Fix Delera's Tomb

[Iakona]

So you kill the specter and the regular skeletons after you pick up the note. The exit is still barred by a gate, and you are automaticaly assaulted by over a dozen ghostly skeletons? Ghost Touch doesn't hit them, conventional weapons will not hit them, and you start to run for the entrance because you cannot finish out without getting interrupted. What happens now? Well I am sure when the game came first came out the party would survive and exit. Now however, the party gets harried with a red dungeon alert and gets wiped.


Come on Turbine, if you finish a quest, the end (while it may have *OPTIONALS* left) should not mean a party wipe because the level 5's that went into it don't have special weapons to fight an optional MOB.

Fix it.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

It's not broken, its working as intended. It's part of the story line if you read the text that follows. And they aren't "ghosts" so GT won't work (bad name for them, I know). Holy, pure good, or that fun club you get during the conversation you didn't read after that quest takes care of them.

[Rodrak]

It's not broken, its working as intended. It's part of the story line if you read the text that follows. And they aren't "ghosts" so GT won't work (bad name for them, I know). Holy, pure good, or that fun club you get during the conversation you didn't read after that quest takes care of them.

Uhm, you get the club after finishing part 1... he is talking about part 1 But of course the quest should be left as it is. It's a nice lesson about DR

[Iakona]

Uhm, you get the club after finishing part 1... he is talking about part 1 But of course the quest should be left as it is. It's a nice lesson about DR

It was a nice lesson before Turbine decided to put in the dungeon alert system and harry. Folks could run out of the dungeon knowing there was something they needed to find to go on.

Now it means a party wipe on that "lesson". Sorry but a DR lesson shouldn't mean everyone in the party dies in order to learn it. Not saying change the mobs, saying do something to make FO an option once the lesson has been learned without a party wipe. As it is now, that isn't possible. The Club of The Holy Flame is given AFTER the first Delera's tomb quest. It was done that way as a reason when Delera's graveyard first came out. The OPTIONAL Ghostly Skeletons taught you the DR lesson and about the need for an enhancement that would kil them in future quests in that zone. HOWEVER, there was NO harry and dungeon alert system. That meant the questers could actually escape the dungeon alive. SINCE THEN Turbine has implemented the alert system. Now surviving the run to the front door is almost impossible and guarantees a party wipe. I am telling them THIS part of the quest needs updated as well and fixed.

Even a delayed timer on the gate to allow for eventual withdrawal is preferrable to a party wipe lesson in DR.

[Docrailgun]

So you kill the specter and the regular skeletons after you pick up the note. The exit is still barred by a gate, and you are automaticaly assaulted by over a dozen ghostly skeletons? Ghost Touch doesn't hit them, conventional weapons will not hit them, and you start to run for the entrance because you cannot finish out without getting interrupted. What happens now? Well I am sure when the game came first came out the party would survive and exit. Now however, the party gets harried with a red dungeon alert and gets wiped.


Come on Turbine, if you finish a quest, the end (while it may have *OPTIONALS* left) should not mean a party wipe because the level 5's that went into it don't have special weapons to fight an optional MOB.

Fix it.

You know, of course, that if your party hides in the corners and THEN someone gets the note, they're likely to be able to start finishing out immediately after someone picks up the note, finishing before they're discovered and interrupted?

[azrael4h]

At the least, don't overload the thing to the point that dungeon alert immediately pops into red. It is very bad design, from any standpoint. It doesn't teach a lesson, it ensures that people get ****ed and leave.

Any time you require a total wipeout of the player in order to proceed, and you're not giving them a run in the netherworld or whatever the afterlife of your game is, then you have a bad design. Requiring them to sit still and swing for over a half-hour or more is also bad design. Currently, Deleras 1 pops into red alert, and you get slowed to no end. The sheer number of skeletons means you can't move anyway, so you sit there and wail away for 45 mins. Or you can die. Which takes forever as the idiots can't hit the broad side of a barn.

Delera's was the last adventure pack I bought. And I'm not sure I'll ever buy another one, after that suckfest. I only get a few hours here and there to play, spending the better part of one standing still unable to move or swing at a decent rate surrounded by skeletons is not fun. And yes, I have a PG staff (from Catacombs). It was a boring, idiotic design that should have resulted in the designer being humiliated and fired, and a complete waste of time. I have considered demanding a refund for the pack, based on it's plain out and out bad design.

[Varhann]

Don't "fix it", please. The little surprise at the end of part 1 is one of the things that make this adventure pack so much fun for first timers.

So you die the first time, maybe? Wiping in DDO is good for the soul and teaches you to think, which only improves your performance. There are many places in part 1 where you can safely finish out, even with dungeon alert at red. It's not like you wipe before you are awarded your xp and completion.

Delaras is meant to be a challenge, particularly for first timers. Please don't dilute it.

[azrael4h]

It's not challenging. Not that part. It's a boring, slow, laggy grind. If I wanted to spend an hour holding my left mouse button it and doing nothing else, I'd play that one mmo where you could stand around and mine ore all day if you wanted.

And no, forced wiping is not "good for the soul". It too is a waste of time. When a quest is designed to wipe a party, then it's very very bad design. No DM would create such a situation, no legitimate video game designer would create such a situation.

This is of course not mentioning bad groups who wipe. That's because of bad players, and is probably unavoidable unless one or two are very good and the rest just really bad. In Delera's 1's case, it's bad design because you have no means of survival or not mining ore the rest of the week. You're just stuck; dead or swinging away due to moronic decisions. No amount of cocaine-laced whiskey can make that part good.

[Iakona]

You know, of course, that if your party hides in the corners and THEN someone gets the note, they're likely to be able to start finishing out immediately after someone picks up the note, finishing before they're discovered and interrupted?

First you can't "hide". The skeletons see through sneak. Second, you are suggesting that someone in the party still die in order to learn the "lesson" and allow the party to get out of the dungeon because of *optional* mobs.

The dungeon was not originally designed like that and wasn't meant for that at all. The party could run to the entrance. Because Turbine has introduced something else into the game (dungeon alert and harry) the original dungeon design no longer works as intended. This indicates the need for a "fix". As with any game, when new things are introduced (such as dungeon alert and harrying) that affect gameplay throught the game, some things are bound to be overlooked. I am sure Turbine never intended nor do I think they want folks to get discouraged and quit the game over something so simple to fix. Simple? Yes. They already have code for delayed locks on gates. Copying and pasting this code into this particular instance to allow for an eventual backdoor out of the room is a viable fix. And should be simple and easy to implement without changing the original intent of inroducing the skeletons into the game 2 levels prior to the actual dungeon levels of the rest of the series.

I for one, do not see any reduction in series challenge whatsoever in allowing for the survivability of a group. A delayed timer door in a single quest would still allow for the "thrill" of not being able to attack a mob or defend against it from which some people obviously get a great deal of enjoyment. If they actually do enjoy dieing from it as much as they like to state in the forums, no one forces them to take the back door out, do they?

[Visty]

on korthos you get a flaming weapon

that does always 1 damage against those skellys

so if you have nothing to hurt them, youve done something wrong

[Calebro]

First you can't "hide". The skeletons see through sneak. Second, you are suggesting that someone in the party still die in order to learn the "lesson" and allow the party to get out of the dungeon because of *optional* mobs.

The dungeon was not originally designed like that and wasn't meant for that at all. The party could run to the entrance. Because Turbine has introduced something else into the game (dungeon alert and harry) the original dungeon design no longer works as intended. This indicates the need for a "fix". As with any game, when new things are introduced (such as dungeon alert and harrying) that affect gameplay throught the game, some things are bound to be overlooked. I am sure Turbine never intended nor do I think they want folks to get discouraged and quit the game over something so simple to fix. Simple? Yes. They already have code for delayed locks on gates. Copying and pasting this code into this particular instance to allow for an eventual backdoor out of the room is a viable fix. And should be simple and easy to implement without changing the original intent of inroducing the skeletons into the game 2 levels prior to the actual dungeon levels of the rest of the series.

Hide the group behind the pillars. No line of sight.
Just kill the ones in that room and finish out. If you don't have a good aligned weapon, this will take longer but can still be done fairly easily. It's when you leave that room that you'll run into trouble.

There is nothing broken about this chain. In fact, most consider it to be one of the best chains available. You're just crying when you should instead be trying again and learning from your mistakes.
Have fun next time!

[Artos_Fabril]

And no, forced wiping is not "good for the soul". It too is a waste of time. When a quest is designed to wipe a party, then it's very very bad design. No DM would create such a situation, no legitimate video game designer would create such a situation.

Temple of Elemental Evil, Tomb of Horrors, Against the Giants...

All I knew going into it the first Time was that Gary Gygax narrated it, and I already knew the party was going to get bent over the barrel.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Firstly, the vet's perspective. If you are in sneak when you pick it up and do not move you can finish out in complete safety.

Secondly, I agree that a minor change would be beneficial to newer players. Keep the ambush and everything, but throw those clubs into that last chest rather than getting them between part 1 and 2, or (as was mentioned) put a timer on the gate.

[Iakona]

on korthos you get a flaming weapon

that does always 1 damage against those skellys

so if you have nothing to hurt them, youve done something wrong

Funny, my flaming mace (you know, the one I used on every other skeleton in the quest prior) wouldn't touch them. Missed every shot. Wasn't until I got a holy weapon that I could even touch them. And of course that came after the party wipe. Guess things just work out different for some folks.

[Uska]

It's not challenging. Not that part. It's a boring, slow, laggy grind. If I wanted to spend an hour holding my left mouse button it and doing nothing else, I'd play that one mmo where you could stand around and mine ore all day if you wanted.

And no, forced wiping is not "good for the soul". It too is a waste of time. When a quest is designed to wipe a party, then it's very very bad design. No DM would create such a situation, no legitimate video game designer would create such a situation.

This is of course not mentioning bad groups who wipe. That's because of bad players, and is probably unavoidable unless one or two are very good and the rest just really bad. In Delera's 1's case, it's bad design because you have no means of survival or not mining ore the rest of the week. You're just stuck; dead or swinging away due to moronic decisions. No amount of cocaine-laced whiskey can make that part good.

it doesnt take an hour and you only have to kill a few to be able to finish out either use flametouched iron, pure good or holy and you no problems damaging them heck even elemental weapons do some damage them and proably everyone has at least an ember weapon. the quest is fine and fun no changes needed wanted or warrented

[Uska]

Not broken quest is fine and fun the way it is.

[uhgungawa]

Just pick up a Pure Good, Holy, or Flametouch weapon and you're good to go (they don't even have to be blunt for the ghost skellies)

[Iakona]

There is nothing broken about this chain. In fact, most consider it to be one of the best chains available. You're just crying when you should instead be trying again and learning from your mistakes.
Have fun next time!

Never said anything was broken about the chain. Not suggesting at all the chain have anything done to fix it. I said this quest is broken. And with the introduction of the dungeon alert system and harry, yes it is broken. Broken meaning it no longer works in the manner in which it was originally designed. Which it does not. When things in games no longer work as originally intended or designed most people agree that a fix is in order.

[Dozen_Black_Roses]

First you can't "hide". The skeletons see through sneak. Second, you are suggesting that someone in the party still die in order to learn the "lesson" and allow the party to get out of the dungeon because of *optional* mobs.

The dungeon was not originally designed like that and wasn't meant for that at all. The party could run to the entrance. Because Turbine has introduced something else into the game (dungeon alert and harry) the original dungeon design no longer works as intended. This indicates the need for a "fix". As with any game, when new things are introduced (such as dungeon alert and harrying) that affect gameplay throught the game, some things are bound to be overlooked. I am sure Turbine never intended nor do I think they want folks to get discouraged and quit the game over something so simple to fix. Simple? Yes. They already have code for delayed locks on gates. Copying and pasting this code into this particular instance to allow for an eventual backdoor out of the room is a viable fix. And should be simple and easy to implement without changing the original intent of inroducing the skeletons into the game 2 levels prior to the actual dungeon levels of the rest of the series.

I for one, do not see any reduction in series challenge whatsoever in allowing for the survivability of a group. A delayed timer door in a single quest would still allow for the "thrill" of not being able to attack a mob or defend against it from which some people obviously get a great deal of enjoyment. If they actually do enjoy dieing from it as much as they like to state in the forums, no one forces them to take the back door out, do they?

Sorry but YOU may not be able to hide/sneak, but I can and so can many others, both before dungeon alert and after it was implemented. All it takes is some skill in hide, perhaps an action boost, a hide item, and/or an invis or heroism potion. Now will every party have those options? No, but that is why some can sneak and have everyone fo without having to fight ANY of the mobs that appear after you pick up the note, and others will have to fight them. That is one of the best features of this game, there are many ways to tackle a quest/dungeon, and you will modify your plan based on the party make up and available resources (i.e. gear, skills, spells, experience, etc.)

Delera's, among other things, is another quest where you will need skill and tactics to maximize your efficiency, and it is an important lesson to teach people as they are leveling about DR. This is why some people can run the quest chain before their house p buffs run out, and others it will take almost two hours.

[Artos_Fabril]

[...W]ith the introduction of the dungeon alert system and harry, yes it is broken. Broken meaning it no longer works in the manner in which it was originally designed. Which it does not. When things in games no longer work as originally intended or designed most people agree that a fix is in order.

Since dungeon alert was introduced, nothing designed before its introduction works exactly as designed. When you change a game mechanic, everything from before the change works (or should work) in a different way than it did originally, otherwise your changes changed nothing.

The dungeon was not originally designed like that and wasn't meant for that at all. The party could run to the entrance. Because Turbine has introduced something else into the game (dungeon alert and harry) the original dungeon design no longer works as intended.

Why not just call this thread what it is and start the umpteenth petition to remove the dungeon alert mechanic?


So far we're looking at about a 50/50 split (out of the statistically insignificant set of forum goers who've posted here). I suspect the general population feels the same way, if they care at all, so there certainly isn't the overwhelming support for this that still fails to get attention on bigger issues.