Need Advice on Bard "Build"

[BrinLondo]

First, I say bard "build" because I'm really not looking to see a template laid out 20 levels ahead of me. I personally don't see how they are of any help. Being told to take some enhancement that you have no idea what it does or what it is for at level "x" doesn't make much sense to me. To be honest, I also don't have the resources, time, or cash to ensure that my character will have a +2 tome for every skill at 7th level. (I can barely afford the +1s for a single skill).

That said, I'm trying out the bard class. Why? I like the idea of spells and my woeful attempt at a wizard taught me that I like a little melee here and there. I also don't mind healing, so I figured...try a bard.

I have veteran status (4 level) and have unlocked the 32 point build. I've chosen Drow as my race as I've heard they get a "bump" with CHA.

Stats:

STR: 10, DEX: 15, CON: 14, INT: 14, WIS: 10, CHA: 18.

I've "toyed" around with my enhancements, picked my spells, and I feel "gimped" already.

From little I know now, Bards have very select weapons. I don't see or feel I'm on track for finesse fighting and certainly my STR isn't going to do much for me.

In retrospect, I was thinking of starting with two levels of Rogue and then switching to Bard. Not sure how that hurts me. As for help: traps, THF, evasion.

Oh...what do I want to do with this guy (almost forgot that part!). I'm okay not being front line/melee fighter. I would like to be able to skirmish somewhat and not be a complete wimp. I'm okay with healing and tossing spells here and there.

Any advice would be appreciated. This won't be the best bard ever, it'll be a learning experience for me so I'm not looking for perfection. I do feel my stats are "wrong." They feel wrong. Please advise.

[ajprokos]

First, I say bard "build" because I'm really not looking to see a template laid out 20 levels ahead of me. I personally don't see how they are of any help. Being told to take some enhancement that you have no idea what it does or what it is for at level "x" doesn't make much sense to me. To be honest, I also don't have the resources, time, or cash to ensure that my character will have a +2 tome for every skill at 7th level. (I can barely afford the +1s for a single skill).

That said, I'm trying out the bard class. Why? I like the idea of spells and my woeful attempt at a wizard taught me that I like a little melee here and there. I also don't mind healing, so I figured...try a bard.

I have veteran status (4 level) and have unlocked the 32 point build. I've chosen Drow as my race as I've heard they get a "bump" with CHA.

Stats:

STR: 10, DEX: 15, CON: 14, INT: 14, WIS: 10, CHA: 18.

I've "toyed" around with my enhancements, picked my spells, and I feel "gimped" already.

From little I know now, Bards have very select weapons. I don't see or feel I'm on track for finesse fighting and certainly my STR isn't going to do much for me.

In retrospect, I was thinking of starting with two levels of Rogue and then switching to Bard. Not sure how that hurts me. As for help: traps, THF, evasion.

Oh...what do I want to do with this guy (almost forgot that part!). I'm okay not being front line/melee fighter. I would like to be able to skirmish somewhat and not be a complete wimp. I'm okay with healing and tossing spells here and there.

Any advice would be appreciated. This won't be the best bard ever, it'll be a learning experience for me so I'm not looking for perfection. I do feel my stats are "wrong." They feel wrong. Please advise.

With 10 str, your DPS is going to be quite low -- and so will your to-hit % unless you take weapon finesse. However, even with 15 str, you are still 2 pts away from being able to get the greater weapon feats to enhance any sort of dmg (unless you get a +2 tomb or use your +stats from leveling).

14 int seems high unless you are going to be going more rogue to do any sort of trap defense.... if you arent, then there is not real point having it that high. Same sort of idea for wisdom?

I understand you dont want someone else to plan your enhancements, but someone else might be leading you down a successful path OR (in my case) some advice regarding enhancement selection had me choose ones that I would have never have picked because I didnt fully understand either them or the game-- but the advice did not steer me wrong.

[~Jules921]

Bards can benefit every party, the trick is to figure out your role in the party - what feels right for you. I've run bards that were primary healers, crowd control masters, and front line tanks, but you won't be able to do all of that with 1 character.

Its good that you have unlocked 32 pt builds, that will help. If you want to go drow race you won't be able to use 32 point, drow already have +2 to dex, cha, int but have lower con. I don't include tomes in my builds either. I would recommend going the Warchanter route so for that you need the following feats:

Power Attack (min strength of 13)
Weapon Focus (bab of 1)

You will also need the following enhancements:

Inspired Attack 1
Inspired Damage 1
Inspired Bravery II

One reason many go with weapon finess is to use twf which needs a min of 15 dex - the thinking is if your dex is going to be high enough to have twf then just go with weapons finess and only have enough strength for power attack.

If you want to go drow try these stats instead:

Str 16
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 16

If you use a shield you will need to make sure its Mithril or you may eventually get spell failure if you are casting from scrolls.

The skill points you want to invest in for your level ups are:
Balance
Concentration
Haggle
Jump
Perform
Use Magic Device

with an int of 12 you will get one more skill as you level up - some suggestions would be:
Tumble
Heal
Diplomacy
Bluff
Intimidate

To remain viable for melee you want your level ups to be in STR, not Cha - this will limit the number of spell points you have, but if you want to melee that is your trade off.

Hope this helps,
Jules

[Humperdink]

I'm going to blatantly steal Bobo's earlier post because he does a great job summarizing the general way bards are played:

Bards: CC, FIght, BUff, Heal
Three types of Bards:
1) Spellsingers: Tend towards CC, BUff and Heal
2) Warchanters: Tend towards melee, and buff
3) Virtuouso: - barely anybody plays these - probably tend towards CC? Go either way?

Spellsingers and Watchanters are generally in greater need.

Str: Is used to determine your ability to hit and to damage.
Cha: Is used to determine your ability to land CC spells.
Con: Is used to determine hps.
Dex: Is used to pre-req for twf feats - probably too difficult of a 28pt new player build (you need to get 17 as well as being able to pump your other stats).

So, decide what kind of bard you want to be, CC or Melee, and build around that primary attribute (i.e. melee bard = high str and level ups into str). - try to start with a con of at least 14 regardless of what type of bard you are. Personally I think Humans, Dwarves, and Halflings are all better than Elfs, but up to you.

You need to take feats according to whether you went melee or CC.

General Feats (wanted by both):
Extend, Toughness, Empower Healing or Maximise is nice (often can't be fitted onto the melee builds)

Melee Feats:
Weapon Focus (needed as a Warchanter pre-req), Power Attack (also a pre-req, but a good feat), Two Handed Fighting - regular, improved, greater, or Two Weapon FIghting - regular, improved, greater. Exotic weapon prof: khopesh is nice on melee TWF builds that can fit it. Improved Criticial.

SPell Casting Feats:
Spell Foc Enchant - normal and greater, Spell Penetration - normal and greater, Heighten.

A CC build needs to stay pure for the benefits a bard gains at 20 (the capstone).

A Melee Bard often splashes fighter levels in order to gain extra feats, and rogue levels for evasion, sneak attack and trapsmithing. However the Bard/Fighter/Rogue is probably beyond the means of a new player (Bard 18 Fighter 2 might be nice).

Realise a level one Bard Spell, Master's Touch gives you proficiency with Two Handed Weapons.

I have avoided giving you a build, but hopefully that gives you enough info to make some informed decisions.

It sounds like you want to play a drow bard with some melee capability, buffing, some crowd control, and self sustainability. The class split I recommend as an option for this is 16bard/2fighter/2rogue. This is how I built my melee focused drow bard with dual rapiers:

16bard/2fighter/2rogue

Stats:

Strength 16 + 5 level up + 2 tome + 6 item + 1 Fighter + 2 Rage Spell = 32 (You could do 16 + 4 level up + 6 item +2 rage spell = 28 or 16 + 5levelup + 1 fighter + 2 rage spell= 30 if you use a +1 Dex tome)

Dexterity 16 + 2 tome + 2 racial + 6 item = 24 (you could do a single +1 Tome or use 1 level up point to get base 17 for 16 + 1 tome/level up + 1 racial + 6 item = 22)

Constitution 14 + 2 tome + 6 item + 2 Rage Spell = 24 (you could do base 16 with no tome)
Intelligence 10 + 2 tome = 12
Wisdom 8 + 6 item = 14
Charisma 14 + 2 class + 2 tome + 6 item = 24 (you can easily remove the +2 tome)

Feats:

Toughness, Weapon Focus Piercing, Power Attack, Improved Critical Piercing, TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF, Force of Personality, Extend

My characters current stats at level 18 (14bard/2fighter/2rogue) buffed with GH, Rage, and Haste:

364HP with a +6 Con item, all ranks of racial and fighter Toughness, 20 points from the Minos Legens helmet, and 20 points from an Improved False Life item.

With a +4 resistance item on and Voice of the Master:

24 Fortitude save
30 Reflex save
26 Will save

With the Cartouche necklace from Delara's Tomb, GH, and Voice of the Master I'm at a 38 UMD which is an 90% chance to land a Heal scroll and 100% on a raise dead scroll. Evasion helps you save HP by bypassing big spikes of incoming damage from Area of Effect magic (fireballs and such) assuming you make your Reflex save. Use Extended Displacement and Stoneskin Wands (Useable with the UMD skill) for protection from incoming physical damage. The keys being for me- high enough UMD to land scrolls, high scroll/wand mastery for 192pt self heals, a high enough concentration skill to use scrolls and wands while engaged in battle, stoneskin wands, displacement, and a good perform skill. I highly recommend the Invisibility spell as it allows you to bypass certain fights or travel about without getting too much agro. You can also Fascinate while invisible and sneaking and it won't break it. The bad guys only get a Listen check, not a Spot check so if you skirt around their active patrol areas, you're generally ok. Use the Fascinate song and Otto's Irresistable Dance for crowd control. Break Enchantment can be nice for clearing enemy AoE spells that are either irksome or dangerous to non evasion party members such as Blade Barrier. At the end of the day you could spend a single +1 dex tome to qualify for the Greater TWF feat and have a nice build.

[Humperdink]

I'll elaborate a little more on these skill point recommendations.

The skill points you want to invest in for your level ups are:

Balance- helps you get back up when you are knocked down or tripped, very useful for staying alive

Concentration- allows you to cast spells or use wands or scrolls while under attack, the higher the better

Haggle- lets you sell things for more money, go to the brokers as they give you more money, not the vendors

Jump- let's you get up to certain spots, jump over bad guys, etc. A useful amount to aim for is 40.

Perform- is the number that determines the effectiveness of your Fascinate song, the higher the better

Use Magic Device- this is one of the most important skills you have and lends to your survivability and versatility. It allows you to equip any kind of race restricted items, use wands and scrolls that do buffs and healing, etc. You want to get as close to 40 as possible.

Remember all of these can be augmented with gear and spells. You can put on an item that gives you a bonus to jump, perform, UMD, etc. When you cast Greater Heroism, all of these skills go up by +4, Voice of the Master adds +1 to all of these, etc.

[BrinLondo]

Thanks so very much for the VERY helpful input. Time to re-roll.