Longswords vs Handwraps

[Eurytos]

Well, we asked for it, and we got it. Longswords are coming to monks. Now the question is... are they worth it? Pure monks will have to spend 2 feats to gain longswords when centered. 3 Feats if you include improved critical. 4 feats if you include oversized TWF. Is the damage increase enough to warrant spending those feats? Is there a damage increase at all? Well.. let's find out.

Since I'm doing this to decide whether I want to use it on my monk or not, I'm going to use my pure halfling dark monk as the baseline.

Sustained STR: 40 (16 + 5 levels + 4 tome + 1 litany + 7 epic belt + 1 exceptional + 2 madstone + 2 yugoloth + 2 rage)

Starting base at 1000 attacks before addition of speed enhancements.

Lightning Strike Longswords
- +5 Enhancement Bonus
- 1d10 Damage
- Holy Shocking Burst Shocking Blast
- +10% Speed from Wind Stance IV
- 2% Chance of ~625 damage Lightning Strike
- 17-20 Crit Range (20%)

Amount of Attacks: 1100
Amount of Misses (due to 1s): 55
Amount of Critical Hits: 220
Amount of Non-Crit Hits: 825
Amount of Lightning Strike: 20.9 (21)
Amount of Shocking Blast: 55 (4d6 or 14 average damage)

Damage Per Hit:
15 Strength Bonus
5 Enhancement Bonus
5 Power Attack
5.5 Average of 1d10
2 Shintao Set
------------------------
32.5 Average per swing (65 Average x2 Critical)

Elemental Damage Per Hit:
7 Holy
3.5 Shocking Burst (9 Crit)
3.5 Flaming Burst (9 Crit) (Epic Robe)
-------------------------
14 (25 Crit)

Non-Crit Attack Damage = 38,362.5 (26,812.5 Physical + 11,550 Elemental)
Crit Attack Damage = 19,800 (14,300 Physical + 5,500 Elemental)
Lightning Strike Damage = 13,125
Shocking Blast Damage = 770

TOTAL Damage = 72,057.5

+5 Element(d6) Handwraps of Greater Bane
- +9 Enhancement bonus (5 + 4 grtr bane)
- 2d12 Damage with Past Life
- Holy Burst, Shocking Burst, Element d6 from wraps, 3d6 Bane
- +12% Unarmed Speed and +10% Speed from Wind Stance IV
- 500 Untyped every 15 seconds (Touch of Death cannot be used with longsword)
- 19-20 Crit Range (10%)

Amount of Attacks: 1232 [1000 + (1000 x .12) + (1000 x .10)]
Amount of Misses (due to 1s): 61.6 (62)
Amount of Critical Hits: 123.2 (123)
Amount of Non-Crit Hits: 1047
Amount of Touch of Death: 18 (Considering avg amount of attacks per minute hasted monk = 255, so 1232 attacks = ~4.75min and -1 for misses)

Damage Per Hit:
15 Strength Bonus
9 Enhancement Bonus
5 Power Attack
13 Average of 2d12
2 Shintao Set
------------------------
44 Average per punch (88 Average x2 Critical)

Elemental Damage Per Hit:
3.5 Element d6
10.5 Greater Bane 3d6
7 Holy Burst (17.5 Crit)
3.5 Shocking Burst (9 Crit)
3.5 Flaming Burst (9 Crit) (Epic Robe)
-------------------------
28 (49.5 Crit)

Non-Crit Attack Damage = 75,384 (46,068 Physical + 29,316 Elemental)
Crit Attack Damage = 16,912.5 (10,824 Physical + 6,088.5 Elemental)
Touch of Death Damage = 9,000

TOTAL Damage = 101,296.5

-------------------------

Yes, Handwraps are almost 50% more damage. I had to recheck multiple times that I was adding everything up correctly since I was shocked at the difference. I thought handwraps would come out on top, but not by that much!

Still excited about longswords?

Even if you went 12monk / 6 ranger for tempest, add 10% speed to the total damage and you will end up with roughly 76,000 total damage. Pure monk handwraps are still way ahead.

[JustWinBaby]

Well, we asked for it, and we got it. Longswords are coming to monks. Now the question is... are they worth it?

Not to be picky, but since "we" were asking for Longswords....shouldn't we have figured it out before we started complaining? lol

Also, don't forget about Kamas

[Memnir]

NM.
Posted before my brain caught up.

[elgranmago13]

Yeah, I was guessing that the handwraps would still out dps the LS on a pure monk, but was wondering about all the exploiter builds and other monk splash builds that use kopesh.

[Angelus_dead]

Still excited about longswords?

If you were already a dark monk, wouldn't you have just gone Ninja for shortswords? Ninja may be a good deal anyway if it brings 3d6 sneak attack (which it might)

The additional feats required for Whirling Steel isn't justified by the higher base damage (unless you were a Light monk who can't go ninja)

[JustWinBaby]

Yeah, I was guessing that the handwraps would still out dps the LS on a pure monk, but was wondering about all the exploiter builds and other monk splash builds that use kopesh.

Even if the LS was GS? I don't think dual wielding Longswords is going to happen, so maybe a Longsword/Kama both GS. How would that do against pure monk Handwraps?

[rimble]

Nice handwraps, wish I could find...what, all 10 sets...?

Might want to just go ahead and do Elf Longsword vs Elf Unarmed...though of course there's just so many to compare...Halfling Unarmed, WF Unarmed...Half-Orc Unarmed...

Wouldn't a Bloodstone catch up the Longsword?

Not fair giving Past Life to one and not the other. Of course the Monk one is exclusive to Unarmed, and anyone can get the generic +Damage ones...but still...

Is the Longsword half-strength damage on offhand vs Unarmed full damage accounted for?

Are there better swords? Epic Sirocco? I dunno, haven't payed attention to Longswords...

[Alintalkin]

Even if the LS was GS? I don't think dual wielding Longswords is going to happen, so maybe a Longsword/Kama both GS. How would that do against pure monk Handwraps?

The above example is comparing handwraps to the highest none raid-boss DPS GS type, lightning 2. So yes Handwraps are still superior.
edit: was going to give a +1 I have to spread some rep before giving it to you again Eurytos.

[Eurytos]

Even if the LS was GS? I don't think dual wielding Longswords is going to happen, so maybe a Longsword/Kama both GS. How would that do against pure monk Handwraps?

Even worse.

[Goldeneye]

Longswords are tempting, but it looks like you have a good point:
Even if Longswords are centered, the unique bonuses that Monks get with handwraps are too good not to use.

The way I see it: is Lightning Strike might not be the best weapon. The extra shock damage, and LS, are equaled, if not inferior to ToD ring upgrades and Touch of Death.

I would be interested in seeing this comparison vs. Red Named Bosses.
The lack of MineralII, or equal DR-breaking hand wraps is a big hit to monk dps.

[phalaeo]

Two words....

BATTLE CLONK.

[Eurytos]

If you were already a dark monk, wouldn't you have just gone Ninja for shortswords? Ninja may be a good deal anyway if it brings 3d6 sneak attack (which it might)

Shortswords are still less damage than longswords. So yes, we could use them, but why would we? Handwraps will be more damage and we still get the sneak attack with wraps.

[Quijonsith]

Even if the LS was GS? I don't think dual wielding Longswords is going to happen, so maybe a Longsword/Kama both GS. How would that do against pure monk Handwraps?

The longsword in the OP is greensteal, Lightning II to be exact, and I think the OP is treating the character as wielding 2 of them.

[Eurytos]

The longsword in the OP is greensteal, Lightning II to be exact, and I think the OP is treating the character as wielding 2 of them.

Precisely. Working on Min II vs Devouts now.

[SolarDawning]

Centered longswords aren't exciting for a pure monk.
For monk splashes, on the other hand... Delicious.

[Quijonsith]

Precisely. Working on Min II vs Devouts now.

That will be an interesting comparison. I look forward to your conclusions on that one.

[Chai]

I knew there would be spreadsheet dps style breakdowns soon. What took you so long?

I dont expect that 1d10 19-20 crit would be anywhere near 2d10 20 crit. They shouldnt completely break DnD core rules just to toss us a bone, when it would be better to just fix whats already broke.

[Marr0w1]

Nicely done on the maths there.
I'd still add bonus points to the longswords for a few reasons:
-easier to carry that one set of easily made GS swords, than to find/carry +5 elemental greater banes for everything.
- at least this will give monks a decent weapon to break DR/slashing
-Availability of more vorpals and W/P etc that can be used
-good for lower level monks, given that named/twink longswords available greatly outnumber named kama/wraps.
-The longsword dps is not dependent on path. If you were playing a light based monk the dps would be the same for the swords, but less for unarmed
-Epic longswords > Epic handwraps
-You could then use your ToD rings for things other than burst effects.
-The sword dps is not affected by not having monk past-life (which is a feat itself)

I love your work, I'm just saying that I'd take extra factors like this into account as well. I almost wish I hadn't TR'ed mine

[xEthreal]

I would like to see maybe a Monster Build with Longswords so...

Using MIn II Swords
Kensai 2 + 10% Tempest + 1st Wind stance
Also with the Boosts like Fighter haste and Power Surge.

That combination with elves might actually pull out ahead of the cookie cutter WF build with khopeshes.

Just wondering

[QuantumFX]

The advantage of WSS is that it gives multiclass builds more options. (The feat was originally designed for fighter/monks and paladin/monks.)

With abilities like Ninja Spy and WSS it pulls the class away from the “Only build a character with 1/2/20 levels of monk” problem it currently has.