Two Handed Fighting w/Bastard Swords

[bobsobs]

Ive logged a lot of hours with DDO, but I'm still new in many areas.

What I'd like to do is build a character that is strong with two handed weapons. Someone with high dexterity but able to deliver a lot of damage. Fundamentally, the bastard sword does the highest one-handed damage, so using two of those seems tempting. Of course that would cost a proficiency feat and I'm really not familiar with the higher level weapons available or if any of them come in bastard sword form. I'm probably too green to know how to mutli-class properly, but what I'd really like to do is have a rogue that can 2-weapon fight very well. I like playing a toon that is nimble and quick.

That said, what's the best character for two handed fighting? I figure human might be the way to go if for no other reason than I'll be able to pick up the extra feat. Is Bastard Sword a waste of a feat? I have the "character planner" which I've been playing around with. If I wanted to consider a multi-class rogue that is strong with 2 weapon attacks, what kinds of builds should I be looking at?

Thanks for the help.

[splinterx]

Im not quite sure what your asking.
you mention two handed and then say that you want to use two bastard swords.

Two handed is when you have two hands on the weapon(i.e. a great sword) and two weapon is when you dual weild or have a weapon in each hand.

The best feats for either of these is their respective feat chain.

[Aurora1979]

Hiya,

Im a bit confused as to whether your thinking of the right thing. Two handed fighting is with 2 hander weapons, I.E the biggies. Great axe, great sword etc.

Bastard sword is, as you say, a 1 hander. So, you want to dual wield 2 bastard swords?

Ive just rolled a halfling fighter for exactly that. You really have 2 choices. Go ranger and get the two WEAPON fighting line for free. Or go fighter and pay for them but have more feats whilst leveling to spend on the 2WF line.

I went for fighter just because it will allow me to also take lots of other feats like the kensi set.

If you want to multi class rogue, can i ask what for? trapping, stealth attacks etc. You can splash either a fighter or a ranger but i would suggest going fighter, more feats, and you will get evasion from the rogue splash.

[Angelus_dead]

What I'd like to do is build a character that is strong with two handed weapons. Someone with high dexterity but able to deliver a lot of damage. Fundamentally, the bastard sword does the highest one-handed damage, so using two of those seems tempting.

1. There is a big difference between "two handed fighting" and "two weapon fighting". The first would be a greataxe and the second would be two battleaxes.

2. Bastard sword is not a high damage weapon. It might appear to be due to the 1d10 damage die, but base damage is actually less important than critical profile. One-handed weapons with superior critical power include khopesh, scimitar, rapier, kukri, heavy pick, and light pick.

2b. The bastard sword will soon be getting a damage bonus effect, but it will only apply if you're fighting with only one weapon at a time.

That said, what's the best character for two handed fighting? I figure human might be the way to go if for no other reason than I'll be able to pick up the extra feat. Is Bastard Sword a waste of a feat?

It is traditionally popular for humans to spend their extra feat on khopesh. Bastard Sword would indeed be a waste.

If I wanted to consider a multi-class rogue that is strong with 2 weapon attacks, what kinds of builds should I be looking at?

Probably should be rogue19/fig1 or rogue19/barb1. It can be strength with khopesh or finesse with rapiers... if you read around you can find out how to do it.

[Aurora1979]

1. There is a big difference between "two handed fighting" and "two weapon fighting". The first would be a greataxe and the second would be two battleaxes.

2. Bastard sword is not a high damage weapon. It might appear to be due to the 1d10 damage die, but base damage is actually less important than critical profile. One-handed weapons with superior critical power include khopesh, scimitar, rapier, kukri, heavy pick, and light pick.

2b. The bastard sword will soon be getting a damage bonus effect, but it will only apply if you're fighting with only one weapon at a time.


It is traditionally popular for humans to spend their extra feat on khopesh. Bastard Sword would indeed be a waste.


Probably should be rogue19/fig1 or rogue19/barb1. It can be strength with khopesh or finesse with rapiers... if you read around you can find out how to do it.

I just wana comment on this. While angelus is correct in what he says i do have a defense for the bastard sword user.

Yes you will take a drop in dps, but make no mistake you can still hit hard enough to kill things. Against 100% fortification carrying bosses its very close between the kopesh and the bastard sword. Most of the end game bosses have high fort.

Kopeshes cost 2-3 times more then comparative B.Swords.

If your going to spend a feat on an exotic weapon it costs the same no matter what you go for.

In summery. Yes the kopesh IS better all round, thats a fact. But the bastard sword is not GIMP, its just a little bit less. If we are really all going to use kopeshes just because they are slightly better then why not go the whole hog and all use 1 type of each class as is calculated as the "perfect" build. A slight drop in performance, whilst not inhibiting your play, is worth it IMO just to be a little different.

HOWEVER it should be noted i have a dual wielding kope ranger too

[Pithrin]

I just wana comment on this. While angelus is correct in what he says i do have a defense for the bastard sword user.

Yes you will take a drop in dps, but make no mistake you can still hit hard enough to kill things. Against 100% fortification carrying bosses its very close between the kopesh and the bastard sword. Most of the end game bosses have high fort.

Kopeshes cost 2-3 times more then comparative B.Swords.

If your going to spend a feat on an exotic weapon it costs the same no matter what you go for.

In summery. Yes the kopesh IS better all round, thats a fact. But the bastard sword is not GIMP, its just a little bit less. If we are really all going to use kopeshes just because they are slightly better then why not go the whole hog and all use 1 type of each class as is calculated as the "perfect" build. A slight drop in performance, whilst not inhibiting your play, is worth it IMO just to be a little different.

HOWEVER it should be noted i have a dual wielding kope ranger too

/agreed

I typically play healer/caster types. When I first came back to the game a couple months ago I took a monk to cap. Along the way, knowing that I wanted to build a TWF Rgr splash, I started to take a look at the khopesh and bastard swords that were dropping for me. Occasionally Fair Trades had something I thought I could make use of and rarely I could land an auction that didn't break my account. The result was that I was able to amass a great collection of bastard swords and only a handful of semi-decent khopesh by the time my monk capped.

As such, I now have a level 7 TWF (Tempest I) Human w/ BS feat that is leveling quickly and has every weapon waiting for her at the milestones. I like the look of the BS better and being different (especially when leveling) isn't such a horrid thing. I'm STILL collecting khopesh when I can and if/when she needs to ~ a simple feat swap will set her on another path after she makes her GS weapons.

Slash probably has the greatest variety but there are some nice pierce weapons as well. Know your build and plan for your endgame early, if you can, but understand that as long as you're having fun and leveling at your own pace you're doing okay. I still believe that the journey for each new character is always more enjoyable than the grind that capped characters have to suffer through.

[Creeper]

Ive logged a lot of hours with DDO, but I'm still new in many areas.

What I'd like to do is build a character that is strong with two handed weapons. Someone with high dexterity but able to deliver a lot of damage.

You better have high str if you wanna use bastard swords as they are not finessable (cept for sunblade). If you wanna have high dex on a rogue and deliver a lot of damage better go with rapiers, kukris, or light picks (finessable weapons). Kukris and light picks are martial weapons btw, but you get rapier feat for free as a rogue.

[greybucket]

My first char in DDO was an Exploiter Ranger. I was wielding dual +2 khopeshs (bought with TP) for the longest time cause I didn't have the plat for better ones. I switched to bastard swords for awhile because they were way cheaper on the AH and plentiful. I still did well with them. When I was able to get some plat saved up, and thanks to some guildies and some very nice forum members, I was able to get my hands on some very nice khopeshs I wouldn't have otherwise been able to get my hands on. At lvl8, I feat swapped back to khopeshs and haven't looked back since.

If this is one of your first chars, I say go bastard swords due to being cheap as compared to khops. A khopesh build seem to work out better for players who already have a high level char who can either buy them or farm them and have them waiting as the other char levels.

Good luck with bastard swords if that's the route you take. You won't be disappointed as long as you throw in Increased Critical Slashing Weapons.

[bobsobs]

Sorry guys, I meant fighting with two weapons.

That's quite an outpouring of good advice. Thank you! Let me ask a few follow up questions...

Bastard sword: 1-10, 19-20 x2
Khopesh: 1-8, 19-20 x3

If my intention is to be a quick and nimble fighter using two weapons, my guess would be that in combat with many monsters I'd better serve the group by attack multiple targets rather than focusing on the boss monster. That said, wouldn't it be better to consistently do more damage rather than to focus on doing an extra damage just 10% of the time? I really don't know. I guess it depends on how many hits it takes to kill your "average" monster? Using feats/enhancements to increase your chance of critical damage also plays a big roll, I suspect.

I like the high dexterity because I like the light armor and quickness and freedom from ac checks, but I'm not sure what use Weapon Finesse is because the weapons that qualify don't seem very interesting to me. Neither the Bsword or Khop qualifies for the "weapon finesse" feat, right?

The oversized weapon fighting feat is pretty much a must to get, right? There wouldn't be much argument for trying to play without it, right?

I like the idea of playing a character who's very quick. Tumble, jump, spring, etc. For that reason, rogue seems a good fit. I like all the other stuff rogues do too and I like playing that role in a larger party, but I realize I'll need to make some choices. It doesn't seem like I can get strong enough just with rogue to use two weapons effectively especially at higher levels. Is there a multi-class arugement to be made for starting as a fighter (or maybe ranger) but then quickly switching to rogue and staying with that until the end?

Let me add that I prefer slashing weapons, mostly because I just do. Likewise, I'd prefer to play elf, drow, or human. Also, I really haven't played enough to understand the negative effects of multi-classing. For example, what would I be giving being a multi-class rogue instead of a pure rogue? Finally, It was mentioned that Rangers start with Two Weapon Fighting as a given, but this doesn't appear to be correct. I'm not interested in primarily using ranged weapons or using magic, so it seems fighter is a better choice for me than ranger if I'm going to multi-class.

[Angelus_dead]

Bastard sword: 1-10, 19-20 x2
Khopesh: 1-8, 19-20 x3

You will use the Improved Critical feat to make it 17-20/x3.

If my intention is to be a quick and nimble fighter using two weapons, my guess would be that in combat with many monsters I'd better serve the group by attack multiple targets rather than focusing on the boss monster.

No, that would not really be better.

That said, wouldn't it be better to consistently do more damage rather than to focus on doing an extra damage just 10% of the time?

It would be better to do more damage, which means khopesh. The khopesh is behind bastard just a trivial amount of base damage, but far far ahead in critical power.

As I mentioned earlier, it's not even a competition between Khopesh and Bastard. If you didn't use Khopesh for some reason you'd turn next to Scimitar... Bastard is 6th or 10th down the list.

Neither the Bsword or Khop qualifies for the "weapon finesse" feat, right?

That is correct. Rapier, kukri, and light pick would be the better finesse weapons.

The oversized weapon fighting feat is pretty much a must to get, right?

It's alright, but not really needed.

I like the idea of playing a character who's very quick. Tumble, jump, spring, etc. For that reason, rogue seems a good fit.

Unfortunately, DDO does not support rogues as being quick. That is probably a mistake in the game design, but presently barbarians, rangers, monks, fighters, and paladins are all faster.

Is there a multi-class arugement to be made for starting as a fighter (or maybe ranger) but then quickly switching to rogue and staying with that until the end?

There is an enormously good argument for a rogue character to take one level of barbarian, fighter, monk, or ranger, although you would not want that as level 1 (probably level 3).

For example, what would I be giving being a multi-class rogue instead of a pure rogue?

A DDO character can only have 20 levels total, so every level you take in a different class is one less you can take in the prime class. However, rogue 20 is a notoriously bad level, so (at the current time) there's absolutely no reason for a rogue to not take one level of something else.

[bobsobs]

Thanks everyone. Advice was great. I'll keep checking here, but my plan is to study some more then post at the multi-class sub-forum for more help.

[Aurora1979]

[QUOTE=Angelus_dead;2961880]You will use the Improved Critical feat to make it 17-20/x3.


As you would do with B.Swords, or any other weapon.


It would be better to do more damage, which means khopesh. The khopesh is behind bastard just a trivial amount of base damage, but far far ahead in critical power.

It is ahead by 1 third on critical damage and by less of a margin against heavy fort monsters.

As I mentioned earlier, it's not even a competition between Khopesh and Bastard. If you didn't use Khopesh for some reason you'd turn next to Scimitar... Bastard is 6th or 10th down the list.

6th or 10th? Not sure about that.

That is correct. Rapier, kukri, and light pick would be the better finesse weapons.

You would only really go with Rapier surely? To go with kukri or light pick over rapier would be the same as using b.swords over kopes, and something your'e against.


It's alright, but not really needed.

Cant agree with this at all. If your going to dual wield two of the same weapons then OTWF is a must have feat.

QUOTE]

[Aurora1979]

Just a final point

Really, reading your post again, It sounds like you want neither B.swrds or kopesh. It sounds like you would be better suited getting your dex high, taking the finesse feat, TWF, OTWF and go dual rapiers. Rapiers are pierce weapons and while the build is still viable it would be argued against as being non optimal again.

The style above will do less damage then a str build and usually you would compensate that by taking rapiers that do stat damage. The devs somewhat "nerfed" stat damage so most people now would say going str based is more viable but a dex based dual wielder will still be fun.

You would wear light armour or robes to make the most of your dex based AC however be aware that you will need to work VERY hard to get your AC high enough to be viable at end game. Im not sure if its doable on a robe wearing melee, im sure it is but you would probably need to look at monk splash builds.

[bobsobs]

For the record, I'm willing to let the bastards go... no big deal. Seems like oversized 2WF might be a waste of a feat at higher levels. So, here are two basic paths I'm thinking about.

Feats: 2WF, finesse, pierce focus, critical power, improve critical power
Primary: Rapier (light, finesse) 1-8 +0 pierce, 18-20/x2 [base stats]
Off Short sword (light): 1-6 pierce, 19-20/x2 [base stats]

OR

Feats: 2WF, slash focus, critical power, improved critical power
Primary: Khop 1-8 +0 Slash, 19-20/x3 [base stats]
Off: handaxe (light) 1-6, 20/x3

BTW, what does it mean when some weapons are listed as +0 Slash (like the Khop) while other slash-type weapons don't show the +0 slash (like hand axe).

For backstabbing and general damage, I'll need high STR, right? If so, that makes Weapon finesse less attractive. On the other hand, I'd like to play with light armor and build for a high DEX.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

BTW, what does it mean when some weapons are listed as +0 Slash (like the Khop) while other slash-type weapons don't show the +0 slash (like hand axe).

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Where are you getting that from?

[William_the_Bat]

The "Improved Critical" feat is a winner, it increases how often you you have a critical hit chance, after which the game rolls a second attack, if the attack "hits", then the hit is confirmed, and upgraded to a critical hit.

The "Power Critical" feat is not a winner, because all it does is improve the attack bonus on the "confirming the critical" attack roll. It's still helpful, but generally your attack bonus will be high enough you will rarely miss anyway. It's a small benefit for using up a feat slot.

There are three main two-weapon fighting feats, and some more related feats. The three main ones are two-weapon fighting (gives you the ability to use an offhand weapon with minimal penalty) improved two-weapon fighting (more offhand attacks per cycle) and greater two-weapon fighting (still more attacks per cycle). These greatly enhance your combat power.

The Oversized feat is considered optional because it removes the penalty for using an oversized weapon (such as a rapier, scimitar, or khopesh) in the off-hand. Since that penalty is only 2 worse than the normal penalty for using two weapons at all, it's often considered optional because most melee characters hit most enemies most of the time with or without it.

Two weapon defense can be nice if you have an armor class based character that wants every point they can get. Most characters don't bother. AC is nice, but difficult to achieve. Go for it if it fits your character concept, but don't sacrifice offense for it.

Two weapon blocking is pretty much a dud. If you are gong to block, equip a shield first.

As far as going dex based, the weapon finesse feat makes your dex bonus rather than your str bonus add to your attack roll (assuming a finessable weapon). Since extra damage is still based on STR, you'll do less damage, but it's easier to crank up your dex for an ok armor class, assuming you can get the gear to support it. Of course, you can take a level of monk and the combat expertise feat to help that out.

A dex based rogue, on the other hand, does just fine damage with sneak attack, as long as the monster is focused on someone else. As soon as they draw aggro, the sneak attack damage goes away. A well played rogue can do a bit of skulking and try to fight only monsters that are already engaged by the big tank types in the party, and rack up a truly impressive kill count while not taking any damage. A not-so-well played rogue charges in, starts swinging, and never gets any sneak attacks, and gets beat down by the monster.

If you don't want to have to adjust your play style to skulking, try a ranger instead. They are also light armor users, get the evasion feat, have the tempest line for superior two-weapon-fighting, do not need huge dexterity for the two-weapon-fighting line (they get it for free) so can be strength based (albeit at the expense of AC) and use scimitars or khopeshes or whatever seems the most fun. You'll use up a lot of feats qualifying for tempest, but many of the highest damage-dealing builds are built around tempest I or tempest III.

[Angelus_dead]

As you would do with B.Swords, or any other weapon.

Wrong. Only a khopesh would become 17-20/x3 with Imp Crit.

It is ahead by 1 third on critical damage and by less of a margin against heavy fort monsters.

That is probably wrong, although to say "1 third on critical damage" does not appear to mean anything.

6th or 10th? Not sure about that.

Yes, I'm not sure because the position of Bastard depends on his race. If he's got possible race enhancements for axe, longsword, or shortsword then they're better than bastard.

To go with kukri or light pick over rapier would be the same as using b.swords over kopes, and something your'e against.

Wrong. A kukri or light pick would be a less popular choice, but they're in the same critical tier as rapier, so using them doesn't sacrifice a large amount of damage like picking bastard over khopesh would. The kukri is just -1 base damage average below rapier, which is much much less important than the -20% critical power a bastard suffers next to khopesh.

Cant agree with this at all. If your going to dual wield two of the same weapons then OTWF is a must have feat.

Incorrect.
1. Plenty of people use a non-small offhand weapon without OTWF.
2. The guy had not even firmly decided he would use a non-small offhand weapon.

[Angelus_dead]

Primary: Rapier (light, finesse) 1-8 +0 pierce, 18-20/x2 [base stats]
Off Short sword (light): 1-6 pierce, 19-20/x2 [base stats]

Kukri+kukri would be superior damage to rapier+shortsword, except that pure-class rogues don't have kukri proficiency (but that's one of the reasons it's so popular to take a level of fighter or barb)

Regardless, Weapon Focus feats are strongly discouraged on anything but a Fighter or Bard. A +1 on attack rolls just isn't important enough compared to other feats available. (Fighter or Bard can use Weapon Focus to qualify for damage boosts)

Feats: 2WF, slash focus, critical power, improved critical power
Primary: Khop 1-8 +0 Slash, 19-20/x3 [base stats]
Off: handaxe (light) 1-6, 20/x3

A kukri offhand would be superior to the handaxe, and has no downside.

For backstabbing and general damage, I'll need high STR, right? If so, that makes Weapon finesse less attractive. On the other hand, I'd like to play with light armor and build for a high DEX.

Yes, that's a choice you have to make depending on just what you have to work with and what you want to do.

[Creeper]

As you would do with B.Swords, or any other weapon.

/snip

Cant agree with this at all. If your going to dual wield two of the same weapons then OTWF is a must have feat.

You are very wrong here. I just wanted to point that out to any new people who don't know any better and may listen to what you are saying and get confused.

[Aurora1979]

You are very wrong here. I just wanted to point that out to any new people who don't know any better and may listen to what you are saying and get confused.

Im not at all wrong. You can swap the feat out at higher levels but until you are hitting on a 1 or a 2 then the penelty to hit fighting with two large one handed weapons is bad enough that it is worth taking the OTWF.

If you want to say im wrong, and then suggest im mis leading people then at least back it up. I might be, I dont know everything, however you need to explain why. Ive explained why i think its a worth while feat.