Weapon Finesse

[Aesop]

A while ago there was a thread that requested that instead of making weapon finesse a feat to purchase instead it was granted for free. The arguement being that building ones combat around this feat typically left a character weaker in combat than if they had just put mor epoints into strength. You were essentially paying to be a weaker character.

People complained that it shouldn't be because it granted them an effect to alter the Stat used to determine attack rolls. Others said that the advantaged of Strength based far outweighed this ability; citing higher acheivable strength and vastly superior damage as being superior to the ability to substitue Dex for strength for attack rolls.

Some people thought that maybe if Weapon Finesse also added Dex to damage that it would be better balanced. This thought was tossed around a few times and several permutations. Full dexterity to damage, half dexterity and full strength, half strength and full dexterity, dexterity as a bonus to critical hit damage. and so on.

Well I'm not sure that it is a "new" idea really but I wanted to throw this idea out there anyway.


I thought of it when I remembered that Unarmed Combat for Monks is faster than weapon combat by nearly 12%. Then I thought, "Well the advantage of large heavy weapons is in the power that they can bring to bare against a target while the advantage of the smaller lighter weapons is that they can be brought to bare against a target more quickly and in rapid succession.

Instead of straight damage how about just a small increase in Rate of Attack (RoA). This of course would only apply to finessed weapons and just using a finesse weapon wouldn't grant this bonus, you would actually have to be using dexterity as the bonus to attack, indicating a quick precise strikes instead of the strong sure strikes of strength based combat.

I'm away for much of the weekend so I may not respond til sunday night or monday morning... but feel free to respond.


Aesop

[Failedlegend]

Hmmmm....thats definately something that could work quite well only problem ican see is how would it affect any finesse monks?

[osirisisis]

A while ago there was a thread that requested that instead of making weapon finesse a feat to purchase instead it was granted for free. The arguement being that building ones combat around this feat typically left a character weaker in combat than if they had just put mor epoints into strength. You were essentially paying to be a weaker character.

People complained that it shouldn't be because it granted them an effect to alter the Stat used to determine attack rolls. Others said that the advantaged of Strength based far outweighed this ability; citing higher acheivable strength and vastly superior damage as being superior to the ability to substitue Dex for strength for attack rolls.

Some people thought that maybe if Weapon Finesse also added Dex to damage that it would be better balanced. This thought was tossed around a few times and several permutations. Full dexterity to damage, half dexterity and full strength, half strength and full dexterity, dexterity as a bonus to critical hit damage. and so on.

Well I'm not sure that it is a "new" idea really but I wanted to throw this idea out there anyway.


I thought of it when I remembered that Unarmed Combat for Monks is faster than weapon combat by nearly 12%. Then I thought, "Well the advantage of large heavy weapons is in the power that they can bring to bare against a target while the advantage of the smaller lighter weapons is that they can be brought to bare against a target more quickly and in rapid succession.

Instead of straight damage how about just a small increase in Rate of Attack (RoA). This of course would only apply to finessed weapons and just using a finesse weapon wouldn't grant this bonus, you would actually have to be using dexterity as the bonus to attack, indicating a quick precise strikes instead of the strong sure strikes of strength based combat.

I'm away for much of the weekend so I may not respond til sunday night or monday morning... but feel free to respond.


Aesop

I'd like to see a 6% RoA for weapons finesse seems very logically sound the way you explained it and/or a feat add to get dex damage.

Maybe something to the tune of:

Weapons finesse goes to a inherent feat for rangers and rouges around level 16 to give them a little balance over the new 12 fit 6 ranger 2 monk monster build, with an option to switch it out if you take it before that.

Weapons finesse damage feat added that goes to the dex mod for damage with finesseables, is not inherent to any class or race and you have to spend a feat on it.

With the feats that are in place like force of personality and others like it in DDO and the others that are in 3.5 AD&D... why not have a feat for dex mod for damage. In its defense(no pun intented), weapons finesse can't use khopesh or the Sword of Shadows, AC is worthless at epic level, it would cost 2 feats, there's no buffs like rage, ram might, or power surge etc for dex, and probably on the average only equate to some around 4 extra base damage on average I'm guessing.

[TreknaQudane]

I think that's more reasonable and with the feats that are in place like force of personality and others like it in DDO and the others that are in 3.5 AD&D... why not have a feat for dex mod for damage.

Because you get the bonus of Dex to Attack, Damage, Defense, and Reflex Saves as compared to Str to Attack and Damage?

I have finesse characters and I still don't want a feat like this. Going for the bonuses of a higher dexterity should mean you WONT have the damage.

[Silver_Darkness]

How about having Dex control movement speed and attack speed so weapon finesse users trade less damage for more attacks, this will also help ranged combat increasing rate of fire and the ability to keep your distance. I am curious to know why there are no exotic weapons that work with weapon finesse?

[honkuimushi]

How about having Dex control movement speed and attack speed so weapon finesse users trade less damage for more attacks, this will also help ranged combat increasing rate of fire and the ability to keep your distance. I am curious to know why there are no exotic weapons that work with weapon finesse?

There are, kamas. There are a few more in PnP, but they weren't considered important enough to be added to DDO. But overall, there are fewer finessable weapons than not and that is also reflected in exotic weapons. I don't think the ratio is that different from simple and martial weapons either.

[redoubt]

Love to see it huge bias, weapons finesse goes to dex mod for damage also and becomes a inherent feat.............WRONG....to strong.

How about more grounded:

Weapons finesse goes to a inherent feat for rangers and rouges around level 16 to give them a little balance over the new 12 fit 6 ranger 2 monk monster build, with an option to switch it out if you take it before that.

Weapons finesse damage feat added that goes to the dex mod for damage with finesseables, is not inherent to any class or race and you have to spend a feat on it.

I think that's more reasonable and with the feats that are in place like force of personality and others like it in DDO and the others that are in 3.5 AD&D... why not have a feat for dex mod for damage. In its defense(no pun intented), weapons finesse can't use khopesh or the Sword of Shadows, AC is worthless at epic level, it would cost 2 feats, there's no buffs like rage, ram might, or power surge etc for dex, and probably on the average only equate to some around 4 extra base damage on average I'm guessing.

Slow down bud. Aesop's suggestion was non of that. She suggested a small attack rate increase.

[Failedlegend]

Slow down bud. Aesop's suggestion was non of that. She suggested a small attack rate increase.

Now now thats the rule of the forums.....read one or two words...assume you know what the rest says than complain about it .

Heres how to test it make a comment about clerics.....type anything after it.....no on will notice (but keep it with the rules of course)

[osirisisis]

Now now thats the rule of the forums.....read one or two words...assume you know what the rest says than complain about it .

Heres how to test it make a comment about clerics.....type anything after it.....no on will notice (but keep it with the rules of course)

Ya you got me on that one I jumped the gun big on this one =) oops

[Angelus_dead]

Instead of straight damage how about just a small increase in Rate of Attack (RoA).

Increasing attack speed would be more powerful and difficult to balance than simply giving some +X to weapon damage.

This of course would only apply to finessed weapons and just using a finesse weapon wouldn't grant this bonus, you would actually have to be using dexterity as the bonus to attack, indicating a quick precise strikes instead of the strong sure strikes of strength based combat.

That would lead to an occasional perverse situation: a player losing combat effectiveness because someone gave him a strength buff.

I'm away for much of the weekend so I may not respond til sunday night or monday morning... but feel free to respond.

Although a feat to allow dex to contribute to damage would be easier to balance, it would still tend to be overpowered and harmful. You'd have to carefully limit it, such as only letting it work on weapons that are otherwise bad (like weak crit profiles)

However, here's something fairly divergent from what you want. It has some basis in D&D rules, and wouldn't be overpowered as far as weapon offense.

Feat: Einhander
Requires: Weapon Finesse or Combat Expertise
Benefit: When your offhand is empty you gain certain benefits in combat. Attacks made with a finesse weapon add half your dexterity modifier to the damage roll, and you may add your intelligence bonus to your AC (to a maximum of your armor's max dex limit). That AC bonus won't stack with monk wisdom AC.

That feat would be interesting, as it gives Rogues or Fighters a way to get an effect resembling monk wisdom AC while remaining pure class. (Note that handwraps take up both hand slots, so they don't count)

[Artos_Fabril]

Feat: Einhander
Requires: Weapon Finesse or Combat Expertise
Benefit: When your offhand is empty you gain certain benefits in combat. Attacks made with a finesse weapon add half your dexterity modifier to the damage roll, and you may add your intelligence bonus to your AC (to a maximum of your armor's max dex limit). That AC bonus won't stack with monk wisdom AC.

That feat would be interesting, as it gives Rogues or Fighters a way to get an effect resembling monk wisdom AC while remaining pure class. (Note that handwraps take up both hand slots, so they don't count)

Interesting, yes. But not useful for actual rogues or fighters. What it would really do is give melee wizogues an weapon+AC option, and not a great one at that. A pure rogue would lose 10d6 to13d6 damage per attack sequence against sneak attackable mobs (plus the offhand weapon's damage), for a gain of 8 raw damage per swing (42dex) and maybe 10 (probably 5) AC. A finesse fighter would likely get the same or slightly lower damage and maybe 4-5AC. (versus ~9AC for a shield)

The problem is, anyone who gains anything significant from this feat has enough Dex for TWF, and likely gains more for it. (No one is getting within [Int mod] range of useful AC without well over 17 dex)

[Kriogen]

OK. But only if Power Attack does NOT work with Weapon Finnese.

Quick precise strikes or brute force. But not both.

[Angelus_dead]

Interesting, yes. But not useful for actual rogues or fighters.

Well, it would be helpful for those current Rogue characters who for some reason decided not to learn the TWF feats, as it would increase their damage above what they get with S&B. Those people are basically making a mistake, but the feat would let them mitigate it a little.

But yes, more would be needed to really to make a single one-handed weapon into a viable combat style. To achieve that should take two more feats, so the total investment is the same as for GTWF or GTHF. Some other features that could be included (all requiring an empty offhand):
* Get a Shield bonus to AC equal to your weapon's enhancement bonus.
* While using CE or defensive fighting, get a damage bonus equal to BAB/2 against foes aggroed on you.
* Apply Dexterity to melee DCs (if that would be better)
* Finesse weapon inflicts 2 strength or constitution damage on critical hits.
* On a natural 19-20 your finesse weapon has +1 critical multiplier.

That's still not quite enough to be decent, so it could also throw in some X% bonus to attack speed, where X is a pretty small number.

Important note: Pursuing a single one-handed weapon as a viable combat style would be a mistake unless plain S&B had already been fixed first.

[Rav'n]

Put it together and I'll sign it. Why should every build need to be a STR build to be a Viable Melee build?

AD... +1 on the Einhander idea. One blade is much easier to control to two... (or S&B). You're Dexterity should give an added bonus if weilding 1 Finessible weapon.

[GhoulsTouch]

There are more races and classes that have enhancements to dex then there are those that boost strength. If you want to finesse and do more damage adding rogue or fighter in would allow you to do so in getting extra damage from your sneak attacks, or enhancements to strength. Monks have fire stance to boost their strength, and barbarians have rage even if they are either toggled or temporary.

Quarterstaves I believe should be finesseable however.

[Aesop]

There are more races and classes that have enhancements to dex then there are those that boost strength. If you want to finesse and do more damage adding rogue or fighter in would allow you to do so in getting extra damage from your sneak attacks, or enhancements to strength. Monks have fire stance to boost their strength, and barbarians have rage even if they are either toggled or temporary.

Quarterstaves I believe should be finesseable however.

highest acheivable dex is about 44 or so. Highest achieveable Strength has recently topped 70

Weapon Finesse characters are inherantly weaker in DDO because of the improbability of actual useful Armor Class, lack of initiative, and lack of touch AC. Improving the DPS of Dex builds would be a good step in promoting the diversity in build style.

Aesop

[Aesop]

OK. But only if Power Attack does NOT work with Weapon Finnese.

Quick precise strikes or brute force. But not both.

no problem as soon as you get rid of the multiple stacking Rage effects and add back in some form of initiative benefit for high dexterity... maybe something like an attack benefit for the people that actually need one. I'm not against the idea of dropping Power Attack from Finesse weapons as long as it has some sort of replacement effect.

[vVAnjilaVv]

/signed....and great idea

[Aesop]

Because you get the bonus of Dex to Attack, Damage, Defense, and Reflex Saves as compared to Str to Attack and Damage?

I have finesse characters and I still don't want a feat like this. Going for the bonuses of a higher dexterity should mean you WONT have the damage.

ok so a feat to apply Dex to Attack rolls = costs a Feat that makes a weak character. It is still there indicating that people should believe that this is a good build option... which it is not

AC is a joke and not a viable defense. Constitution is a better defense attribute than Dex.


Reflex Saves without evasion are likewise a joke and if you have Evasion you can get a viable Save without having too high of a dex... the rest is overkill that doesn't matter

[vVAnjilaVv]

OK. But only if Power Attack does NOT work with Weapon Finnese.

Quick precise strikes or brute force. But not both.

Only if they make AC more viable...otherwise no way...Power Attack should stay as well.

If u have the 13 STR for the pre-req it qualifies you for the feat and it should apply to a new and improved version of Weapon Finesse either way actually.

Perhaps make a pre-req Dex to qualify for Weapon Finesse which would make it a little harder to get enough points for STR and PA, but nay to omitting it period.....or make the pre-req for PA higher for finesse builds.