Longswords vs Handwraps

[Taimasan]

If you think +2 crit mult from a finisher is valuable then you're probably misinformed about some aspect of the game mechanics. I'd guess that you think there's some way to combine a finisher and divine sacrifice as a single attack.

I think what he means is that the action of drinking a pot, climbing a ladder breaks the finisher. But he is assuming a skill such as divine sacrifice would not.

[Trillea]

Here's a question - How much of the difference in DPS would WSS make between an Exploiter using Khopeshes vs. an Exploiter using Longswords and WSS in air stance? Would the extra swing speed of air stance and being able to use elemental strikes make up a lot of difference?

[hydra_ex]

Here's a question - How much of the difference in DPS would WSS make between an Exploiter using Khopeshes vs. an Exploiter using Longswords and WSS in air stance? Would the extra swing speed of air stance and being able to use elemental strikes make up a lot of difference?

I was thinking the same thing, but my conclusion is no, at least no on 0 fort mobs. The marginal attack speed boost is negated by the fact that the khopesh is just a much better weapon. With 50% and 100% fort, the LS in wind stance will probably win, though.

[Trillea]

I was thinking the same thing, but my conclusion is no, at least no on 0 fort mobs. The marginal attack speed boost is negated by the fact that the khopesh is just a much better weapon. With 50% and 100% fort, the LS in wind stance will probably win, though.

What about the addition of extra damage through the elemental strikes as well? Or how about this - 8 monk (for fists of light, healing amp, higher stances/strikes/ninja spy) 6 ranger (for tempest I) 6 FTR (for Kensai I) or 6 pally (for DoS I) - ooh I like the idea of the DoS I...

[Quijonsith]

Might be viable for a 14 paladin/6 monk to alternate between divine sacrifice and iron fist. I don't believe divine sacrifice breaks the earth/earth/earth combo so you could still get off the earth finisher for the +2 crit multiplier. Mix in exhalted smite and smite evil from shintao for a decent chunk of dps. Haven't run the numbers, but it should work rather well.

Paladin smites and divine sacrifice do not break monk finisher chains. I can attest to this personally (see Krigen in my sig). Intimidate, on the other hand, does. Much to my dismay. Smite from shintao monk will be considered a light move just like FoL for the purposes of finishers so if you were to throw that in for DPS you would need to keep that in mind for the finisher you want to do. In that case it would have to be a buff or a heal.

[Isolani]

What about a 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter build with LS? Wind III + Tempest, with some 15% fighter haste boosts. I am more interested in some sort of short sword ninja spy build personally, but after reading this it seems like even splash builds do more damage with handwraps, which is kinda boring. Not much variety in the game when handwraps are the only decent choice for anybody with some monk levels, and khopesh for everybody else.

[oweieie]

What about a 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter build with LS? Wind III + Tempest, with some 15% fighter haste boosts.

2 more fighter levels and you get 20% and a feat, 4 more and you get yet another feat and more strength.

Anyway we're assuming monks will have full BAB including BAB speed.

Plus monks using swords is just plain stupid. What the heck are they thinking? A monk that uses swords is called a fighter.

[sephiroth1084]

I'd like to see a few DPS comparisons between longswords and handwraps across a couple of levels and with varying degrees of equipment:
-Running finding decent handwraps can be much more difficult than running the Shroud to craft a Lightning II weapon (2 is probably comparable) simply because you have to A) find them in random loot or find them on the AH, and B) have enough funds available to spend on the exorbitant AH prices, whereas simply running the Shroud ~20 times will yield your GS weapon.

-Prior to level 18 the ToD rings are unavailable and represent a significant loss for handwraps.

-Certainly, comparing a +5 Holy Greater Bane (5d6+4+whatever the unarmed damage is vs. damage with a Lightning II +3d6+1d10 +better crits) isn't a very good comparison.

Basically, is it only at endgame with all the best gear that handwraps are so far ahead, or is that the case at all levels?

If it is, then clearly the feat needs to be reevaluated, as does perhaps unarmed damage in general.

[Eurytos]

I'd like to see a few DPS comparisons between longswords and handwraps across a couple of levels and with varying degrees of equipment:
-Running finding decent handwraps can be much more difficult than running the Shroud to craft a Lightning II weapon (2 is probably comparable) simply because you have to A) find them in random loot or find them on the AH, and B) have enough funds available to spend on the exorbitant AH prices, whereas simply running the Shroud ~20 times will yield your GS weapon.

The thing with shroud weapons is that sure, you can make one after 20 runs. Except you need 2 for a single set. Then you'll need to make 2 more for a different enemy (LS2 set and MIN2 set for example.) That's 4 shroud weapons you need. Those 4 will cost you 20 scales. Scales are roughly 300k plat each in value, 20x300k = 6 million plat in scales alone. Don't tell me you can't find all the greater banes you could ever need for 6 million plat 'cause I have them and a few other nice weighteds and other sets and haven't spent 1mil buying them. For example, instead of Min2s, a monk could simply farm shadow crypt (while getting ridiculously high amounts of XP if done at the correct level) for Devout handwraps. 10 large scales and 10 large stones saved.

Also consider that if you are using all your scales for weapons, you won't have any left over for cloaks or whatever other HP accessory you make. Handwraps are much more economical.

Depending on the level and gear, sure Longsword might be better, but you have to remember. In order for a monk to take WSS, they must take Proficiency in Longswords, Weapon focus Slashing and WSS. That's 3 feats just to be able to use the darn weapon.

If you really care about using a weapon other than handwraps, go dark path and take Ninja Spy for shortswords. You only need 1 feat to qualify for the enhancement and you're set. Shortswords are only 1 average damage less than longswords and have the same crit range. Also, shortswords will be useful banishers for quests in the vale levels, for example. Longswords can vorpal, but so can kamas, and damage doesn't matter when you vorpal.

[sephiroth1084]

The thing with shroud weapons is that sure, you can make one after 20 runs. Except you need 2 for a single set. Then you'll need to make 2 more for a different enemy (LS2 set and MIN2 set for example.) That's 4 shroud weapons you need. Those 4 will cost you 20 scales. Scales are roughly 300k plat each in value, 20x300k = 6 million plat in scales alone. Don't tell me you can't find all the greater banes you could ever need for 6 million plat 'cause I have them and a few other nice weighteds and other sets and haven't spent 1mil buying them. For example, instead of Min2s, a monk could simply farm shadow crypt (while getting ridiculously high amounts of XP if done at the correct level) for Devout handwraps. 10 large scales and 10 large stones saved.

Also consider that if you are using all your scales for weapons, you won't have any left over for cloaks or whatever other HP accessory you make. Handwraps are much more economical.

Depending on the level and gear, sure Longsword might be better, but you have to remember. In order for a monk to take WSS, they must take Proficiency in Longswords, Weapon focus Slashing and WSS. That's 3 feats just to be able to use the darn weapon.

If you really care about using a weapon other than handwraps, go dark path and take Ninja Spy for shortswords. You only need 1 feat to qualify for the enhancement and you're set. Shortswords are only 1 average damage less than longswords and have the same crit range. Also, shortswords will be useful banishers for quests in the vale levels, for example. Longswords can vorpal, but so can kamas, and damage doesn't matter when you vorpal.

Actually, my point was that such an analysis would demonstrate for the devs just how incredibly underpowered this feat is (assuming handwraps still win even with much inferior equipment), in the hopes that they do something to buff this--at the very least by dropping the prerequisites. Obviously, getting the devs to change something because it is much too weak is a longshot, but I think that such an analysis would be useful.

To summarize for any devs following along (you should probably put something like this into the OP):
-Longsword DPS is behind handwrap DPS by about 50% at endgame
-Longsword DPS is behind handwrap DPS by about X% at level Y, before handwraps gain all of their goodies
-In order to shoot yourself in the foot in this fashion, you have to spend three feats
-In order to shoot yourself in the foot in this fashion, you have to spend heaps of ingredients to make weapons that are inferior anyway.

[Angelus_dead]

in the hopes that they do something to buff this--at the very least by dropping the prerequisites.

Yep, back when Whirling Steel Strike was first leaked it was suggested that the Weapon Focus requirement should really be removed.

[Eurytos]

Working on DPS spreadsheet comparisons of a pure monk vs monster longsword vs monster khopesh vs 12ftr/8monk handwrap. Coming soon...

[sephiroth1084]

Yep, back when Whirling Steel Strike was first leaked it was suggested that the Weapon Focus requirement should really be removed.

Got to love when the devs don't listen to us at all on fairly obvious issues, or run their own numbers.

Looks like they're releasing 3 new feats to join the likes of Snake Blood and Resilience, except that these new feats also come with prerequisites. Joy.

What could be done to make these worthwhile?

Zen Archery - Bows counted as monk weapons for the purpose of remaining centered, maybe even allow it to function with monk strikes.

Whirling Steel Strike - Remove all of the prerequisites. The feat will still be pretty far behind handwraps (and will be behind shortswords when Ninja Spy hits probably as well simply due to that coming for free with something that also provides more damage).

Brutal Throw - Wrap Power Throw (PA w/ thrown weapons) into the feat, or fix the attack speed of thrown weapons.

[Eurytos]

Working on DPS spreadsheet comparisons of a pure monk vs monster longsword vs monster khopesh vs 12ftr/8monk handwrap. Coming soon...

Here it is: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=249101

Bow down to the handwrap

[wolfy42]

I've never been a fan of the longsword. When they added scimitars to elves I was overjoyed (Even if I still don't play many elves).

I agree the pre-reqs are a bit crazy. I think though that everyone is missing the point here. We should not be comparing handwraps to longswords but Kama's to Longswords.

Long swords are quite superior to kama's and honestly it is easier (at least now) to get good longswords as you level up compared to handwraps. End game the handwrap damage might blow away the longsword damage (without going all out specializing in them at least) but I think even those numbers are skewed a bit.

As other people have mentioned you can multiclass quite well and boost longsword damage significantly.

Monk 2 (evasion, wisdom ac, wind stance 1, monkey form for resists, 2 bonus feats etc)
6 ranger (ram's might, tempest (10% attack speed boost) 2 favored enemies, wand healing/resists etc, TWF/ITWF free etc)

12 fighter (kensie 2, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, fighter longsword specialization enhancement, fighter strength boost 3, power surge, fighter haste boost IV, 7 bonus feats)

Sounds like a pretty good build to me.

You get a ton of bonuses over a pure monk (lose some stuff too of course) but damage is increased significantly. You get 5 more strength all the time between ram's might and fighter strength III and +13 strength while power surge is active (not to mention generating 2 more Ki per hit).

Damage bonuses are huge as well. +2 damage from kensi, + 4 from weapon spec, + 1 from fighter longsword enhancement (not counting elven as race should not factor in), +2 damage from ram's might.

Without factoring in strength at all that is +9 damage per hit.

Tempest added to wind stance ! and haste will make both handwraps and unarmed have almost exactly the same number of attacks. Fighter haste boost IV makes the long swords come out ahead (someone should do the numbers but Tempest just about makes up for the base difference in attacks between unarmed and longsword by itself. Haste + Wind Stance 1, is only 5% (think it is) slower then Wind Stance IV.

As far as strength only affecting one hand. +13 strength to both hands is going to make up for twice that much on one hand (off hand).

Lets look at the numbers real quick

Say your running with a 30 strength (just an easy number).

30 strength is +10 damage on both hands for unamered. Total damage bonus = 20

30 strength is +10 damage on primary and +5 on offhand for the longswords.

Difference normally would be 5 with the same stats.

Add 13 extra strength (lets say you use a +3 tome instead of a +4...so just +12 strength)

12 extra strength adds 6 damage on your primary hand and 3 on your offhand.

Total strength damage of handwraps per attack = 20
Total strength damage of longsword per attack = 24

And the longswords gain +6 to hit as well, more then mitigating even the to hit penalty if you don't take OTWF (which you probably would with all the bonus fighter feats).

Even if you are running with a 40 base strength you end up with.

40 strength = 15+15 for handwraps = 30 total
52 strength = 21 + 10 for longswords = 31 total

The longsword user comes out ahead even when not using power surge at a strength of 30 or so just based on strength damage alone. Thats not factoring in the +9 damage mentioned above.

Of course you also have 2 favored enemies which will allow you to get 5-6 extra damage vs a large percentage of enemies in end game.

So yeah, for pure monks handwraps are coming out way ahead...a pure monk should obviously use them (although they are still much better then kama's).

For a hybrid though? I can see a dual longsword build working quite well now.

[Eurytos]

Check the post above the one you just made for a direct comparison and calculation of everything you just mentioned.

Hybrid builds other thanelf, yes elf + longsword is good. If any other race, just take khopeshes and use 1 less feat.

[Steveohio]

Good discussion, since the next update the monk PRC will have some great builds.

working on my next build here, but could anyone give me a quickrundown of the potential dps I could see here?


6 ranger tempest
7 rogue assassin +9 SA dmg enhancements and haste boost 3
7 monk dark path ninja spy in windstance 2
+12 halfling SA dmg enhancments

Shortswords, str based GTWF.

I got the rest of the enhancments mapped out. To me, on paper I could see this build potentially having some of the best 0% fortification dps around as well. My rogue is going to be TR'ed into this build I dubbed "Silent Wind"

Curious as the tempest windstance build I see gaining alot more steam with the new weapons monks will be centered in.

[Jasam01]

Lets see...
You'll probably do better DPS with handwraps/khopesh
By not reaching 9mnk/using shortswords you lose 33.3 DPS from touch of death

I don't see being centred > khopesh, nor shortswords > handwraps.

But thats just going by the gist of things.

[Aerendil]

*snipping to conserve space*
If you really care about using a weapon other than handwraps, go dark path and take Ninja Spy for shortswords. You only need 1 feat to qualify for the enhancement and you're set. Shortswords are only 1 average damage less than longswords and have the same crit range. Also, shortswords will be useful banishers for quests in the vale levels, for example. Longswords can vorpal, but so can kamas, and damage doesn't matter when you vorpal.

Regarding the scales, I think that's only an issue for the REALLY devoted folk.
Most TWF people I know tend to get just min2, unless they are Rogue or Rogue splash in which case they might get twin rad2s and just use a metalline of pure good as their boss beater.

The real advantage of not using handwraps of course is the availability of things such as metalline of pure good weaponry on the AH, whereas a Monk is *forced* to either farm Devouts (great xp, horrid drop rate) or wait until 18+ when he/she can put holy burst on a ring. And, as you pointed out, the special enhancements such as smiters, banishers, and so on just seem much more common on other weapons than on handwraps, so it's easier to obtain that weaponry in a non-handwrap format. A level 10-12 Monk might only be using +1 holy handwraps, or be farming away for devouts, while most other classes might be running around with dual vorpals, paralyzers, etc.

However, at endgame, unless you go a mere 6 level Monk splash, I think any higher (such as 12 Monk / whatever else) and handwraps will still win out over other weapons. I'm working on a 12 monk / 8 rogue setup currently, and it's becoming apparent that at endgame even his paltry 2d6 fist damage (would be 2d8 if TRed :/) will still be pretty impressive, especially with that extra 4d6+9 SA dice behind it, dual ring effects, +1d6 further from Ninja Spy I (possibly 2d6 if Spy II is linear progression), which more than makes up for 2 tiers of unarmed damage lost.

Never thought I'd say this, but unarmed is just too **** good

[Yaga_Nub]

Got to love when the devs don't listen to us at all on fairly obvious issues, or run their own numbers.

What's wrong with the devs running their own numbers? That's what we do right? Are you implying that they don't know how to run the numbers?

This is a flavor enhancement, pure and simple. Some people asked for it and the devs DID listen and gave it to us finally. Just because they used the exact same pre-reqs that the feats has in the Eberron Campaign Setting, don't get upset at them, get upset at WotC.