The Classic Rocker [20 Bard Warchanter]

[fervidsea]

Good day. First and foremost, GREAT GUIDE!

I recently started a new bard using The Classic Rocker as my guide, however I choose Dwarf primarily for the extra HPs.

I have no "end-game" experience with Bards, but I see some posts in the forums talking about the + to hit and other changes that their melee Bards kinda feel "left out" so to say. Does any of the new changes greatly effect this build? Whats your thoughts or changes that you will be making to improve upon it? What ideas do you have in mind for your destiny?

Lastly for gear. While leveling, is there anything I should be keeping an eye out for, besides the standard Bloodstone, Spectral gloves etc.?

In addition, does anyone have a pre Epic, new 20, gear layout? It will be awhile till stuff gets acquired, but would like to have a solid base.

Thanks for your time.

[maddmatt70]

It seems like bards should go somewhere else to be honest. Not to be a negative nancy, but if you want to keep updating this build should be something different at least on epic elite. My cc/healing spellsinging magistrate bard is pretty effective. Since you like to melee though consider a two weapon fighting edge wielding charisma based bard fatesinger with magistrate twists and bard and wiz past lives.

This build has too low to hit and too low hit points and the damage is substandard. I suppose you could start with an 18 con and have a 16-18 strength leave power attack off and wield an epic SOS, but really yet another fighter or barbarian in group is better.

[Qnevven]

It seems like bards should go somewhere else to be honest. Not to be a negative nancy, but if you want to keep updating this build should be something different at least on epic elite. My cc/healing spellsinging magistrate bard is pretty effective. Since you like to melee though consider a two weapon fighting edge wielding charisma based bard fatesinger with magistrate twists and bard and wiz past lives.

This build has too low to hit and too low hit points and the damage is substandard. I suppose you could start with an 18 con and have a 16-18 strength leave power attack off and wield an epic SOS, but really yet another fighter or barbarian in group is better.

Too low to hit? If you compare my buffed to hit with a fighter/ranger/paladine (without bard song buffs) you'll see that it's better even though i took some splashes and dont have maxed bab...
Low on hit points? You're wrong again - my warchanter gets 554hp just by shipbuffs and rage spell - with potential for 619hp max while on yugo and with 1 item swap... (and that's on +2 con tom)
I've pugged a lot in my life and that HP is better or equal to 90% of builds that think of themselves as DPS toons


And obviously you havn't seen any of the Roq's warchanters in action since you claim her builds are ineffective.

[Anthios888]

OK, Matt, I'll bite!

This build has too low to hit

That's weird, because the 32 point build Classic Rocker on my account is literally the highest to-hit character I have. At level 20 it had 42 STR, epic sword of shadow, and wore destruction armor to help the party. Always having a maxed out inspire courage is a big deal. Bards also have the advantage of divine power scrolls for full BAB, and Fatesinger also gives pretty generous to-hit bonuses.

How else is it going to get higher? +2 from 6 levels of fighter and Kensei I? That drops the level 20 +1 to hit from the song (which buffs the party as well as you,) radically changes the bard "feel" of the character, and dumps healing ability. I like heavy melee bard splashes but don't feel that belongs on this archetype bard build.

too low hit points

Um, I had 547 (before +40 from yugoloth) at level 20 on my 32 point build with only a +2 con tome and several other places for improvement. No offense, but your bards all have 50-150 fewer hit points, so I'm just not sure what you think I'm suggesting wrong here. My more melee-focused pure bard (Roq Star) had over 580 without a yugoloth potion at level 20. I'll feel bad about meleeing when the other 600 HP melees feel bad about meleeing.

My cc/healing spellsinging magistrate bard is pretty effective.

Glad you're having fun and grats on finally capping Hangover. This seems pretty unrelated to this warchanter build, because Classic Rocker has never had any spell DCs to speak of outside of fascinate. I also think that high DC bard builds are awesome. (I have played one [I'm pretty sure you trashed it.] and run with one almost constantly).

Your "1 Way" attitude is really hard to grasp. There is room for both melee and crowd controlling pure bards, especially when it comes to players first experiencing endgame. My goal is to help people pick one direction and not make a build that is totally inept at both, like so many are.

You and I both know that bards still have the same terrible spell list (hold monster + dancing ball for the lose). I'm a tactical epic player and I love them when these spells work. But I bet you that healing and melee is always going to come in handy, no matter what the quest. Your CHA spellsinger is also bad at getting things done by themselves, and are more difficult to solo. You have to remember that many of the people looking to this build want something very versatile, but not a master-of-none.

Since you like to melee though consider a two weapon fighting edge wielding charisma based bard fatesinger with magistrate twists and bard and wiz past lives.

It's sooo gimped to build a character around Elyd Edge. Talk about a master of none. Maybe I could reach the benchmark points with nine or ten past lives. But I'm not putting this out there for the "archetype healing warchanter" build, because that has such potential for uselessness.

epic elite

Huh? Stuff's too hard to hit so you want to drop the bard and bring another fighter? I've run a lot of epic elite, and the level of drastic gamechanging encounters seem grossly overexaggerated on these forums. To-hit is an important stat but not nearly as bad as prophesied by the doomsayers. It's as before, but harder. I'm never going to tell a bard to switch to his fighter.

If anything, the spell penetration and higher DCs would bar a huge percentage of crowd control spellsingers out there, in favor of fascinating. I'm surprised you're this happy with Hangover with only +2 Spell Pen from past lives, no spell penetration feats, and super low hit points. My 9th life level 25 favored soul barely cuts through blue shields in the Demonweb. But I know that there are many ways to get these epic elites done, and I don't doubt that you're successful!

I sure hope that you're right and we can continue building for epic elite. I know most of my server is happy with epic normal and epic hard.

I've ditched a lot of builds that became obsolete. This one -- specifically the half orc -- remains a way for new players to fall in love with bards just as you and I did. +1 rep to you for continuing to advocate on these forums for effective bard builds, even if in this case our experiences do not line up.

[Anthios888]

As requested by others, I updated with some stuff about bard epic destinies, fatesinger, and twists.

I still recommend H-Orc inspire excellence/epic toughness for the basic two-handed bard (it's +13 damage per swing), but human with 400 more SP or cleaving overwhelming critical or greater two handed fighting should be fine, too.

New with bards in Menace:

1. As always, fascinate is uber in unfamiliar quests. If you didn't already, carry a perform item swap for when you are using it.
2. Healing and spell power. Healing is fine, but come prepared.

• Add devotion to your static gear. It will boost cure spells and heal scrolls.
• Use Greater Ardor potions from House P, for 20 additional spell power

3. Songs. Inspire Heroics now gives 4% dodge bonus on top of the 4 stacking AC. If you don't have one already, pick up an epic Elyd Edge from the House D epics to make this single-target song into a party-wide buff.
4. Inspire Excellence. A great epic feat that lets you sing to give +4 exceptional bonus to any stat to your whole party. That's +4 con for hit points on everyone, +4 str for hit/damage, or maybe +4 cha, int, or wisdom for DCs. A must-have. Note that it does nto stack with execptional +1 bonuses on epic items or Tower rings.\
5. Epic Toughness. If you can hit 21 CON with your base plus your tome, you might consider picking up Epic Toughness for 50 extra HP.

[voodoogroves]

I'm never going to tell a bard to switch to his fighter.

This is a server culture thing. I <3 G-land for that.


I *DO* wish bards were in a bit of a better place right now. I'm waiting for the enhancement pass, personally.

[maddmatt70]

OK, Matt, I'll bite!



That's weird, because the 32 point build Classic Rocker on my account is literally the highest to-hit character I have. At level 20 it had 42 STR, epic sword of shadow, and wore destruction armor to help the party. Always having a maxed out inspire courage is a big deal. Bards also have the advantage of divine power scrolls for full BAB, and Fatesinger also gives pretty generous to-hit bonuses.

How else is it going to get higher? +2 from 6 levels of fighter and Kensei I? That drops the level 20 +1 to hit from the song (which buffs the party as well as you,) radically changes the bard "feel" of the character, and dumps healing ability. I like heavy melee bard splashes but don't feel that belongs on this archetype bard build.

A barbarian or fighter with an epic sos has a higher to hit. Two weapon fighting melee often have higher to hit. Many classes like rogues can use divine power scrolls. I am not suggesting a deeper multi-class, but more a general opinion that bards are not that great which I hope gets remedied by the enhancement pass. Bards can still heal sure, but it is more complex and difficult for them from a destiny standpoint at least until they twist exalted angel or if they make choices in the fatesinger desinty which affects their dps.

Um, I had 547 (before +40 from yugoloth) at level 20 on my 32 point build with only a +2 con tome and several other places for improvement. No offense, but your bards all have 50-150 fewer hit points, so I'm just not sure what you think I'm suggesting wrong here. My more melee-focused pure bard (Roq Star) had over 580 without a yugoloth potion at level 20. I'll feel bad about meleeing when the other 600 HP melees feel bad about meleeing.

I am not a fan of non evasion less then 700 hit point characters these days much less characters with evasion that have 650ish hit points. The new update seems particularly unforgiving for smaller hit point characters i.e. advantage to barbarians and fighters right now heck the fighters and barbarians I ran with the last few days had 800 to 1150 hit points. My bard rabidly is defensively not horrible, with 575ish hp with yugoloth pot and evasion at level 20, but nothing really to write home about. Hangover stays well away from the fighting so less of a concern for her, but yeah rabiez is what have yeah.

Glad you're having fun and grats on finally capping Hangover. This seems pretty unrelated to this warchanter build, because Classic Rocker has never had any spell DCs to speak of outside of fascinate. I also think that high DC bard builds are awesome. (I have played one [I'm pretty sure you trashed it.] and run with one almost constantly).

Your "1 Way" attitude is really hard to grasp. There is room for both melee and crowd controlling pure bards, especially when it comes to players first experiencing endgame. My goal is to help people pick one direction and not make a build that is totally inept at both, like so many are.

The game ebbs and flows. Right now bards overall are not so great although I think there is a place for cc/healing bards. I watched one of my guildies do an elite epic von5 on his bard and it seemed like he was relegated to buffbot on a melee oriented bard which is not what the build intended to do.

You and I both know that bards still have the same terrible spell list (hold monster + dancing ball for the lose). I'm a tactical epic player and I love them when these spells work. But I bet you that healing and melee is always going to come in handy, no matter what the quest. Your CHA spellsinger is also bad at getting things done by themselves, and are more difficult to solo. You have to remember that many of the people looking to this build want something very versatile, but not a master-of-none.

It's sooo gimped to build a character around Elyd Edge. Talk about a master of none. Maybe I could reach the benchmark points with nine or ten past lives. But I'm not putting this out there for the "archetype healing warchanter" build, because that has such potential for uselessness.

Well if you want to throw an esos instead of an edge on such a character so be it, but the fact is I can manage the cc with the tools that bards have maybe not as a good as a wizard but manage it nevertheless and provides some songs including vigor so not horrible.

Huh? Stuff's too hard to hit so you want to drop the bard and bring another fighter? I've run a lot
of epic elite, and the level of drastic gamechanging encounters seem grossly overexaggerated on these forums. To-hit is an important stat but not nearly as bad as prophesied by the doomsayers. It's as before, but harder. I'm never going to tell a bard to switch to his fighter.

You convienently neglected to mention not just the to hit but the MASSIVE difference in dps that bards provide vs another fighter. It really is no contest. Fighters and barbarians add so much more right now then one bard. Try running around in a party comprised mostly of barbarians and fighters without a bard and then come back here and post again. One of my guildies was running his rogue alot but I see him playing his barbarian now mostly because he feels and sees the same thing.

If anything, the spell penetration and higher DCs would bar a huge percentage of crowd control spellsingers out there, in favor of fascinating. I'm surprised you're this happy with Hangover with only +2 Spell Pen from past lives, no spell penetration feats, and super low hit points. My 9th life level 25 favored soul barely cuts through blue shields in the Demonweb. But I know that there are many ways to get these epic elites done, and I don't doubt that you're successful!

It is not as simple as a cc bard has to do a variety of things. I have fascinate, greater shout, glitterdust for some of those. On some of the mobs that cc is very difficult it is nice to have an artificer kiter type player, but a bard can do it need be with quickened self heals aoe aggro and kite around. Wizards have the same issues by the way.

I sure hope that you're right and we can continue building for epic elite. I know most of my server is happy with epic normal and epic hard.

I've ditched a lot of builds that became obsolete. This one -- specifically the half orc -- remains a way for new players to fall in love with bards just as you and I did. +1 rep to you for continuing to advocate on these forums for effective bard builds, even if in this case our experiences do not line up.

A suggestion would be to comment on the build's difference in epic normal, epic hard, and epic elite. The reality is any build can succeed in epic normal and the same goes for epic hard. Epic hard should be likely made more difficult by the devs but that is another coversation. I think your like me though and make builds for epic elite. A build that does not do much dps, does not have great to-hit, does not provide much utility (bards provide less and less these days and this build can not do much cc), does not have great surviveability, etc is well you know how that goes.

What can be made better well obviously epic toughness is pretty mandatory I think for bards that want to melee so respec for 18 con with +3 tome and make the leap and respec and also pick up greater two handed fighting and maybe look at some destiny perhaps not even fatesinger/twists that can upgrade your personal dps and to hit or change to another class with the fatesinger destiny as an alternative. We can always wait until the enhancement pass with our melee bards which for me might be what I do with rabidly and possible rabiez.

[maddmatt70]

I'm never going to tell a bard to switch to his fighter.

Neither do I. Believe me I am not anything like Shade in the real game. I have completed many many quests and raids with every party combination conceiveable often against the grain of established wisdom and perhaps am even known on my server as a player/party leader for this quality. This however should not be confused with one type of character being less effective then another.

[fervidsea]

Nice discussion. I feel better about my Warchanter... but thinking I made a bad choice of Dwarf vs H-Orc. Well there is always a TR I'm not turning around now.

And I reviewed the original post again, and again and it has a pretty good, although not fast, but good gear list already. Unless someone has better ideas.

Thanks again

[Dukhat]

Sorry for a newb question but this is my first time playing through this game and first build. Are the enhancements listed the only ones you take as you go. I recently started playing and am at half rank through level 4. As I look down the enhancement list none of the ones available to me are on the list. I looked ahead at all of the unavailable ones and the ones on the list all had prerequisite points spent higher than I have so waiting for next level won't open them up for me.

EDIT: NM I found it in the middle of this thread. Carry on.

[fervidsea]

Well, I went with Dwarf, and I loved the journey, I now have a capped (lvl20) Classic Rocker! Thanks again, now its time to start getting the gear...

[axel15810]

Well, I went with Dwarf, and I loved the journey, I now have a capped (lvl20) Classic Rocker! Thanks again, now its time to start getting the gear...

I went with dwarf as well on this build because I don't own horc and don't wanna buy it. Gotta say horc is a better choice DPS wise but dwarf is almost as good in the DPS department while being more survivable.

[NovaNZ]

GO THE DWARFS

ps - great discussion Anthios and Matt - appreciated.