The person makes a Good Player, not always the toon.

[Seager52]

Like the title says, I believe that the true potential of a character is the person playing it.

Now granted if you got an even split of cleric/sorc/wizard and 8 con then it really doesn’t matter who is playing it, it is destined to fail, lol. But that’s not what I’m talking about here; it’s mostly the whole clerics/FvS melees as well as rouges, monks and rouges being DPS or anything like that. I fully support going away from the cookie cutter builds and trying some different things out, as long as it works then all power to ya.

Now don’t get me wrong, I have a Dwarven Fighter Dual Kopesh kensia (Jayrixx) and no other toon I have comes close to the damage that he puts out, however you can’t have a whole party of those and succeed without support. On the other hand I do have a dual scimitar Favored Soul that does pretty decent DPS and can heal at the same time, and she is alot of fun to play.

Here is where we get to the play style and the experience of some of us founding geeks. I am a big supporter of have a big major DPS toon in the party weather a fighter or barbarian. Now to go along with that huge DPS center piece let’s say we got my Melee FvS and a Melee Bard (Falcion all the way baby). Now that’s a great party just with those 3. I don’t try and out DPS the barb (thou if he’s not well equipped it happens…sad but true) on my FvS, nor does the Bard, but the Bard will displace the Barbarian and the FvS is doing DPS the whole time when not throwing the heals. So let’s add 3 more melees…as long as they have some HP and with mass heals and displace on the guy holding most agro we have a whole party of 6 people beating on the mobs. I dont care who you are, no one does so much damage that a few extra people hitting mobs is useless. This is a Seager party now, hehe.

So what’s the big deal with having the FvS and Bard beating on some shavarath scum…nothing. The problem comes when the person playing the support toon doesn’t know when to back up and support, or doesn’t know how to use all the tools in his kit bag like displace, stoneskin, etc.

At the end of the day it all revolves around team work and completing the mission. If you have the ability to heal and aren’t healing others then you are not being a team player and you shouldn’t be in the party, honestly. **** I can heal on my ranger (hitting my cure serious about 110-150 and have a good mana pool) and I have stepped back and healed when the cleric went down or whatever. The reason I did this is not because I felt it was my job, it’s because if we fail I don’t get anything out of it.

Now I can agree with some healers in the since that people shouldn’t feel like you are supposed to be their personal heal-bot. No one likes to be under appreciated and bust a nut trying to keep a party alive and then get wrote off like it was their job. Even if it is their job, like Epic Dragon, throw those healers a thank you ever now and then, a few words can go along way….so can mana pots, hehe.

So that is my two cents on the subject. And in summary, if you play your toons with team work in mind you will be an asset to the party. If you play your toon only looking out for yourself…well get used to it because you are probably going to be spending most your time soloing.

This is my opinion and I am in no way am trying to tell people how to play the game, it just works for me.

The Seager has spoken.

[Yaga_Nub]

FvS are not support toons.

Just my opinion.

[gwlech]

Now see, alot of the time, the melee characters act as "support" by requiring buffs and heals to keep going. A good Sorc/Wiz/FvS/Cler in general doesn't really need anything from anyone else. Everyone else is just icing on the cake.

Rarely is a melee critical to the success of any quest.

[Seager52]

Well I will disagree with the Melee not being needed when it comes to epic content. Esspecially while on my Healing speced FvS I will not join an Epic Dragon unless there are a few high end Fighters or Barbarians just because it all about how much DPS is put out to take her down. The less DPS the longer I have to heal and possibly use more resources than the run is worth.

In most non-raid and even some easier raids its not super needed. Shoot my Melee FvS usually just solos most quests because its easier than dealing with a party.

As for FvS not being support I kinda disagree. Anyone that can support others is a support class, just because someone playing a FvS doesnt support anyone else doesnt mean that they cannot. Thats my opinion. Though on the other hand I do give the class credit (remember i play a couple myself) that it is a very fun and not bad DPS if made right, could definatly be a front line fighter.

[Chai]

I think its funny that people think I need to play my class solely by their definitions of what that class is. Want to play a FVS as a support only toon? Roll one up heh. I dont run like a headless chicken and cry for the melee to pry mobs off me. I have a crowbar shaped like a greatsword I use for that purpose.

It sucks that the rest of MMOs use a class + spec = role structure, but this is not so in DnD and by proxy, DDO. I am truely sorry if WOW and EQ weened the entire MMO game populace into rigid class roles...wait, no I'm not sorry. I just tell em to get off my lawn.

I think the OP is correct in saying its the player and not the toon makes the character. I have grouped with awesome battle clerics and fighting bards, as well as heal bots and CC / buff bards, at all levels of the game including epic content.

[MrStinky]

Like the title says, I believe that the true potential of a character is the person playing it.

I am a big supporter of have a big major DPS toon in the party weather a fighter or barbarian.

The Seager has spoken.

OK this thread might have more weight if Rogues were mentioned here.

[Seager52]

Well I mostly wasnt mentioning them do to that sentance was to lead into to having the "Major DPS" being an agro holder. Wear as Rouges can be good DPS (But very challenging to make one DPS and Survivable) they would be not ideal for this position due to a very large portion of their damage is from sneak attack.

However, rouges do make ideal addition melee along side a larger DPS agro holder because of their extra damage from sneak attack.

I dont not play a rouge myself as i do not see it as an asset to my toon selection considering my personal style of play and preferance, however it can be a viable asset to a party if played well, like any toon can be, as mentioned in my OP.

[Aussieee]

Well I mostly wasnt mentioning them do to that sentance was to lead into to having the "Major DPS" being an agro holder. Wear as Rouges can be good DPS (But very challenging to make one DPS and Survivable) they would be not ideal for this position due to a very large portion of their damage is from sneak attack.

However, rouges do make ideal addition melee along side a larger DPS agro holder because of their extra damage from sneak attack.

I dont not play a rouge myself as i do not see it as an asset to my toon selection considering my personal style of play and preferance, however it can be a viable asset to a party if played well, like any toon can be, as mentioned in my OP.

Quicktoe- he puts each melee in his pocket ad puts them to shame

[Strakeln]

Well I mostly wasnt mentioning them do to that sentance was to lead into to having the "Major DPS" being an agro holder. Wear as Rouges can be good DPS (But very challenging to make one DPS and Survivable) they would be not ideal for this position due to a very large portion of their damage is from sneak attack.

It sounds to me like you don't know what you're talking about.

It's not hard to make a rogue that does incredible DPS and is very survivable. However, it is also not difficult to make a gimped rogue.

Radiance rapiers really killed the "DPS-only-from-sneak" argument.

[Anthem]

The problem comes when the person playing the support toon doesn’t know when to back up and support, or doesn’t know how to use all the tools in his kit bag like displace, stoneskin, etc.

Mmm, reluctant agreement here, since "support" players are not the only ones who should know when to step back.

There are enough times when a rogue or a ranger or a monk is missing the AC or HP to be standing in the cleave radius of a particular fight, taking damage and sucking cleric time, attention and SP that could be better spent on cometfalls or other offense casting with only the tank(s) in toe-to-toe combat. They too should know when to step back for the good of the party.

Similarly, there are some evasion fights in which those same rogues, rangers and monks are essential to the front line fight, while it's the fighters or barbs this time who should think about what they can contribute from outside of the fire and reflex save range, or body-block/shield-block to avoid unnecessary damage so the cleric can focus on mitigating the necessary damage.

In short, I think most "support" class players do know when to step back for the good of the party, while the same cannot be said of most "front line" melee players. Many of whom think their sole responsibility is to swing steel no matter what the circumstance or how unsuited to the particular fight they may be.

[Mithran]

Despite Strakeln's post, I think this is a good response to:

. . .Clerics are healers not tanks. . .

I wouldn't have made it in the same way, but I don't disagree.

My Ranger buffs herself with everything but Haste and while she's not quite beefy enough to satisfy some healers in Epic runs while tanking, she's the most fun I've had with a character.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Well I mostly wasnt mentioning them do to that sentance was to lead into to having the "Major DPS" being an agro holder. Wear as Rogues can be great DPS (and not very challenging to make one DPS and Survivable)

Fixed that for ya.

My assassin rogue is really, really tough to bring down. I just need to play him more and quit stealin his gear for other chars, and I'd be set

[Lo_Pan]

Seager, Remind me to introduce you to my Rogue one day.....

[Oswald_Gobblesnot]

Is there a point when a healer shouldn't heal? What I mean is, I watch a rogue run forward like a barbarian, grab aggro and get two-shot because he doesn't have the AC to avoid getting hit and he doesn't have the HP to mitigate the damage from said hits. Honestly, what successful front-line melee has a CON score of 8-10? If a character doesn't have a high AC or high HP total, shouldn't the smart play be to allow that kind of character to obtain initial aggro before beating on the opposition? I asked such a person to try it in a quest and was told to shut it since they were going to play they wanted to. I was tempted to stop healing that person and probably should have, but I try to be a team player. I think in the next few weeks I'll be a little more selfish when it comes to things like this.

You might say that the player makes a difference, and I'll agree to that. But part of being successful is building a character that can be. Constitution shouldn't ever be neglected. What scares me is the number of new players running around with Constitution scores of 8 or 10 and not having any gear to supplement it. Add the Aussie factor (she's trying to get nightforged gorgets for people) of mid-levels not having mod or heavy fort and these characters become a huge drain on said healers.

While I'm on healing, I never before realized how badly equipped most low and mid-level characters could be. To see these players not carrying some of the most basic store-bought gear/potions just amazes me. Perhaps I need to open my own version of QwijyMart? I must have given away 1000 CSW pots to people over the past two days. I guess I take having plat to buy potions for granted. Still, I believe that everyone should have some healing potions, a few remove curse, lesser restoration and neutralize poison potions. It's funny that people assume that a favored soul would carry these spells as part of their complement of spells. Well maybe the healing spells, but the others, I really don't think so.

[Seager52]

Wow, you guys are making my point even though you are trying to make it a C0CK contest at the same time. The point is that just because some one is not a fighter and barbarian doesnt mean they shouldnt be meleeing. And its the player that determins how good a party member will be.

As for the rouge thing, I admit I didnt think about the Radiance thing, making it a decent option for everything not red named (Im assuming that radiance doesnt work on them...correct me if I am wrong). But guys seriously the entire reason for this post was that if you take a good player, they are going to get amazing results with whatever toon they play. I personnaly dont care about anyone's build (rouge or not) inparticular being that Im not focusing on this thread on how great someones toon is or not.

Strakeln is right though, I didnt know what I was talking about on the subject of rouges, being that I do not have one and didnt think of the radiance thing.

However, thank you for directing the point away from my original objective and turning it into a , 'my dad's rouge could beat your dad's rouge any day' type discussion.

I will make a note to be more careful to include rouges in my post any time I remotely memntion DPS. I merely forgot that the rouge community was so defencive about affirming their validity.

Special Note: Comparring the rouge communtiy to Quicktoe isnt fair, thats not a rouge its a migget Kopesh weilding demon thats hides behind a rouge icon to fool you all into thinking that he is weaker than he is. Packs with the devil arnt in the DDO store and thus available to everyone. lol

[TWDiggs1980]

[Belwaar]

Rarely is a melee critical to the success of any quest.

This is the most blatantly ignorant post I've ever read...wow.

[Slink]

This is the most blatantly ignorant post I've ever read...wow.

Just when you think you have seen it all.

[tango44]

I love em.. You don't really need any one specific class to get thru 90% of the quests in game. I know that for a fact.

When our guild rolls thru 6 man quests or raids...we roll with what we got. it's been said between us many times, the perfect party makeup for "this" quest is whatever we happen to bring.

I say that in regards to having to have casters and healers in party. More often than not, it's just as easy to dps the **** outta everything, stop and drink a pot, you know those healing potions you can get at the vendors in exchange for your hard earned gold...., and then carry on and fnish the quest.

I also know that what I'm talking about is considered special circumstances, as it's guild questing, we know each other well, play together regularly, etc, and it doesn't really seem to apply to general questing or pugging if you will.

My point is this, we play that way from communication. So don't wait on that tank, or healer or caster, and hold up your fun for 30 mins or an hour waiting for perfect party makeup as defined by you, talk it out, get a plan, grab some pots, and get after it. you'd be surprised at how much you can learn to handle without the perfect party.

And the only point I agree on in the original post, is the player make the toon, not the other way around. Off topic, maybe...rambling, perhaps. It's early wednesday..y no coffee yet, and i'm at work. rather be playing.

[Cyr]

This is the most blatantly ignorant post I've ever read...wow.

Yeah, it's pretty high on the list alright.