Question about quicken

[acidtiger]

Hrm, quoting isn't working for me...

Sirgog,
You are the expert, and I don't mean that sarcastically.. My comment was based purely on personal experience and I would certainly not disagree with having much less experience than you. But to be quite honest, I haven't run into a situation yet where Empower Healing and ardor clickies hasn't been enough. That would include epic content and TOD. The only time I seem to have trouble keeping ppl alive is healing first base with NO CC. /RANT/. Yes, lag and low hp groups changes everything, but I've been lucky as of late to not have run into too much of either of those.

[Redlotusninjagrl]

I used to keep up my concentration but I have decided to put those points elsewhere and just keep quicken on. I turn it off to buff, but otherwise leave it on. Your spells cannot be interrupted, which isn't always the case even with high concentration. And being able to spam mass heal, mccw, mcsw really saves my parties at higher levels. I think this is a MUST, but then that is my opinion.

[Skeptisaurus]

Combat casting I do not feel is obsolete: 90% of the time I am uninterrupted for zero extra spell points. I can turn on Quicken when I'm deep in the SHT or have a BB or other time consuming cast to do.

Not changing cool-down time, I am disappointed. Haven't tried it out yet (been soloing for favor since I traded for it) so TYVM for the warning. Happy at least though that I am shaving time.

Greater command is usually always loaded, I just use it w/caution because I am afraid it will be a waste. Cometfall I will probably load again when I have another spell slot - nuked a beholder once w/Firefall (not by myself, I just finished the job) so I see value there also.

Agree also on not healing zurgers, another waste. Yes I see the value for mass heal distance but mass-heal speed still makes the trade-off something I do not regret.

Got a lot of good info too from this thread, as to what exactly to use it for so TYVM again to everyone.

End of day I agree with acidtiger - a lot of this is is style choice.

PS: What do I need to do to get a personal avatar on here?

[joaofalcao]

Hello.

If someone is taking so much damage as to require quicken spell..... its better to let it die. After all, hes gonna drain your mana. Someone else should be holding the agro.

Theres 2 kinds of clerics(gross view).

The teamplayer, wich plans and agree on strategies to better manage the agro and maximize the cleric mana and utility as well of the party.

The babysitter, wich runs after zerging players with no sense of strategy(or patience) whatsoever. A babysitter could use the mentioned feat.

Sure thing this is dependant on the party, but you got to choose wich kind of cleric you want to be.

[zorander6]

I didn't read the forums before building my first character so I accidentally gimped it by taking eschew materials (go ahead and laugh) Haven't been able to get enough dragonshard fragments together to change that to quicken but it would be nice to have when I'm soloing. :/

[The_Great_Samulas]

Quicken is a powerful feat that can greatly reduce your reaction time and save characters from catastrophic damage. Because of this, many actually use it constantly, as has been mentioned. The down-side of this is healers actually become reliant upon it and never grow out of its use. You don't need it on almost all of the time once you are experienced (and provided you have concentration). People get used to it though and decide they can no longer keep people up without it. Quicken doesn't help you with interruption on heal scrolls, so if you have no concentration you can be interrupted by just about anything, when scrolling (a big mana saving technique). Quicken itself wastes tons of mana (15-20% of your mana pool will go to quickening on proficient caster, more if not). On an end stage cleric with 2100-2300 mana this is 315-460 mana just to quicken things. Basically a mana pot. Not to mention the fact that it actuallly can kill mana saving healing techniques you can use, because only big heals are actually feasible with quicken. And what about actually being a cleric and not a healbot? You going to quicken all your offensive spells too?

There are techniques to prevent interuption of spells that you will never learn if you don't try to wean yourself off the quicken crutch. You can't even try them if you don't get concentration. One of the biggest mana saving things a caster of any type needs to learn is the proper use of metamagics. You can always spot the cleric relying upon quicken - he's the one with no mana...

[Arlathen]

Quicken is a powerful feat that can greatly reduce your reaction time and save characters from catastrophic damage. Because of this, many actually use it constantly, as has been mentioned. The down-side of this is healers actually become reliant upon it and never grow out of its use. You don't need it on almost all of the time once you are experienced (and provided you have concentration). People get used to it though and decide they can no longer keep people up without it. Quicken doesn't help you with interruption on heal scrolls, so if you have no concentration you can be interrupted by just about anything, when scrolling (a big mana saving technique). Quicken itself wastes tons of mana (15-20% of your mana pool will go to quickening on proficient caster, more if not). On an end stage cleric with 2100-2300 mana this is 315-460 mana just to quicken things. Basically a mana pot. Not to mention the fact that it actuallly can kill mana saving healing techniques you can use, because only big heals are actually feasible with quicken. And what about actually being a cleric and not a healbot? You going to quicken all your offensive spells too?

There are techniques to prevent interuption of spells that you will never learn if you don't try to wean yourself off the quicken crutch. You can't even try them if you don't get concentration. One of the biggest mana saving things a caster of any type needs to learn is the proper use of metamagics. You can always spot the cleric relying upon quicken - he's the one with no mana...

Read. Digest. Follow Advice.

Sam The Man has some great points here, you should really heed.

[Tarnoc]

Quicken is a powerful feat that can greatly reduce your reaction time and save characters from catastrophic damage. Because of this, many actually use it constantly, as has been mentioned. The down-side of this is healers actually become reliant upon it and never grow out of its use. You don't need it on almost all of the time once you are experienced (and provided you have concentration). People get used to it though and decide they can no longer keep people up without it. Quicken doesn't help you with interruption on heal scrolls, so if you have no concentration you can be interrupted by just about anything, when scrolling (a big mana saving technique). Quicken itself wastes tons of mana (15-20% of your mana pool will go to quickening on proficient caster, more if not). On an end stage cleric with 2100-2300 mana this is 315-460 mana just to quicken things. Basically a mana pot. Not to mention the fact that it actuallly can kill mana saving healing techniques you can use, because only big heals are actually feasible with quicken. And what about actually being a cleric and not a healbot? You going to quicken all your offensive spells too?

There are techniques to prevent interuption of spells that you will never learn if you don't try to wean yourself off the quicken crutch. You can't even try them if you don't get concentration. One of the biggest mana saving things a caster of any type needs to learn is the proper use of metamagics. You can always spot the cleric relying upon quicken - he's the one with no mana...

well actually i dont run outta mana unles its a real bad situation...i always keep quicken on and good luck with your conc saving you from archers in epic content like epic offering...

P.S.if your spells are interupted only a few times that mana cost will = or be greater then the total use of quicken

[EKKM]

Hrm, quoting isn't working for me...

Sirgog,
You are the expert, and I don't mean that sarcastically.. My comment was based purely on personal experience and I would certainly not disagree with having much less experience than you. But to be quite honest, I haven't run into a situation yet where Empower Healing and ardor clickies hasn't been enough. That would include epic content and TOD. The only time I seem to have trouble keeping ppl alive is healing first base with NO CC. /RANT/. Yes, lag and low hp groups changes everything, but I've been lucky as of late to not have run into too much of either of those.

I agree, I do have maximize and rarely need it even in raids. With superior ardor VIII, empower healing with enhancements I can chain heal quite efficiently. I know maximize is more mana efficient but it also wastes a lot of HP overhealing. Its one of those theoretical concepts that doesnt hold true in practice.

[QUOTE=Skeptisaurus;2984931]Combat casting I do not feel is obsolete: 90% of the time I am uninterrupted for zero extra spell points. I can turn on Quicken when I'm deep in the SHT or have a BB or other time consuming cast to do.

QUOTE]

The issue with compbat casting is that that 90% of the time you dont fail, it wouldn't have helped anyway. Chances are you are succeeeding by a wdie margin and the feat isnnt actually helping. When you fail its likely because you take a big chunk of damage and the extra wouldn't help anyway as it was auto-fail. I'm sure there are times when it made the difference but I'm not sure it's worth a feat.

I didn't read the forums before building my first character so I accidentally gimped it by taking eschew materials (go ahead and laugh) Haven't been able to get enough dragonshard fragments together to change that to quicken but it would be nice to have when I'm soloing. :/

You can talk to Lockania in the market to do a quest to get a free feat respec. However, a lot of people save this for higher levels as feat respecs are very expensive then.

[Kralgnax]

Quicken and maxed concentrate are both essential for any normal-ish (1) cleric build.
Concentration is, of course, always on. Quicken is on & off situationally.





(1) I'd say any cleric build, but it seems like there are always exotic builds that work grossly diffrently than anything else

[kinar]

I've always said that quicken was only good for soloing (and even then only on a poorly built cleric and/or in special circumstances while soloing).

The only exception to this might be mass heal.

[hockeyrama]

with max concentration on most quests quicken is not essential unless you are a battle cleric type. however, later there is mass damage spells and you will need the quicken there.

Another alternative is dragonmarks for individual healing as they are not interupted. However, they are alot of feats to take. I like them as with fully powered they are great single player heals. So again as mentioned before you have options and need to see what you like.

[Skeptisaurus]

Thinking after reading replies that Quicken and Enlarge both should have been left by the wayside...

[sirgog]

Hrm, quoting isn't working for me...

Sirgog,
You are the expert, and I don't mean that sarcastically.. My comment was based purely on personal experience and I would certainly not disagree with having much less experience than you. But to be quite honest, I haven't run into a situation yet where Empower Healing and ardor clickies hasn't been enough. That would include epic content and TOD. The only time I seem to have trouble keeping ppl alive is healing first base with NO CC. /RANT/. Yes, lag and low hp groups changes everything, but I've been lucky as of late to not have run into too much of either of those.

There's plenty of experts on these forums. And people (like me) that run a cleric as their main can get things wrong too. That said, here's why I recommend Maximize on a healbot.

1) Combining Maximize and either Empower feat (Emp Spell or Emp Healing) is required to prevent wipes in Tower of Despair if two shadowfiends get up on the throne. On Normal, that's ~440 damage per 2 seconds, and you are often solohealing it as other Clerics tend to die to that level of damage. You can put out about 240 healing per second by cycling four Mass Cures with Superior Ardor 8, Cleric Life Magic 4, Maximize and (one of the) Empower feats. Usually you only need to keep this up for ten to fifteen seconds, while another kiter takes over or Nytharios dies.

Not having Maximize puts you around 140 healing per second in this situation - i.e. reliant on at least one other cleric surviving, or fortuitous critical heals. Relying on lucky crits is not a situation you want to be in (and is why I invest very little in crit heal equipment and enhancements).

2) Combining Maximize and (one or both Empower feats) turns your Cure Critical Wounds into an emergency Heal substitute.

Sometimes Heal is on cooldown, and someone is going to die. This is common in Epic dungeons (when you aggro a few too many foes) and in these times, it's important to be *quickly* able to fire off a ~200-250 point healing spell, whatever the mana cost. Max-Empped CCW is highly inefficient (in terms of healing per mana) but may just save the life of someone that's going to cost 200 mana to raise and rebuff. It also has a very short cooldown, unlike Mass Cure Critical Wounds, so in really intense situations, it can be used multiple times (although if you do this, expect to be chugging mana potions).

3) Even healbots - hell, even low-wisdom melee builds - can sometimes effectively use a maximized Blade Barrier.

Sins of Attrition (normal, all optionals) is a fantastic loot run - that takes much longer without Maximize Spell. BB tears up the Inspired Quarter, even on my Clr18/Ftr2 with 26 Wisdom. Shroud trash is torn apart by BBs too, even on Elite.

I wouldn't take Maximize on Numot just for Bladebarrier, but it's a nice bonus to have with a feat I'd probably take anyway.

Thinking after reading replies that Quicken and Enlarge both should have been left by the wayside...

Enlarge, yeah, leave it by the wayside.

Quicken is astounding, but just not for a couple more levels. From 11-16 you'll occasionally have it on, but mostly have it off. After 17, I seldom turn it off at all (mainly for buffing after shrining, or for the rare situations (like Horoth) where Heal is a more efficient spell than Mass Heal.

[biggin]

QFT. Mass Heal takes 8 seconds to cast. Doesn't sound that long until you are waiting for it.

You gotta love those "Oh ****" moments after you buff everyone up, the fight starts, you cast your 1st Mass Heal and see yourself in slow motion.

[Redlotusninjagrl]

Hello.

If someone is taking so much damage as to require quicken spell..... its better to let it die. After all, hes gonna drain your mana. Someone else should be holding the agro.

Theres 2 kinds of clerics(gross view).

The teamplayer, wich plans and agree on strategies to better manage the agro and maximize the cleric mana and utility as well of the party.

The babysitter, wich runs after zerging players with no sense of strategy(or patience) whatsoever. A babysitter could use the mentioned feat.

Sure thing this is dependant on the party, but you got to choose wich kind of cleric you want to be.

At lower levels, no you don't need quicken. At higher levels and especially in raids, you do need it. I am all for letting people die in lower level quests. But the mobs hit hard higher up and you have to be able to heal fast. Sometimes you have multiple people healing the group because of this.

I took quicken because even with maximizing concentration and wearing a "blank" of steady spellcasting, I was getting interrupted. Concentration did not help me get my spells out. Perhaps I need more luck to get a better concentration roll.

[Spoonwelder]

Gonna hijack and ask how important is heighten. I am running a CL17 CC/Heal focused cleric (WIS 30 if it matters

As I do some CC, I have found my bread and butter from earlier levels are not hitting. Running in the Vale and Destruction is still working most of the time, but G. Command, Soundburst, Cometfall are all failing to supply any crowd control and Banish is maybe 30-50% effective....is that to be expected in the Vale and related quests or would Heighten pump up the results on those.

Oh and another question - in reading this thread someone mentioned Blade Barrier in conjunction with Wisdom somehow affecting it? I don't think so based upon experience (CR2 creatures getting 1/2 damage while I was farming some favor)but.... is there a DC to BB or is it just purely reflex save for 1/2 and it is dependant upon the creature not me?

[vVAnjilaVv]

Really, use Quicken whenever you know u will be taking a lot of damage urself, when u absolutely have to get off no fail healing and when u need to cast a spell that takes a long time to cast and you have aggro.....like Blade Barrier or Symbol spells.

Probably some other times it is useful, but these are the three I am thinking of right now......also you really can get by without quicken until 12th if u keep your concentration maxxed and have an item on, which until 11th you can easily use a helm, and those are abundant.