Longswords vs Handwraps

[Eurytos]

Pause on the discussion please. Found a huge error on Longsword side. Wrong elemental damage. Recalculating now.

[SolarDawning]

Eurytos, you missed something in your initial calculations.
The offhand hits from the longswords will only have half strength modifier to damage.

[Drekisen]

it's fluff....anyone who knows anything knows Monks are meant to use handwraps....don't lets the ability to have other centered weapons fool you.

[Eurytos]

Eurytos, you missed something in your initial calculations.
The offhand hits from the longswords will only have half strength modifier to damage.

Oh hell, good point. I'm not even going to bother redoing the numbers for this, but Handwraps are an even more obvious winner.

Fixed the elemental damage btw.

[SolarDawning]

Also, though you didn't include monk strikes aside from Touch of Death (which is reasonable, as they would seem to have the same impact for both weapons), you actually need to take Earth III and IV into account, as they have extra damage proccing on critical threats, and the longswords will score twice as many of those.

[Eurytos]

4.5 min for that amount of attacks = 270 seconds / 4 (cooldown on strike) = roughly 67 strikes. 20% of 67 strikes = 13.5 Earth IV and III crits.

13.5 Earth IV acid = 148.5 acid damage total
13.5 Earth III acid = 94.5 acid damage total

Very minor difference. Granted, Longsword will also get 13.5 times +16/+12 damage, but again, very minor difference. Handwraps will get half that amount. The difference between the 2 will be ~200-300. No big deal when comparing numbers over 100,000 in total.

[QuantumFX]

You know what would be cool to add? DPS calcs for non True Reincarnated monk and an Elven monk.

Edit. Also, I noticed that the passive monk past life feat is not included in either calculations.

[Geonis]

I think it's pretty obvious that the new centered weapons aren't here to replace handwraps for pure Monks.

That being said, I do plan to make a LS Monk splash character. (Some of us aren't as worried about being uber and play to have fun)

[Eurytos]

For Min2 vs Devouts on pit fiends, it comes down to this:

Min2

Physical Damage
15 Strength Bonus
5 Enhancement Bonus
5 Power Attack
5.5 Average of 1d10
2 Shintao Set
------------------------
32.5 Average per swing (65 Average x2 Critical)

Elemental Damage
7 Holy
3.5 Acid Burst (9 Crit)
0 Flaming Burst (0 Crit) (Epic Robe, pit fiend resistance)
-------------------------
10.5 (16 Crit)

Devouts

Physical Damage
15 Strength Bonus
2 Enhancement Bonus
5 Power Attack
13 Average of 2d12
2 Shintao Set
------------------------
37 Average per punch (74 Average x2 Critical)

Elemental Damage
3.5 Pure Good
7 Holy Burst (17.5 Crit)
3.5 Shocking Burst (9 Crit)
0 Flaming Burst (0 Crit) (Epic Robe, pit fiend resistance)
-------------------------
14 (30 Crit)


Once again, even with plain Jane Devout Handwraps, Handwraps are the superior weapon.

[SolarDawning]

Yeah, just had to suggest it for completion's sake.

[Eurytos]

You know what would be cool to add? DPS calcs for non True Reincarnated monk and an Elven monk.

Non True Reincarned monk will only average 1 less damage per punch. Not a significant difference.


An elf monk would gain +2 damage on longswords, again, not a significant difference. Especially when you consider Halflings get 8 sneak attack damage, Warforged get 3 Power attack damage, Humans get 5 Boosted base damage.

[Eurytos]

Now for monk splashes. Say, 3 levels of monk for light buffs. 1d6 Handwraps vs Greensteel Longswords.

LS2

Physical Damage
15 Strength Bonus
5 Enhancement Bonus
5 Power Attack
5.5 Average of 1d10
2 Shintao Set
------------------------
32.5 Average per swing (65 Average x2 Critical)

Elemental Damage
7 Holy
3.5 Shocking Burst (9 Crit)
3.5 Flaming Burst (9 Crit) (Epic Robe)
-------------------------
14 (25 Crit)

Add Lightning Strike (2% of 625 = 12.5 average per swing)

+5 Greater Bane Wraps

Physical Damage
15 Strength Bonus
9 Enhancement Bonus
5 Power Attack
3.5 Average of 1d6
2 Shintao Set
------------------------
34.5 Average per punch (69 Average x2 Critical)

Elemental Damage
10.5 Greater Bane 3d6
7 Holy Burst (17.5 Crit)
3.5 Shocking Burst (9 Crit)
3.5 Flaming Burst (9 Crit) (Epic Robe)
-------------------------
24.5 (44 Crit)

LS2's 12.5 average per swing is exactly offset by handwraps plain +12.5 damage extra per swing, not to mention +12% more speed with wraps.


...and AGAIN. Even on a monk splash, handwraps are the winner.

Oh, and I almost forgot AGAIN. Longswords get half STR modifier for offhand for even LESS damage.

[Geonis]

Now for monk splashes. Say, 3 levels of monk for light buffs. 1d6 Handwraps vs Greensteel Longswords.

LS2

Physical Damage
15 Strength Bonus
5 Enhancement Bonus
5 Power Attack
5.5 Average of 1d10
2 Shintao Set
------------------------
32.5 Average per swing (65 Average x2 Critical)

Elemental Damage
7 Holy
3.5 Shocking Burst (9 Crit)
3.5 Flaming Burst (9 Crit) (Epic Robe)
-------------------------
14 (25 Crit)

Add Lightning Strike (2% of 625 = 12.5 average per swing)

+5 Greater Bane Wraps

Physical Damage
15 Strength Bonus
9 Enhancement Bonus
5 Power Attack
3.5 Average of 1d6
2 Shintao Set
------------------------
34.5 Average per punch (69 Average x2 Critical)

Elemental Damage
10.5 Greater Bane 3d6
7 Holy Burst (17.5 Crit)
3.5 Shocking Burst (9 Crit)
3.5 Flaming Burst (9 Crit) (Epic Robe)
-------------------------
24.5 (44 Crit)

Not to mention +12% more speed.


...and AGAIN. Even on a monk splash, handwraps are the winner.

1- +5 Grtr Bane HWs may grow on trees in your yard, but not most yards.

2- Did we forget the average 12 pts per hit for of lightning strike?

3- 12% more speed?

4- Again with your Halfling? Why not Elf? (the most likely to use LSs) Another +2 damage per swing with LSs (and another +2 to hit).

5- Don't forget you crit twice as often with LSs.


Standard Damage

46.5 LS becomes 60.5 LS (Lit2)

vs

59 HWs (+5 Grtr Bane)

[Taimasan]

Yea handwraps all the way imo, I still am hoping that the devs have something up their sleeve for some handwrap love for update 5.

[Taimasan]

3- 12% more speed?

????

[Alintalkin]

1- +5 Grtr Bane HWs may grow on trees in your yard, but not most yards.

2- Did we forget the average 12 pts per hit for of lightning strike?

3- 12% more speed?

4- Again with your Halfling? Why not Elf? (the most likely to use LSs) Another +2 damage per swing with LSs (and another +2 to hit).

5- Don't forget you crit twice as often with LSs.


Standard Damage

46.5 LS becomes 60.5 LS (Lit2)

vs

59 HWs (+5 Grtr Bane)

Ummm, he did add lightning 2 strike dmg, reread post. Though I didn't rerun the math I believe he did at the fact that the LS2 does crit 2 as often, fury of blows makes the HW faster, Halflings will give sneak attack dmg that is higher on average dmg then +2 for elves so it a better choice overall... need I go on?

[Eurytos]

1- +5 Grtr Bane HWs may grow on trees in your yard, but not most yards.

If you can afford to use 10 Scales on 2 LS2s, you can get some +5 Greater Bane or +5 holy PG wraps. In order to max out longsword DPS, you would need 2 LS2s and 10 Min2s. 20 scales. Roughly 5mil plat worth. 6 Mil plat could buy you all the handwraps you could ever need and have some left over.

2- Did we forget the average 12 pts per hit for of lightning strike?

No we didn't, it's there. In fact, you even quoted it.

3- 12% more speed?

Unarmed is 12% faster than any twf weapon as stated by Eladrin.

4- Again with your Halfling? Why not Elf? (the most likely to use LSs) Another +2 damage per swing with LSs (and another +2 to hit).

Again, +2 damage a swing (4 on crit) vs 8 sneak attack vs 5 Human Boost vs 3 damage WF Power Attack. You tell me which is more damage. Elf is the lowest of the 4.

5- Don't forget you crit twice as often with LSs.

I'll give you that, everyone knows that



Now, is it worth a minimum 2 feats?

[Geonis]

Unarmed is 12% faster than any twf weapon as stated by Eladrin.

Then I'd say this is proof positive that is way too overpowered.

Edit- Or at least something about HW fighting is...

[Quijonsith]

Then I'd say this is proof positive that is way too overpowered.

Edit- Or at least something about HW fighting is...

handwraps are overpowered, that's pretty funny. Good one.

[Alintalkin]

Then I'd say this is proof positive that is way too overpowered.

Edit- Or at least something about HW fighting is...

Your forgeting that that is using 2 ToD rings with is the Handwrap version of greensteel and against a kopesh the handwrap is nothing. So not really overpowered.