the TR Sorc feat, which may be hard enough to begin with, but working in PA (or any combat feat for that matter) on top of that, seems tough indeed..

Is Maximize worth having at all ??(as I don't use it all that often in the end-game, being more focused on CC) But again, from time to time, Maximize does make everything go easier..

So, if I am to make my TR WF Sorc into a melee sorc, what should I change?
(And is it a viable solution to begin with?)