Metallica and my reasons why I feel they have lost their way.

[lord_of_rage]

You know what I found two of the most appaling changes to a metal band...Celtic Frost and Venom......***?!?!?!


Not only did they sellout....but they ruined their rep and made no money while doing it LOL

I want to say thank you for all the responses. They are exactly what I was hoping for. A spirited inteligent debate on one of my passions. So I have a few things to respond to.

Celtic Frost did lose it for awhile. Tom broke the band up because of it. Their short lived reunion and the Release of their last album was excellent. It reminded me of all the elements of Cletic Frost I loved. Then Tom and Martin Ain had more issues and Tom once again ended CF. The Trypiticon album is what the next CF album was going to be.

Venom honestly I liked Black Metal. I had a hard time following them after it to be honest.

Exodus. Exodus do not get the credit they deserve. If Bonded By Blood had been released in 83 like it was supposed to I have a feeling that the world would look upon Metallica in a different light. BBB was just as good if not better than Kill em All. Exodus were doing the same thing at roughly the same time in the same scene. Both Metallica and Exodus started in 81. But Exodus were actually from the Bay Area. Not LA like Metallica were. Metallica tend to get the credit because they became bigger faster. My question is do I want to rip it up in a pit to BBB era Exodus or Kill Em All era Metallica. To me Exodus's tunes always went better in the pit. Exodus's first 3 albums were just as influential and ground breaking as Metallica's first 3. But with Exodus they have returned and released soon to be 4 excellent slabs of modern thrash. Hmmm shall I mosh to War Is My Shepard, 44 Mag Opus, Bedlam 1-2-3,Tempo Of The Damned,and Raze or My Apocolypse or anything else off St Anger or Death Magnetic?

Zion as Ive said I can care less that Metallica have sold out. I care that the music they are putting out is **** and not worth my cash over other bands releasing better work.

Rav'n +1 brother. You should never have to warm up to an album. Though sometimes songs do grow on me.

Chai your comments are right on.

Cliff Burton Cliff was one of a kind. He was unique and truely helped Metallica elevate themselves. I agree with what others have said about he and Dave being the driving forces to get James where he went. Cliffs style was progressive and brilliant. Very few bassists match his raw talent. Though he and Steve DiGeorgio would have one hell of a battle royal. Id be front row for that.

Metallica fans these days are the ones exposed through the mainstream. Metallica are accessable. Alot of their newer stuff is more appealing to those who dont like heavier music. They dont want to go back to their earlier work its too heavy. Its also status. Being a Metallica fan is great to name drop in the midst of metalheads. Well up to the point that all you can name drop is Metallica, Slipknot,Slayer, Korn,Godsmack and Drowning Pool.. Metallica's peers dont have nearly as much accessable music to the mainstream. Old and New Metallica is like the difference between TSO and Savatage. 80% of TSO fans have no clue TSO is Savatage and that Savatage is a metal band. When you tell them this and show them older Sava they flip.Granted on the flip side almost all Savatage fans are TSO fans. Metallica fill a huge niche for these fans. To some they are a gateway into our realm.

Like WoW to DDO. *gasp* Boo Hiss. Mainstream and acessable to more difficult technical and challenging. IMO the difference of new and old Metallica, and Metallica vs Megath/Testamet/Overkill..........


Oh will say James Hetfield jamming Asthetics of Hate with MachineHead on that tour was pretty awesome.

[GeneralDiomedes]

I'll comment on a few of the things I disagree with so far.

I listen to albums several times before I even start to solidify my opinion. A seriously large portion of my favorite CDs are "growers". I suppose this is an artifact of the explosion of downloading - sometimes people act more like tourists on a tour bus watching buildings going by than explorers walking down the street, letting the city sink in. I still appreciate the album experience - get it home, crack open the cellophane, rip it to your computer, let the music permeate over the next few days. Granted, I do a lot research before hand - reading reviews, checking out myspace samples, but rarely is there an album I absolutely hate. By not giving an album a chance, you are just cheating yourself.

Secondly, metal doesn't have to be anything in particular. It doesn't have to be angry, it doesn't have to be fast, it doesn't even have to be heavy. It can be melancholic, epic, exuberant, murderous, cheesy, artsy, raucous, beautiful, violent or just a **** good time. Don't put metal in a box, as it's arguably the most versatile genre on the planet.

[Rav'n]

I'll comment on a few of the things I disagree with so far.

I listen to albums several times before I even start to solidify my opinion. A seriously large portion of my favorite CDs are "growers". I suppose this is an artifact of the explosion of downloading - sometimes people act more like tourists on a tour bus watching buildings going by than explorers walking down the street, letting the city sink in. I still appreciate the album experience - get it home, crack open the cellophane, rip it to your computer, let the music permeate over the next few days. Granted, I do a lot research before hand - reading reviews, checking out myspace samples, but rarely is there an album I absolutely hate. By not giving an album a chance, you are just cheating yourself.
I'm not saying give up on a Band because you didn't like an Album. Heck...if that were the Case, I'd have stopped listening to Queensryche with Hear in the Now Frontier (which I have...and still listen to from time to time). I'd have missed out on Tribe and Mind Crime II. I merely state that you shouldn't have to warm up to an Album from a Band you love to listen too.They might change directions ... but what you love about them should still be in the Music.

Secondly, metal doesn't have to be anything in particular. It doesn't have to be angry, it doesn't have to be fast, it doesn't even have to be heavy. It can be melancholic, epic, exuberant, murderous, cheesy, artsy, raucous, beautiful, violent or just a **** good time. Don't put metal in a box, as it's arguably the most versatile genre on the planet.
COMPLETELY Agree with you here!!

In red

[Aeneas]

I've never really understood the hatred for Load and Re-Load. I enjoyed both of those. To be honest the only album i can truly say i did not like, was St. Anger.

That said, I disagree with the point of view that music is only good if you like it immediately. The songs i like best from almost every metallica album are the ones that never see radio play and that didn't really catch my attention the first time through. For instance, on Load/Re-Load it was tracks like Mama Said, Fixxer, Ronnie, and Bad Seed that were the ones i found myself constantly skipping ahead to so i could avoid the more radio friendly and overplayed stuff that sounded so good the first couple times i listened.

[Chai]

Its too bad that Cliff Burton didnt go with Dave Mustaine to Megadeth. Instead he had to stick around, pick the Ace of Spades in a card draw off to see who gets to sleep in the top area of the tour bus where its most comfortable, and die in that god awful accident. All the people with the same ideals would have then been lumped together in both bands. Metallica could then be what they want, and so could Megadeth. It kind of turned out that way anyhow but Cliff and Dave writing songs together would have been raw power, as it was in the early 80s.

I know I know its a dream.

[Rav'n]

That said, I disagree with the point of view that music is only good if you like it immediately. The songs i like best from almost every metallica album are the ones that never see radio play and that didn't really catch my attention the first time through. For instance, on Load/Re-Load it was tracks like Mama Said, Fixxer, Ronnie, and Bad Seed that were the ones i found myself constantly skipping ahead to so i could avoid the more radio friendly and overplayed stuff that sounded so good the first couple times i listened.

Because a song doesn't make air play has no bearing on whether a song is good enough. The Band doesn't choose what goes to the Radio. Record exec's do that ****. More often than not, my favorite songs on an album are the ones that NEVER make it to the radio.

And there-in lies the Beauty of the Internet. We can sample new things from a Band without ever having to have Record Execs tell us what's good, or what we should listen to first. MySpace, Youtube...etc great places to find new music... and not have to sit thru the drivel that the Mega Bands put out once the hunger is gone.

[Chai]

And there-in lies the Beauty of the Internet. We can sample new things from a Band without ever having to have Record Execs tell us what's good, or what we should listen to first. MySpace, Youtube...etc great places to find new music... and not have to sit thru the drivel that the Mega Bands put out once the hunger is gone.

Better not let Lars Ulrich hear you say that. He might get so peeved and angst driven that he would start thrashing on his drum kit to time again.

Oh wait, maybe you should tell it to his face then.

Twice.

[lord_of_rage]

I've never really understood the hatred for Load and Re-Load. I enjoyed both of those. To be honest the only album i can truly say i did not like, was St. Anger.

That said, I disagree with the point of view that music is only good if you like it immediately. The songs i like best from almost every metallica album are the ones that never see radio play and that didn't really catch my attention the first time through. For instance, on Load/Re-Load it was tracks like Mama Said, Fixxer, Ronnie, and Bad Seed that were the ones i found myself constantly skipping ahead to so i could avoid the more radio friendly and overplayed stuff that sounded so good the first couple times i listened.

There were good tracks dont get me wrong. Load it was The Outlaw Torn, Bleading Me, and one or two others I forget the name of. Reload it was fixxer, where the wild things are, and devils dance. But to me the albums were subpar.

[lord_of_rage]

Here are some comparisons Of new Megadeth vs new Metallica and new Testament vs new Metallica. The tunes were picked as the first from each album that came to my head.

Megadeth The right to go insane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFzDf5H7p1A

Vs
Metallica My Apocolypse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQOgWkD9YCQ

Megadeth Headcrusher

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTMN6...eature=related

Vs
Metallica Cyanide


Testament Henchmen Ride

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_Yeto-3I0g

Vs

Metallica That was just your life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdMuE...next=1&index=8

Testament The Persecuted wont forget
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-rySnvAvmo

vs

Metallica Broken Beaten and Scarred.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7eRiAnZt24


Notice every Metallica tune is overly long and sports riffs lifted from past albums. Most of them sounding like stuff from Justice. If these get solid responses Ill throw a few more together.

Cheers.

[Rav'n]

Office day tomorrow... Think Dave is gonna help me get some work done!!

[lord_of_rage]

Office day tomorrow... Think Dave is gonna help me get some work done!!

Heck yes "Because you have nothing left to lose but your sanity and the right to go insane"

Let me know what you think of the comparisons and of the Mega and Testament tunes.

[lord_of_rage]

Metallica The Judas Kiss

Vs

Testament More than meets the eye

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09rHDabBQfA&feature=fvst

[Doomcrew]

Holy ****! I thought I was the only one who thought this way. I would trace Metallicas downfall back alittle farther. Justice is my favorite album of theirs, but I think once they made a music video it was all downhill. I enjoy One and it's video but it seems that was the entry into pop metal.

Compare the 80's Metallica and Megadeth and the proof becomes evident of Mustaine's influance.

Sorry haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but, I believe the downfall wasn't with the first
video, but rather the edited shortened version of One. This to me was the point of no return.

Cheers,

[Doomcrew]

Not surprising considering Sabbat created two of the greatest thrash albums in existence.

Also, you forgot Overkill's latest .. standout stuff from the resurgent eighties set.

Sabbat? you're kidding, right?

[Doomcrew]

I'll comment on a few of the things I disagree with so far.

I listen to albums several times before I even start to solidify my opinion. A seriously large portion of my favorite CDs are "growers". I suppose this is an artifact of the explosion of downloading - sometimes people act more like tourists on a tour bus watching buildings going by than explorers walking down the street, letting the city sink in. I still appreciate the album experience - get it home, crack open the cellophane, rip it to your computer, let the music permeate over the next few days. Granted, I do a lot research before hand - reading reviews, checking out myspace samples, but rarely is there an album I absolutely hate. By not giving an album a chance, you are just cheating yourself.

Secondly, metal doesn't have to be anything in particular. It doesn't have to be angry, it doesn't have to be fast, it doesn't even have to be heavy. It can be melancholic, epic, exuberant, murderous, cheesy, artsy, raucous, beautiful, violent or just a **** good time. Don't put metal in a box, as it's arguably the most versatile genre on the planet.

Interesting thought, I find that most albums that I like right off, ( like candy or chocolate )
I tend to grow away from. There's always exceptions, but the albums that challenge, and
might take a few listens usually become more. At least to me anyway.

Cheers

[Chai]

Notice every Metallica tune is overly long and sports riffs lifted from past albums. Most of them sounding like stuff from Justice. If these get solid responses Ill throw a few more together.

Cheers.

Yeap, even when they dont rely overtly on Cliff and Daves songwriting, which they have resorted to long after the fact, they still covertly rely on it, taking the tangible manifestation of that energy the group once had during those years and trying to recycle it into their current music. It sticks out like a sore thumb to just about anyone who was a die hard fan back in the days when they sneered in the faces of all the hairspray rockers and balladiers. Dave may have had his demons, but thats why they NEEDED him. Good hard raw energy music doesnt come out of people with normal lives.

Again I will say that if Cliff had left with Dave and became part of Megadeth, no one would have stood against them in songwriting capability. Anything that one of them wrote, the other came up with the metal equivalent of a counterpoint for, and this added to the raw energy of their music, and set them apart from everyone else. This is why they destroyed their peers in that era. Its even apparent in the albums neither one of them are present on, because alot of it was still their music, in one way shape or form.

This is also why I think its ironic that Lars blathers on and on against people who steal copyrighted music.

[lord_of_rage]

Yeap, even when they dont rely overtly on Cliff and Daves songwriting, which they have resorted to long after the fact, they still covertly rely on it, taking the tangible manifestation of that energy the group once had during those years and trying to recycle it into their current music. It sticks out like a sore thumb to just about anyone who was a die hard fan back in the days when they sneered in the faces of all the hairspray rockers and balladiers. Dave may have had his demons, but thats why they NEEDED him. Good hard raw energy music doesnt come out of people with normal lives.

Again I will say that if Cliff had left with Dave and became part of Megadeth, no one would have stood against them in songwriting capability. Anything that one of them wrote, the other came up with the metal equivalent of a counterpoint for, and this added to the raw energy of their music, and set them apart from everyone else. This is why they destroyed their peers in that era. Its even apparent in the albums neither one of them are present on, because alot of it was still their music, in one way shape or form.

This is also why I think its ironic that Lars blathers on and on against people who steal copyrighted music.

I completely agree. I'm happy that Dave has found his angry place again because there isnt a track on Endgame that I dont love. Cliff and Dave would have been insane in Megadeth. Though Elfson is a solid bass player. And these days Dave demands his bassists use a pick. Lars is Lars he is a horrible boring straight forward drummer with no ear for fills or rolls or anything to really enhance the song.

[Doomcrew]

I completely agree. I'm happy that Dave has found his angry place again because there isnt a track on Endgame that I dont love. Cliff and Dave would have been insane in Megadeth. Though Elfson is a solid bass player. And these days Dave demands his bassists use a pick. Lars is Lars he is a horrible boring straight forward drummer with no ear for fills or rolls or anything to really enhance the song.

Charlie Benante, Lars ...... who'd you take?

[lord_of_rage]

Charlie Benante, Lars ...... who'd you take?

Id have to go with Charlie to be honest.He actually writes and plays guitar. I also think he is a much better drummer and actually uses a double kick and doesnt sound sloppy even triggered up like Lars. But to be honest Id take Paul Bostaph if I had my choice of thrash drummers. The dude is a monster.