For all the new player Clerics are HEALERS not tanks....

[TWDiggs1980]

He read your OP just fine, your OP sucked and you had to clarify.

And having a L20 cleric doesn't prove you are a good cleric.

Never had any complaints when I play my cleric in fact get mostly kudos. Now how do I squelch you... lol

[Dragonhyde]

I feel you on the "bad" battle clerics(ie the one that refuses to heal themselves). Bad news is it is not just new players as there are plenty of vets that have bad playstyles.

My fave bad battlecleric was in STK before ftp. I was on a casting cleric build, there were 2 casters a rogue, a barb and another cleric. Cleric starts out with the normal battle cleric post in party of I am a battle cleric I do not heal and do not carry DV or DH. That was fine having met several of these types while playing bards, I go about buffing. The cleric died first fight because he really didnt heal not even himself!(my theory is if you can heal yourself then I will worry more about the players that can't when I have no access to mass healing. And If you charge into the room to aggro before the meelee be able to take a hit.)

Just remember do not make it a healbot vs battlecleric drama when it should just be a bad player rant. Just because they say they are a battle cleric does not mean they know how to play one.

[Ebuddy]

....On the purpose/focus of the build, your strength as a player, the abilities/knowledge of others in the party and the circumstances. I remember an ugly Von 3 run where the cleric DC-ed. This was a pretty good group and so we decided to press on. Lo and behold, I ended up being the main healer with my Pally. I went through a lot of wands, LOH and a rez or two (not to mention liberal use of the shrines) but it worked out just fine. Conversely, I did a Shroud with 3 FVs and 3 Clerics. 2 - rounder (almost 1) on part 4 and no deaths (except for the requisite travel to part 5). As far as I could tell, 2 of the FVS and 1 (maybe 2) of the clerics (2 of them were fighter/monk splashes) were doing about as much DPS as the melee.

Blanket statements like those of the OP (no disrespect intended) MAY be true in other games like WOW, but NOT DDO.

[Emili]

wrong
even battleclerics can achieve 1800-1900 sp which is more then enough to heal a party

Now that entirely depends on the party... and how the BC is feated and spec'd.

SP is not the only factor at all in an optimal casting build. Casting (healing included) relies on feating, enhancements and gear... lack of feat/enhancements/gear rips away the strength in the heals just as lack of feat/enhancements/gear weakens the dps/AC/Save of a melee. Balancing such a character is a fine line like walking a razor's edge - in tweaking it out.

I have asked many a time if certain relatively good BC's felt comfortable at healing something like a shroud... and received the answer "Yes" then when the party near wipes in part four before round one and the BC is complaining and that the DPS is lacking yet we're only 35 seconds into it - my reply to them is "No" I see decent DPS for this what is the issue is more than DPS is required and we underestimated our total resources.

Quite simply stated such raid set up as a ratio DPS/Healing output... we may have high DPS lessens the need to heal as often and we may have high healing lessen the DPS needed but when you have good DPS but low healing = stress or good healing low DPS = stress ... end game requires a decent understanding of what you have and what you may put out in respect to the outcome... There are plenty raids can be shortmanned with a decent healer with a good player at the keyboard - but those playing that healer know their party, they know what they're doing... and can judge the use of their mana bar (plus the output of a spell) to what the rest of the party is going to be able to dish out and take.

I was tempted to neg rep you for this post.. lol

I + the OP also ... Why? Well he provided some much needed entertainment (something missing here for some time) and I read between the lines and knew what he was really tellin' us.

....On the purpose/focus of the build, your strength as a player, the abilities/knowledge of others in the party and the circumstances. I remember an ugly Von 3 run where the cleric DC-ed. This was a pretty good group and so we decided to press on. Lo and behold, I ended up being the main healer with my Pally. I went through a lot of wands, LOH and a rez or two (not to mention liberal use of the shrines) but it worked out just fine. Conversely, I did a Shroud with 3 FVs and 3 Clerics. 2 - rounder (almost 1) on part 4 and no deaths (except for the requisite travel to part 5). As far as I could tell, 2 of the FVS and 1 (maybe 2) of the clerics (2 of them were fighter/monk splashes) were doing about as much DPS as the melee.

Blanket statements like those of the OP (no disrespect intended) MAY be true in other games like WOW, but NOT DDO.

Throughout the game you really do not need a "dedicated" healer ... yet that does not cover the entire game. I.E. I would not run an all barbarian ToD and expect a high rate of success. In end game raids you cannot deny the resource effectiveness of a good cleric/FvS/Bard built to take advantage of the game and played well makes a significant impact on the success of those quests.

[Tarnoc]

I wish that all the people on here flaming me for my thread would be honest with themselves and with others as well. Truly people when creating a party and looking for a healer are you looking for a tank. No I thought not. I'm not saying that they cant help in combat with either offensive spells which clerics get alot of nice ones or jumping in and doing some melee but when it comes down to it they are healers thats thier roll.





I live to troll so let the neg rep roll.

No the people looking for clerics are looking for a non support class to solo the quest for them.....fighters and barbs are support classes for clerics think right here clerics can solo the content barbs fighters and most others need clerics to heal them thus thier the ones who are only support for the cleric to be lazy and not have to solo it....

[praetor]

clerics and favored souls can fight. they just suck balls at it. if you take this whole "battle cleric" stuff seriously, have at it, but don't join my party, please. yes they are decent in DnD PnP. if you use PnP mechanics to justify DDO actions you are clearly an idiot, not just in the gaming sense, but as a person as a whole. at higher levels you will never see anyone waste the time and effort needed to create a gimped melee char when they could have put that energy into a much better character of a different class. i'm not saying that they can't survive, but instead of being a decent melee or decent healer, you will just suck at both. like i said earlier, if you don't mind sucking, that's your choice and i'm not going to tell you how to play. however, at higher level raids i always decline party join requests from cleric/fvs that multiclass melee - as do almost all high level players. ask anyone who has a 18/2 or 19/1, you will learn about the pain of trying to be good at two things and ending up sucking at both, and having it bear out with poor consequences when party leaders will always wait to find a pure healer over your gimpy trash.

[Visty]

Now that entirely depends on the party... and how the BC is feated and spec'd.

yes, it depends

so saying battleclerics cant heal properly is wrong

[Angel_Barchild]

So I have been playing my lowbie bard here recently and it seems that every other cleric I run across in a pug trys to tank. Clerics are a support class people not up front fighters. I know you probably thought hey a warpriest thats a pretty good build in pen and paper but in DDO they suck. Pen and paper D&D isn't the same your DM isn't throwing you up against most of the mobs your are going to face in DDO and if they are I would punch them in the face and pull my char.





Toons Crulax lvl20 Cleric, Lakanthia lvl13 Fighter, Erraka lvl5 Bard

**** Diggs, I was going to day something but you lit yourself on fire, worse than I ever could.* Well at least you're keeping the forums hopping.

*This is funny because if I remember correctly I have in real life, lit you on fire.

[Rasczak]

If played properly. Right there in your own thread wow. Most new players cant do it. Also I was playing my lowbie bard so nope don't need anyone to kiss my booboos but I can't keep the party up by myself wand whipping everyone because the cleric isn't paying attention and is hacking and slashing away.

because you not fast enough to remember your own original post let me put it here for you again

So I have been playing my lowbie bard here recently and it seems that every other cleric I run across in a pug trys to tank. Clerics are a support class people not up front fighters. I know you probably thought hey a warpriest thats a pretty good build in pen and paper but in DDO they suck. Pen and paper D&D isn't the same your DM isn't throwing you up against most of the mobs your are going to face in DDO and if they are I would punch them in the face and pull my char.

No clerics are not just support, intimi clerics are awesome, that would be frontline....no clerics are not support, battle clerics are frontline...warpriests suck in DDO? Really? How misinformed you are.

Now if you had said in your OP how clerics are EXPECTED by people to heal and since they are not healing they not fulfilling what the party leader accepted them for...that would be different. However this pointless post of yours in the OP about how cut n dried it is is very very naive and misinformed. So while players are still getting used to the game and the controls, they have been told how awesome a cleric is so they make one to start with....you instead try and post about how **** the idea is to start with? You are just as bad as them imo. You haven't asked them for a heal, or suggested they back off and heal, maybe suggest they try cc instead of bashing because the preset path they chose left them with 8 str....you offered no other advice except to stop making melee clerics because you think they rubbish.

They are in fact very far from rubbish. And I have loads of examples of clerics/fvs tanking in epic and raids while healing. Your advice is how rubbish they are and it is not true at all. The difference is some of us try explain the ideas behind builds to new players while others whine that the player is not doing what they want them to.

[Tarnoc]

Never had any complaints when I play my cleric in fact get mostly kudos. Now how do I squelch you... lol

yes i see your cleric needs to be a support class and stay back and heal.....funny though you gave yourself alot of strength and a GS axe....too low on hps and too low on mana IMO.....my drow cleric has 467 hps and can solo many things with her blades....see the real issue is that your bard was forced to heal instead of the cleric....BTW BARDS are nothing but a support class....

[Slink]

*This is funny because if I remember correctly I have in real life, lit you on fire.

SS or it didnt happen!

[voodoogroves]

clerics and favored souls can fight. they just suck balls at it. at higher levels you will never see anyone waste the time and effort needed to create a gimped melee char when they could have put that energy into a much better melee character of a different class. i'm not saying that they can't survive, but instead of being a decent melee or decent healer, they will just suck at both. at higher level raids i always decline party join requests from cleric/fvs that multiclass melee - as do most high level players. ask anyone who has a 18/2 or 19/1, you will learn about the pain of trying to be good at two things and ending up sucking at both.

You're assuming that the cleric/monk is done to melee so as to provide primary DPS ... in reality it provides more survivability (balance, evasion, better saves / AC), feats (toughness is common - yields more survivability) and probably more pivotal to those builds ... a WIS boost for higher DCs and it makes up some of the SP difference. The fact that it might be swinging some condition-applying weapon for those tight spaces is gravy ...

Don't assume dips are there to divide focus. That monk-cleric likely has the highest WIS in the game, the best DCs on their spells and is sturdy enough to take a few licks themselves while keeping the DPS guys alive.

[Angel_Barchild]

SS or it didnt happen!

I also stabbed him with a fork. He's still got the scar maybe he can post a pic. And before you bi^ch Diggs you were reaching for the last peace of french silk pie. You had it coming. Anything else you say about it is a lie!!

[Slink]

yes i see your cleric needs to be a support class and stay back and heal.....funny though you gave yourself alot of strength and a GS axe....too low on hps and too low on mana IMO.....my drow cleric has 467 hps and can solo many things with her blades....see the real issue is that your bard was forced to heal instead of the cleric....BTW BARDS are nothing but a support class....

Thats funny, coming from the guy that 'doesnt have any public characters'.
Put up or shut up.

[PopeJual]

So I have been playing my lowbie bard here recently and it seems that every other cleric I run across in a pug trys to tank. Clerics are a support class people not up front fighters. I know you probably thought hey a warpriest thats a pretty good build in pen and paper but in DDO they suck. Pen and paper D&D isn't the same your DM isn't throwing you up against most of the mobs your are going to face in DDO and if they are I would punch them in the face and pull my char.

I just want to give a shout out of support for the OP. Clerics and FvS can't take on big fights. That's why Clerics and FvS can't solo any quests harder than Kobold's New Ringleader.

(I'd also like to give a shout out to the FvS who soloed Sins of Attrition on Elite, clearing out ALL the trash on the way to the end fight and then let me and 4 other characters come in to pike on the final battle so that we could get the end loot and the Yugo favor.)

[Calebro]

Never had any complaints when I play my cleric in fact get mostly kudos. Now how do I squelch you... lol

I haven't run with your cleric, but since you conveniently listed your toons in your OP I can definitely tell you that your fighter is on my "friends" list. So while you may not have heard any complaints about your cleric, I can surely tell you that you have some complaints in general.
Namely from me.
To be honest I don't even remember why I put you on that list, but the name stands out and I'm sure you are.

[Slink]

I also stabbed him with a fork. He's still got the scar maybe he can post a pic. And before you bi^ch Diggs you were reaching for the last peace of french silk pie. You had it comeing. Anything else you say about it is a lie!!

+1 for fork stabbing!

[Slink]

I haven't run with your cleric, but since you conveniently listed your toons in your OP I can definitely tell you that your fighter is on my "friends" list. So while you may not have heard any complaints about your cleric, I can surely tell you that you have some complaints in general.
Namely from me.
To be honest I don't even remember why I put you on that list, but the name stands out and I'm sure you are.

Oh, come on!
The guy has been set on fire and stabbed with forks!
cut him some slack...

[TWDiggs1980]

+1 for fork stabbing!

Yes she did stab me with a fork and has lit me on fire multiple times if I remember correctly. It's all a lie I was reaching for my smokes which where near here pie. I might have made the comment yum french silk pie while reaching though.

[Angel_Barchild]

Oh, come on!
The guy has been set on fire and stabbed with forks!
cut him some slack...

He had it coming!! Well the stabbing anyway, the set on fire thing happened because I said I was going to light him on fire if he didn't move, and he just stood there. Sorry for the thredjack Diggs.