Solar Phoenix, updated for Mod 5.

[Diyon]

OK, I really don't want to get obsessively involved with minmaxing and number crunching again but anything I don't understand, I need to know.

So a couple of breakdowns.

Assuming I have:

30% - Human Racial Enhancements
20% - Hunter of the Dead II
20% - Monk Class Enhancements
25% - Jidz-Tet'ka
10% - House J Healer Guild Buff

This means I will get 1*1.3*1.2*1.2*1.25*1.1 = 2.574 multiplier on all incoming heals.

Example A: Incoming heal for 100
100*2.574 = 257.4 effective healed

Example B: Incoming heal for 100 (With Sup Ardor (75%)) so effective heal is 175?
175*2.574 = 450.45 effective healed?

Now assuming I'm using Healing Ki (Copypasta from OP):

10d4 = 25 average.
+40% Paladin Devotion IV = 35
+75% Superior Ardor 1 potion = 53.75
53.75 multiplied by 2.574 = 138.3525 effective healed


So, OK. 138 on average pales in comparison with the 215.5 average from the original build.

But 138 healed is still pretty impressive IMO, and I'm not exactly going to do epic raids where obviously every single number counts.

Anyway, I don't really care about massive numbers. I just want to know if this build would be viable with budget gear, whether or not I would enjoy levelling this or if I will end up smashing my head against the keyboard in frustration and LR to something else.

Thanks.

You get along with budget gear (although, to be honest the gear this build needs isn't pricey at all. A triple positive LS only takes 2 large scales, you can get that from just running the shroud normally. The other difficult piece is the DT armor, which isn't pricey its just luck. You don't even need a particular sovereign rune. And that's going to get a lot easier to deal with in a few days with the runes getting identified. If you go the extra mile, epic gloves of the claw are definitely not budget gear) but whether or not you will enjoy it is questionable. Your survivability, especially once you get the amps you listed, will still be awesome in groups, but you will be a lot more reliant on outside healing. Solo ability is where the budget gear will kick you the most, As that difference in the amount you can self heal will be enough that you won't be able to survive a number of things on your own. Particularly, there is the difference of you will be healing 2 or 4 hp per swing, compared to 4 or 8 hp a swing, in combination with the lessened healing ki.

Of course this all depends on your play style and what you will consider fun. In any case I would tell you to go for it anyways, because really, the amp gear isn't that hard to get, you should be able to get it without any input from other characters even. The LS is just a number of shroud runs, and the DT, all you'll have to do is run Prey on the Hunter and either you will pull the 20% amp rune, or someone else in the group will get it that doesn't need it, and you can trade them your pull for it. The 10% amp rune will be ridiculously easy with the update, just turn in 50 draconics once or twice for you choice of a rune and you should be sure to get it that way.

[AylinIsAwesome]

A pure monk with a full spectrum of bursts can easily top GS, but not this build despite that wraps attack faster, or so I think at least.

However, I would also be interested to see any actual numbers if anyone feels like crunching them (considering realistic scenario's), to know the exact difference.

What bursts are you talking about? Everyone can wear ToD rings, and nothing stops you from using tier 2 Monk strikes along with your Divine Sacrifice and Smite Evils.

[Tobril]

What bursts are you talking about? Everyone can wear ToD rings, and nothing stops you from using tier 2 Monk strikes along with your Divine Sacrifice and Smite Evils.

Just a reminder for whoever does the calculation, divine sacrifice and smite evil only proc on the "main hand" when using handwraps. (u6, unknown if this is changed in u7)

As far as weapons are concerned, you will likely end up with longswords, handwraps, picks, and a few other special weapons (dreamspitter) that all have their place in the appropriate situations.

Also be cognizant of the fact that using handwraps primarily and relying on burst effects from rings will complicate your gear situation as if you were a pure monk. (not a bad thing, just requires more work/planning)

[NUDS]

-snip-

Thanks man, I will definitely give it a try Especially with the surprise 25% bonus to exp, I will probably get to cap sooner than I anticipated.

Looking at the gear, I have about 2 mill plat. Maybe I can just buy the larges and nab an invite on to a guild airship that has the GS crafting thing :P

Otherwise I haven't done any endgame stuff or any raids at all. I think I was actually flagged for shroud when I was levelling up in the Vale. I remember getting some random stones and then some guy told me to combine them and then they were like "Oh well done, you are flagged for the Shroud now!".

I have some draconic token things from rare hunting in Reavers Reach. Shouldn't be a problem to farm 50. Although I have no idea what to do next :P

The Epic gloves of the Claw look really sweet, but I seriously doubt it's anywhere near obtainable for me.



Anyway, thanks again for the advice! Looking forward to getting this build in action soon

[makmakkabab]

What is appealing about this build more then say a pure monk? with the same effort you can get almost the same healing emp on a 20 monk. I will lose 20% from HotD and gain 10% from monk. so the difference is 10% multiplier. except from that its UMD, and the HotD level drain immunity and ghost touch. now, although losing level drain and UMD is annoying, you do gain full monk damage dice, grand master of the sun, abilities, and -10 dr/epic. also, if they ever decide to change the healing curse mechanism to count only monk levels, your build stays completely intact. am I missing something?

[Cinnamon_Girl]

For me at least, it's partly about the style and feel of the build. The synergistic melding the three classes had a certain appeal to me. I'd been playing around with paladin multi-class builds for months and hadn't really found one that seemed as effective as I'd wanted. It can be difficult to accomplish that, but this build does very well for itself. Sure, technically, there are things about the build that are better than or worse than a pure monk, but the same thing can be said for any pure build versus any multi-class one.

[Diyon]

What is appealing about this build more then say a pure monk? with the same effort you can get almost the same healing emp on a 20 monk. I will lose 20% from HotD and gain 10% from monk. so the difference is 10% multiplier. except from that its UMD, and the HotD level drain immunity and ghost touch. now, although losing level drain and UMD is annoying, you do gain full monk damage dice, grand master of the sun, abilities, and -10 dr/epic. also, if they ever decide to change the healing curse mechanism to count only monk levels, your build stays completely intact. am I missing something?

Well getting almost as much amp misses the point of the classic version of the build. Over 400% amp, which makes healing ki really nice, and curse of healing give 4 or 8 hp. Pure monk can achieve 362.505% amp with no guild buffs or past lives, but this requires Epic Gloves of the Claw which are ML20, or for you to not use handwraps to get the 30% amp. Without it you're only sitting at 278.85% amp, where at higher levels the amp will be nice, but will hardly get quite the similar effect. The strength of the multiclass here is that its helping optimize its dps and utilities in the trade off of using GS weapons. With the multiclassing, using the GS over handwraps is little loss because you haven't invested more levels of monk, where a chunk of the DPS is going to come from high unarmed damage. Here you invest in paladin levels which you don't lose any of its functionality from using the GS weapons over wraps, as well as gain more amp, immunities, ghost touch, more hp, EDIT: Lay on Hands can't forget that life saver, and better saves, as well as whatever you pick up from a small splash level (most often UMD and Open Lock).

That doesn't mean a pure monk with high amp isn't good by any means, it just doesn't quite accomplish the "I can live forever" capabilities that this build can achieve. Plus, I love being able to sit in front of beholders and laugh at them (no negs, the only truly threatening thing they can accomplish is a disintegrate and you save most of the time, if you fail, you heal it up right away at no investment of limited resources).

[makmakkabab]

I do have another question. In the original build, the OP took shintao monk pre for a faster healing via a second skill that counts as a light move. from what I'm reading in this thread these days, players decided against that move because previously the second light move was bugged. however, I see that the smite taint ability from the pre still counts as a light move, so isn't it make sense go back to the original idea and take the shintao prestige?

[Diyon]

I do have another question. In the original build, the OP took shintao monk pre for a faster healing via a second skill that counts as a light move. from what I'm reading in this thread these days, players decided against that move because previously the second light move was bugged. however, I see that the smite taint ability from the pre still counts as a light move, so isn't it make sense go back to the original idea and take the shintao prestige?

That part has always worked. Originally there was the smite AND the Protection from evil move, which were supposed to count as light moves. The second one never worked as a light move but was quicker and cheaper than the smite. Now the protection from evil ability has been replaced, so most people have decided that without it it's not worth getting, especially since it requires two feats that you would otherwise probably not take, and uses AP on a very tight AP build. In any case it was just going to be helpful before, the build has done fine without it.

[makmakkabab]

That part has always worked. Originally there was the smite AND the Protection from evil move, which were supposed to count as light moves. The second one never worked as a light move but was quicker and cheaper than the smite. Now the protection from evil ability has been replaced, so most people have decided that without it it's not worth getting, especially since it requires two feats that you would otherwise probably not take, and uses AP on a very tight AP build. In any case it was just going to be helpful before, the build has done fine without it.

so, since I don't have access to GS weapons, is it valid to build this around 14 levels of pally and split the rest of the levels between monk and rogue? obviously, at least 3 monk. however, if I am not going for shintao prestige, then I have 2 spare feats, losing 1 feat by not going 6 monk shouldn't be a problem, once I'll craft GS weapons I can LR to the original 12/7/1. any thoughts?

[Diyon]

so, since I don't have access to GS weapons, is it valid to build this around 14 levels of pally and split the rest of the levels between monk and rogue? obviously, at least 3 monk. however, if I am not going for shintao prestige, then I have 2 spare feats, losing 1 feat by not going 6 monk shouldn't be a problem, once I'll craft GS weapons I can LR to the original 12/7/1. any thoughts?

I've seen a number of variations built for a little higher DPS. 14/6 pally monk was one, but now with shintao not needed, I think I'll see less of it. The most common I've seen is the 15/3/2 pally/monk/fighter. Some other 14 pally or higher split with 3 monk and some rogue should be just fine. I'd still work on the GS as the option becomes available.

And ever since shintao got removed from the equation, this build has a lot more feat flexibility than before. I'm working on changing the two feats on my char, probably to toughness. Other nice choices might be skill focus UMD if you're so inclined, or SF intimidate since pally gets it as a class skill now.

[Alintalkin]

Hello,

I have reason to believe that your healing amp numbers are slight off. I believe that from testing HoTD gives 21% healing amp. This is born from the fact that I run with another solar phoenix like build. He is currently 11pal/7monk/1 ftr well I am 12pal/6monk/1rogue. He has monk improved recovery II well I have only the first tier and I have HotD II and he has the first tier. Under normal circumstances this would be seen as an even wash however, I have tried both a heal scroll and my LoH for slight different numbers on both of us.

As we currently lack GS longsword or Tempest 20% healing amp rune our healing amp should each be 235.595% (1.1 [depending on which one of us monk improved recovery or HotD] * 1.2 [depending on which one of us monk improved recovery or HotD] * 1.1 [DT] * 1.25 [Jidz tek'ta] * 1.3 [human improved recovery] )

So for my LoH (132 base) and Heal scroll (110 base healing) we both should get 311hp from LoH and 259hp from a heal scroll. This is not the case. Well my friend does get those numbers I get 314 for LoH and 261 for heal scroll.

Now if HoTD healing amp is 21 for second tier my healing amp would reach 237.91625% from the increase of having 21% healing amp from the listed 20% healing amp.

This matches what I get with heal scrolls and my LoH
2.3791625 * 110 (heal scroll)= 261.707875 (for a 261 heal as DDO always round down)
2.3791625 *132 (LoH)= 314.04945

If it was 22% healing amp increase the heal scroll would jump to 263 and LoH to 316 which I definitely do not get.

Because of this logic dictates that HoTD is actually 21% healing amp on the second tier. Given that the pre never says the exact healing amp of the second tier it would take evidence that directly refutes it to make the numbers go awry. I believe that this means that it is possible that the HoTD pre healing amp increases by of 10% then 11% then 12% (for total of 33%) though I do not have a full paladin to test out last tier (therefore without absolute proof but it feels like it would follow a pattern that way). This would make the healing amp when fully geared 404.8902%. I would ask any fully geared Solar Phoenix to test the numbers out to see if I am correct or if my character is just bugged in some way.

[Darkrok]

I have reason to believe that your healing amp numbers are slight off. I believe that from testing HoTD gives 21% healing amp.

I don't have a character on which to run the test but you could certainly be correct.

I think it may be that HotD gives 10% amp at EACH tier rather than bumping up the original amp. That would mean that each tier of HotD would stack multiplicatively. So tier II would be 1.1 * 1.1 for a total of 1.21 - the 21% amp you mentioned. If this is true then tier III would be 1.1 ^ 3 or 33% amp.

I'd be interested to hear some more tests but that's certainly an outcome that would match to the current game design.

[Diyon]

Hello,

I have reason to believe that your healing amp numbers are slight off. I believe that from testing HoTD gives 21% healing amp. This is born from the fact that I run with another solar phoenix like build. He is currently 11pal/7monk/1 ftr well I am 12pal/6monk/1rogue. He has monk improved recovery II well I have only the first tier and I have HotD II and he has the first tier. Under normal circumstances this would be seen as an even wash however, I have tried both a heal scroll and my LoH for slight different numbers on both of us.

As we currently lack GS longsword or Tempest 20% healing amp rune our healing amp should each be 235.595% (1.1 [depending on which one of us monk improved recovery or HotD] * 1.2 [depending on which one of us monk improved recovery or HotD] * 1.1 [DT] * 1.25 [Jidz tek'ta] * 1.3 [human improved recovery] )

So for my LoH (132 base) and Heal scroll (110 base healing) we both should get 311hp from LoH and 259hp from a heal scroll. This is not the case. Well my friend does get those numbers I get 314 for LoH and 261 for heal scroll.

Now if HoTD healing amp is 21 for second tier my healing amp would reach 237.91625% from the increase of having 21% healing amp from the listed 20% healing amp.

This matches what I get with heal scrolls and my LoH
2.3791625 * 110 (heal scroll)= 261.707875 (for a 261 heal as DDO always round down)
2.3791625 *132 (LoH)= 314.04945

If it was 22% healing amp increase the heal scroll would jump to 263 and LoH to 316 which I definitely do not get.

Because of this logic dictates that HoTD is actually 21% healing amp on the second tier. Given that the pre never says the exact healing amp of the second tier it would take evidence that directly refutes it to make the numbers go awry. I believe that this means that it is possible that the HoTD pre healing amp increases by of 10% then 11% then 12% (for total of 33%) though I do not have a full paladin to test out last tier (therefore without absolute proof but it feels like it would follow a pattern that way). This would make the healing amp when fully geared 404.8902%. I would ask any fully geared Solar Phoenix to test the numbers out to see if I am correct or if my character is just bugged in some way.

I've seen this explained before (I think somewhere in this thread), what's happening is that the game's calculations aren't completely precise. During the calculations (how and at what points I have no clue), the game rounds up. This is why you get slightly bigger numbers than expected.

[Alintalkin]

I've seen this explained before (I think somewhere in this thread), what's happening is that the game's calculations aren't completely precise. During the calculations (how and at what points I have no clue), the game rounds up. This is why you get slightly bigger numbers than expected.

I think that Darkrok's explanation of it each adding 10% healing amp dependent of each other is possibly most accurate as it to would bump second tier to 21% healing amp well having the game numbers accurate. Nothing that I know of healing amp wise rounds up ever. To say that the game's calculations aren't completely precise when something is presented that can prove that the game's calculations are in fact precise is not the best without true evidence that in fact proves that it is incorrect. I outlined an example in which two people had the exact same gear setup in which the only difference was HoTD II vs Monk improved Healing amp II. As there is a difference in the numbers in a way that can be made logically (By mine or Darkrok's idea) then the game is not imprecise in it calculations. If you can use a heal spell of LoH or Unyielding sovereignty on another character with HoTD II or III and it goes against the presented evidence in the current findings then the game calculations can be called imprecise.

Therefore I am still waiting for someone else to prove or disprove my findings through math and in game experience. The guess that the game calculations were imprecise (I did read that in this thread, as I do not posts in threads I haven't fully read) was supposing that the second tier of HoTD only gave 20% healing amp when my evidence points to it giving 21%.

[squidicus]

I was reading the build, I really like the way it works, I did have a question though, not sure if it was answered already; how critical is the 7th level of monk? I ask because if you could take a second level of rogue, it would really help 32 pointers, but you'd lose the wholeness of body, not sure if that was super critical with the other bits considering it's out of combat.

[Alintalkin]

I was reading the build, I really like the way it works, I did have a question though, not sure if it was answered already; how critical is the 7th level of monk? I ask because if you could take a second level of rogue, it would really help 32 pointers, but you'd lose the wholeness of body, not sure if that was super critical with the other bits considering it's out of combat.

The second tier of monk healing amp is gained only at monk level 7. To be honest in my opionion not much comes from a second level or rogue, you already have evasion, you don't get another sneak attack die, you can get max umd without it, and it has slightly less hp then monk. The only thing it gives is skill points and I do fine with having max UMD and decent balance and concentration on a 28pt build. Forgive me if I missed something else a second level or rogue gets.

[squidicus]

The second tier of monk healing amp is gained only at monk level 7. To be honest in my opionion not much comes from a second level or rogue, you already have evasion, you don't get another sneak attack die, you can get max umd without it, and it has slightly less hp then monk. The only thing it gives is skill points and I do fine with having max UMD and decent balance and concentration on a 28pt build. Forgive me if I missed something else a second level or rogue gets.

Was seeing if there was a better way for lower point builds to get a better dd/search without blowing all sp on it. Obviously the healing amp is a hell of a lot more important than a gimpy half baked rogue skill collection. Probably just focus on UMD if anything.

[PopeJual]

Any thoughts on the new Update 7 weapons?

Being able to get Stunning +6, Flesh To Stone and Lesser Vampirism on a set of handwraps looks pretty attractive (Stonedust wraps +

At 500+% healing amp, you'll be picking up 5 HP per hit against all enemies with these. 5 free HP every time you swing your fists sounds pretty attractive on everything that doesn't have significant DR.

[slimkj]

My HA char, similar to this, already uses wraps through preference so I'm looking forward to playing with a pair of them.