The Classic Rocker [20 Bard Warchanter]

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

A pure warchanter is the same dps as a barbo splash unless your'e raged (which you get one of, for like 1 minute a rest), the dps gained from fighter isn't minor, but you lose a lot across your party for the -1 attack and damage. If you want a heavy dps raid build than this is really much better than most splash builds.

Its not the same dps. Barb is faster and can rage. Fighter has extra feat and has haste boost. Both classes offer a higher BAB. You hit more often and you hit harder with either or both barb/fighter.

I want to make clear that I like, and recommend, this build. It's a real nice pure warchanter build. Pure or mixed builds, however, can bring something to a raid.

I'll agree a pure bard is a safe bet and my personal favorite type of bard. I'll also agree many that splash don't have a clue, or the wrong clue, why they splashed. For those who know why they trained in multiple classes however, and know how to take advantage of said benefits, should be highly effective. There is no such thing as a "best" bard build. Its the driver, not the car, that makes the "better bard."

[valorik]

There is no such thing as a "best" bard build. Its the driver, not the car, that makes the "better bard."

That argument devoids the point of building, saying that there's no reason to build to be the best because it's the player that matters is an idiotic statement.

Its not the same dps. Barb is faster and can rage. Fighter has extra feat and has haste boost. Both classes offer a higher BAB. You hit more often and you hit harder with either or both barb/fighter.

1: a single 2 level splash will end up with teh same BAB as a pure bard
2: I said that the dps boost from fighter is signifigant
3: Rage is neither signifigant nor sustainable dps
4: You don't need any more feats for more dps, this build twitching does the same damage as the same build with gthf twitching next update.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

That argument devoids the point of building, saying that there's no reason to build to be the best because it's the player that matters is an idiotic statement.

Not at all. You attached extra words to what I said. My point was build AND player was important. Not build alone. A great player on an good build will outplay a bad player on a good build. That's all I'm saying. And its especially true on bards. The best way to build a bard, in my opinion, is to build it to your own playstyle. Most people that play bards only play 25-50% of their bard. No matter how good your bard build is, THAT is fail in my book.

2 levels of barb will out DPS this build with speed alone, rage is only extra spicy sauce.

Again, please stop forcing me to compare my build to this build. My build offers more DPS, end of story. You can say DPS is close on paper, but in game, speed IS DPS. You should know that.

This will be my last post. I'm not going to hijaak and compare and insist which build is the better. More to a bard than DPS, even a warchanter. This thread is about "The Classic Rocker." Nice DPS, nice buffs and healing. Nice build!

[valorik]

Not at all. My point was build AND player was important. You cant always say one build is better for everyone. A great player on an average build will outplay a bad player on a great build. Thats all I'm saying. Also bards can do many things, however certain players can just take it to another level. Many cant. The best way to build a bard, in my opinion, is to build it to your own playstyle.

2 levels of barb will out DPS this build with speed alone, rage is only extra spicy sauce.

Again, please stop forcing me to compare my build to this build. My build offers more DPS, end of story. You can say DPS is close on paper, but in game, speed IS DPS. You should know that.

This will be my last post. I'm not going to hijaak and compare and insist which build is the better. This thread is about "The Classic Rocker." Nice build!

Rock told me to hijack it I swear.

This is also a very viable question that pertains to this build: is pure better

Speed might be dps against trash when you're moving from one fight to the next, however for endgame content as a bard you a: rarely want to be the first to enter content as you're most likely the least capable to hold aggro, and b: most of the biggest most dps oriented fights are stationary. Speed is a flavor decision not a dps decision, do I really need to go over this in this thread AGAIN. This has little to do with this thread.

Saying your splashed build offers more dps may be true, if you're only counting your own dps, but when you count that one extra damage and to hit over 5-8 melees the story changes.

[Zarconan]

This build is relying on Master's Touch for the free 2-handed proficiencies.

Master's Touch as it stands seems pretty poor right now (No way to see how long the buff has left, bugged with extend and disappears with weapon switching).

What would you do to compensate for that? Deal with MT, OR put in a weapon prof such as Great Sword, Great Axe (Again, you still have the problem with weapons being suboptimal against certain enemies)?

The obvious one is splashing a level for the profs, but then you lose the pure aspect.

[Anthios888]

I guess you could put in weapon proficiency: Greatsword if you were really upset about it, but I use Master's Touch all the time on my bard with no issues. It's much better than it used to be. You can check your duration in the item's description. Being that it is such a fast and cheap spell to cast, I can always hit my main weapons for any quest before I would have been done lagging from the old version.

Not sure what all the doom is about on the forums. It'd be nice if Turbine just fixed the spell to not lag, but this workaround is fine imo.

[Zarconan]

Bards are such an interesting class, so many interesting builds Thanks for posting your builds and being helpful. Makes it much easier to make informed decisions.

I'd probably try going with MT as it does allow for more flexibility. It would be perfect with extend working and a visible timer.

I guess you could put in weapon proficiency: Greatsword if you were really upset about it, but I use Master's Touch all the time on my bard with no issues. It's much better than it used to be. You can check your duration in the item's description. Being that it is such a fast and cheap spell to cast, I can always hit my main weapons for any quest before I would have been done lagging from the old version.

Not sure what all the doom is about on the forums. It'd be nice if Turbine just fixed the spell to not lag, but this workaround is fine imo.

[Rawni]

The moment of truth.

SKILLS
Concentration, Perform, Use Magic Device, Hide, Move Silently, Balance / Tumble / Jump. (Haggle optional -- either drop stealth or take only a few ranks in Balance, Tumble, and Jump)

I know this will sound a bit odd, but I find bards to be quite interesting and was thinking of making one that I would like to do up right from her creation. I am wondering just how many points you would put into each of these skills? And why you chose those numbers?

[Anthios888]

I know this will sound a bit odd, but I find bards to be quite interesting and was thinking of making one that I would like to do up right from her creation. I am wondering just how many points you would put into each of these skills? And why you chose those numbers?

For your purposes as a newer player, I think you would benefit very much from raising your haggle. It will allow you to buy and sell things more cheaply and help finance your toons. Stealth ability is a style that some people prefer, but a bard can get by just fine simply by casting the invisibility spell and running through quests fascinating. Although I have ranks in stealth on one of my bards, I use it only sparingly.

Concentration - this skill keeps you from getting interrupted when casting spells or using scrolls

Perform - this skill affects how well your fascinates land. A minimum investment is necessary to use some major bard songs. With so many skill points, it's wise to max it.

Use Magic Device - this unlocks a lot of bards' healing and versatility. You can use any race required item, throw heal and reconstruct scrolls (even though it is not one of your spells). Heal, raise dead, resist energy wands, shield wands, invis/mass invisibility scrolls, scrolls of shadow walk, teleport, greater teleport, stone to flesh, halt undead, mass spell resistance, restoration, enervation, waves of exhaustion... so many consumables are available that give a bard a really flexible spellbook and set of abilities. The higher the better (ok, above 50 there's not much gain)

Haggle - buy and sell more cheaply

Balance - get up when you're knocked down. Doesn't have to be maxed, but it's a class skill and every point helps.

Jump - jump higher. the best skill in ddo! mobility is extremely important in a dynamic game. Take this to 10 ranks and then put your points elsewhere, as it's overkill when there are other ways to boost this skill. Your high strength will help, too. Jump caps at 40, so if you get higher than that with all of your other bonuses, it won't do you any good.

Tumble - 1 rank will unlock this ability. Shift + movement allows you to do it. Useful for a bunch of stuff, like moving through water, avoiding giants, getting away when you're knocked down, and other twitchy stuff like that.

[Tigernach]

Not sure what all the doom is about on the forums. It'd be nice if Turbine just fixed the spell to not lag, but this workaround is fine imo.

I haven't seen anyone else mention this, but Master's Touch isn't currently affected by Extend Spell now--it will suck down the 10 extra SP, but still only lasts 1 min per level. It's a very frustrating bug.

[Darkrok]

The newest iteration of Master's Touch is really nice for this build. Make sure to turn off extend, equip each weapon you'll need to use, cast master's touch for each one, and you're ready to rock until the next shrine.

Also, just saw this build linked from another thread and have to say I'm loving the WF'd version. The human version would be a blast as well. It's a great build to dump a Carnifex on and then go to town. And if you play the WF'd version then you get one of the best low-level pieces of armor in the game - an item that really shines until level 11 or 12 at least (maybe even longer) in the Blademark's Docent. The durability that adds to pretty much any WF'd build is astounding.

[TennesseeVolunteer]

This is pretty much one of the best builds of any class I've ever seen. I had a Barbarian for awhile, to about level 10, followed Shades advice and did very well as a Semi-Perma-Raged Barbarian.

My Bard, following this build has been easier to solo with than my Barbarian up to level 8 so far. Add in the UMD and Healing Wands / Scrolls, making this a monster of a Build in every way.

Absolutely amazing.

[starflight]

How does greater heroism stack with good hope, or does it?

[Anthios888]

How does greater heroism stack with good hope, or does it?

Greater heroism gives +4 morale bonus to-hit, saves, and skills.

Good hope gives +2 morale bonus (same type, non stacking) to hit, saves, and skills. However, it also gives +2 damage, and is a mass buff.

Good hope is exactly like heroism with +2 damage attached.

The damage does not stack with your other bard songs. However, since it is a long spell, it is very handy for any time when the party may split up and not have the benefits of your bard song once it wears off. It also gives you a visual reminder of when your song ends. Another use is to hit someone that has died and for whom you do not have time to sing. And finally, it's an awesome leveling spell until you get greater heroism.

For many quests, casting GH on people is redundant unless they need skills or fear immunity. Packing good hope gives you a quick alternative.

[PastryDDO]

Got a small newb question for this build :-) well Bards in genral.

What allignment should I pick?? I am thinking lawful good for the pure good weapons at lower lvls as my UMD won't be good enough till higher lvls.

Also I am most likely picking the warforged route :-)

[BoBoDaClown]

Got a small newb question for this build :-) well Bards in genral.

What allignment should I pick?? I am thinking lawful good for the pure good weapons at lower lvls as my UMD won't be good enough till higher lvls.

Also I am most likely picking the warforged route :-)

Bards are locked out of Lawful.

True Neutral allows for litany (but that's some time away from where you're at).

You'll be able to use good weapons anyway due to your UMD.

[PastryDDO]

Okay question more :-)

Being a warforged does my long list of immunities make up for my very low AC compared to say a human in a mithril +2 breastplate? I only get +2 natural ac and well that is actualy +1 with dex 8 so only ac 11 even with a +3 docent that is only 14 not realy much.

anyways just curious about this part as at my currently lvl of 4 and 2 ranks I take a lot of hits with no DR or ac makes me use alot of sp on heals.

just seems I get hit a whole lot, then again maybe I am wrong in assuming this char can solo well?

[Anthios888]

anyways just curious about this part as at my currently lvl of 4 and 2 ranks I take a lot of hits with no DR or ac makes me use alot of sp on heals.

I replied to this in PM, but I thought I would reply here also for anyone else who had the question.

This is one of the chronic issues of playing a bard, especially playing it for the first time. I can gives you a few tips:

1: Being a human wouldn't make a lot of difference... most bards have this problem unless they choose to take measures to boost their armor class.

2: To make levels 1-6 smoother, try getting your AC up a little. Haste, barkskin & shield of faith all come on potions. Light mithral shields have 0 arcane spell failure. While you'll mostly use 2-handed weapons at high levels, it's OK to sword 'n board it until you get some better spells to keep you alive. Of course, a +3/4 docent helps too.

3: It does get better later. For now, blur should help a bit. Displacement gives you a 50% miss chance, and Haste helps you be very mobile to avoid getting surrounded and ganked by lots of monsters. At level 3, you can UMD scrolls of displacement and haste if you are so inclined (found in the magic shop in House P, or the portable hole). A bard can also UMD stoneskin wands for additional DR starting at level 7.

4: At all levels, of course, think about strategy. If you're soloing a really tough dungeon, round up a bunch of monsters using fascinate and take them at a pace you can handle. If you have not yet gotten the hang of fascinate, here's how it works. The fascinate goes off when the song ends, so you can start singing as you are running into the fight, gather everything up, and finish your song right as they are all coming close. This tactic takes a bit of practice, but helps you take as minimal fire as possible.

5: Those axeblock bracers from Korthos go further than you'd think. And, warforged does get access to DR enhancements that are very helpful at low levels.

6: Use resist energy potions to keep those lightning bolts, acid arrows, fireballs, etc. to a manageable level. No evasion and low reflex might be as big a cause of your damage as the low AC at this point.


Hope this helps you get through the growing pains!

[unbongwah]

What allignment should I pick??

I would go with either True Neutral or Chaotic Good. CG would let you use both Chaotic- and Good-aligned weapons at low lvls when your UMD is <20, but makes you vulnerable to Unholy dmg and you can't use Evil-tainted items without incurring a negative level. TN lets you benefit from Stability items, equip Evil-tainted items w/out neg lvl, and renders you immune to Unholy dmg. [If there are any mobs which do Anarchic or Axiomatic dmg, you'll be immune to that as well.] If you're willing to pay for an alignment change, start out CG then switch to TN once your UMD hits 20; otherwise I would go TN.

just seems I get hit a whole lot, then again maybe I am wrong in assuming this char can solo well?

Bards rarely hit meaningful levels of AC. TWF bards start out with decent AC but quickly lag behind; while THF bards pretty much have crappy AC their entire lives. You end up relying on Blur & Displacement, DR (if any), heals, Fascinate, and aggro mgmt to survive fights.

[PastryDDO]

thank you both for the replies :-)