Solar Phoenix, updated for Mod 5.

[Jasam01]

How much healing would you be losing from going unarmed?

If it's losable, it would really be worth doing some comparisions for what you can get by going unarmed(+free feat) instead.

The +unarmed speed tends to pull out ahead more often then not even with the smaller crit range. It would require someone to 'do the math' though.

I only really bring it up after looking at the spreadsheet in the monk forum, which shows longswords coming up short then unarmed. And other builds that are doing well with it. It's one of these things where 'seems to favour' doesn't hold out over a few minutes of actual fighting.

[DemonMage]

This builds unarmed die is only 1d8, which is the same as longsword (greensteel is 1d10), so you're trading 10% attack speed for 5% crit, once you've got greensteel you're also losing 1 average damage. You're also losing 30% healing amp, which due to the way amp stacks you're dropping down to 300%~ healing amp. That's a significant loss for little to no gain.

[Caprice]

Does the Paladin TR +5% on incoming healing stack with the other healing amps here?

I know the OP has Monk TRs and is getting +damage from that, but I was thinking about what TRs one would hypothetically choose to min-max the build concept.

[sigtrent]

I'm thinking of adding the longsword action to my champion build as well. I'd be dropping dodge and (empower healing?) for it. I already use kopeshs (no healing ki) as a dps technique and switch from those to fists. Longsword would be kind of like the "middle way" somewhere between maximum DPS and maximum self sufficiency.

[Jasam01]

This builds unarmed die is only 1d8, which is the same as longsword (greensteel is 1d10), so you're trading 10% attack speed for 5% crit, once you've got greensteel you're also losing 1 average damage. You're also losing 30% healing amp, which due to the way amp stacks you're dropping down to 300%~ healing amp. That's a significant loss for little to no gain.

If it's down the the healing amp loss I wouldn't bother even running the actual numbers.

But it wouldn't be suprising if there was a larger gain then you would expect, it wouldn't be the first time unarmed has come out on top. If I recall correctly there was that build with mnk 1 splash that still managed to come out top with unarmed. If the loss of haling amp is too great though, it's a wasted thought tbh ^^'

[Resilian]

Ignoring the Placeholder feats/enhancements and the order that anything is in..how does this look for a 32pt. build version of it for pre-5? It leaves 6 AP left for Fist of Life and Shintao Monk I, and Toughness switched with Whirling Steel Strike post mod 5.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Nishida Solar
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(12 Paladin \ 7 Monk \ 1 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 296
Spell Points: 177 
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 20
Will: 16

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             15                 22                   24
Dexterity            15                 17                   18
Constitution         12                 14                   14
Intelligence         10                 12                   12
Wisdom               12                 14                   14
Charisma             14                 16                   17

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 20
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               6                  8                    8
Bluff                 3                  3                    3
Concentration         1                  2                    2
Diplomacy             3                  3                    3
Disable Device        n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle                7                 22                   22
Heal                  1                  2                    2
Hide                  6                  8                    8
Intimidate            3                  3                    3
Jump                  6                 11                   11
Listen                1                  2                    2
Move Silently         6                  8                    8
Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                  1                    1
Search                0                  1                    1
Spot                  5                  9                    9
Swim                  6                 11                   11
Tumble                6                  8                    8
Use Magic Device      7                 26                   26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Luck of Heroes
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Human Versatility I


Level 2 (Monk)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Haggle (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 5 (Monk)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Lifting the Veil
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning I


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion III


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning II


Level 13 (Monk)
Skill: Haggle (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: The Receptive Earth


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning II


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion IV


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning III


Level 18 (Monk)
Skill: Haggle (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Restoring the Balance


Level 19 (Monk)
Skill: Haggle (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Difficulty at the Beginning


Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II

Side question -- As I'll be using this build to level my character from 1..what if anything should take priority in terms of what to pick first for better leveling experience (enhancements and/or feats)

[Darkrok]

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly with the DT'd armor's healing amp, even though it's the same item it counts as two different 'sources' of amp and as such are multiplied separately?

[SolarDawning]

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly with the DT'd armor's healing amp, even though it's the same item it counts as two different 'sources' of amp and as such are multiplied separately?

Correct. The 10% and 20% multiply together, like all other sources of healing amplification.

[Darkrok]

Correct. The 10% and 20% multiply together, like all other sources of healing amplification.

Outstanding! Thanks!

[Darkrok]

Next question...

With intimidate as a rogue skill and the ridiculous levels of healing amp here would it be worthwhile to get intimidate? I didn't really like trying for rogue skills with this few skill points but it seems like you'd be non-squishy enough to pull this off. The saves would be there. I'd think you'd have at least a decent ac (though I could be wrong...didn't really check). And I think you could get a decent amount of hp's as well.

Thoughts on running this as an intimitank?

[SolarDawning]

Next question...

With intimidate as a rogue skill and the ridiculous levels of healing amp here would it be worthwhile to get intimidate? I didn't really like trying for rogue skills with this few skill points but it seems like you'd be non-squishy enough to pull this off. The saves would be there. I'd think you'd have at least a decent ac (though I could be wrong...didn't really check). And I think you could get a decent amount of hp's as well.

Thoughts on running this as an intimitank?

It's possible, but I won't try it. I just don't like intimitanking on principle. In practice, I find it worse than useless- bosses act all wonky for a few seconds when coming off intimidate, or if the tank fails a check, the boss goes crazy after some of the DPS instead. I saw a ToD wipe recently on Horoth, because the intimitank lost him, and then he went running across the room to go beat at the melee's on Suulo instead.

It's much easier just to have a frenzied berserker barbarian do the tanking in any situation.

[Darkrok]

It's possible, but I won't try it. I just don't like intimitanking on principle. In practice, I find it worse than useless- bosses act all wonky for a few seconds when coming off intimidate, or if the tank fails a check, the boss goes crazy after some of the DPS instead. I saw a ToD wipe recently on Horoth, because the intimitank lost him, and then he went running across the room to go beat at the melee's on Suulo instead.

It's much easier just to have a frenzied berserker barbarian do the tanking in any situation.

I was thinking more of stuff like Orthons/Devils in VoD and general leveling/trash purposes. I know I enjoy the not getting hit part of having an intimitank around.

That said, I agree with you that I'd rather have the frenzied berserker tanking the bosses...I'm not going to peel off of that and don't have to worry about them rolling a 1 for an intimidate.

All that said I've never actually played an intimitank past level 4 so I'm not sure how well it works as you level or in raids on trash.

[Jomax]

Was curious to get some thoughts on taking favored soul levels instead of paladin levels.

Favored Soul Life Magic IV would equal Paladin's Devotion IV. Loss in healing amp would be the 20% from Hunter of the Dead II.

Favored Soul would get you longsword proficiency and some minor longsword enhancements. I guess it would come down to whether the additional spell points and spells like blade barrier would outweigh the paladin benefits of mainly smites, divine sacrifice, and divine might.

Thanks

[Darkrok]

Was curious to get some thoughts on taking favored soul levels instead of paladin levels.

Favored Soul Life Magic IV would equal Paladin's Devotion IV. Loss in healing amp would be the 20% from Hunter of the Dead II.

Favored Soul would get you longsword proficiency and some minor longsword enhancements. I guess it would come down to whether the additional spell points and spells like blade barrier would outweigh the paladin benefits of mainly smites, divine sacrifice, and divine might.

Thanks

The big thing with the healing amp hitting 400%+ is that you get another tier of curse of healing. Not to mention the fact that with the way healing amp works the more you get the more significant more becomes. That 20% you give up is the difference between ~330% healing amp and ~400% healing amp.

[sigtrent]

With intimidate as a rogue skill and the ridiculous levels of healing amp here would it be worthwhile to get intimidate? I didn't really like trying for rogue skills with this few skill points but it seems like you'd be non-squishy enough to pull this off. The saves would be there. I'd think you'd have at least a decent ac (though I could be wrong...didn't really check). And I think you could get a decent amount of hp's as well.

Thoughts on running this as an intimitank?

My version of the phoenix is an intim(psudo)tank. I have full intim and decent potential AC (CE, tower shields etc...). I say psudo because compared to a full defender both my AC and my itim is sub-par. I don't tank the bosses in raids, but I do tank some mobs and I use intim to control agro for the party. Hound got away from you... I can go fetch him. Need to separate critters in vale? No sweat I can pinpoint one and keep him busy. Running with a 150 hp rogue that likes to pull agro like mad? I can play tank and keep him out of trouble till the last fight. (and actually let him be effective at sneak attacking). It works though walls and doors, its easy to fire off, its just a really handy skill to have if you can work it into a build.

[Valakai]

Really like this build a lot but I think you should attach a disclaimer to it:

From Compendium:
Healing Ki I
10 Ki. Prep: pos pos pos
You heal all nearby allies for 1d4 plus 1d4 per two monk levels. (Does not harm undead foes)

I know at the moment its working at full character level instead of monk but if/when they fix it the healing drops to 4d4 base + amps.

I'm not saying this to jinx it or that I would want them to change it but just to warn people who roll this that it is fully possible that it will be "fixed" in the future.

[Darkrok]

My version of the phoenix is an intim(psudo)tank. I have full intim and decent potential AC (CE, tower shields etc...). I say psudo because compared to a full defender both my AC and my itim is sub-par. I don't tank the bosses in raids, but I do tank some mobs and I use intim to control agro for the party. Hound got away from you... I can go fetch him. Need to separate critters in vale? No sweat I can pinpoint one and keep him busy. Running with a 150 hp rogue that likes to pull agro like mad? I can play tank and keep him out of trouble till the last fight. (and actually let him be effective at sneak attacking). It works though walls and doors, its easy to fire off, its just a really handy skill to have if you can work it into a build.

Outstanding...that's exactly what I was looking to have. I'm not looking to be the tank with this guy. I'm just looking to be able to hit the intimidate button while running through quests or doing trash in raids to make things go more smoothly all around.

[Darkrok]

I'm tempted to try this with kamas instead of long swords similar to the build that you used in the past. How much dps are you giving up using kamas over longswords? I know we're gaining 2-3 feats (depending on whether you take weapon focus bludgeoning or not) and getting improved crit earlier to boot. That's quite a bit of extra hp's, or more UMD, or combat expertise for turtling up, etc.

Also, I'd be tempted if I had enough mats to craft a 10/20/30 amp weapon (whether I go kama or longsword). This would be in addition to a more dps-oriented 30% amp weapon. This would open up the option to use a more defensive dragontouched weapon when turtling up on end-game stuff and would also open up a lot more healing amp earlier in the game than your dragontouched would become available (since the ml on the greensteel's several levels earlier than the dragontouched).

Love the build though! The synergy between HotD paladin, Shintao monk, and human is phenomenal!

[Darkrok]

The build listed in the first post will have 17 BAB at level 20 with longswords. With the way attack bonus is implemented in DDO, the only difference you will see between 17 and 20 is a minute (only noticeable when measured out amongst hundreds of swings) difference in attack speed. There's no "extra swing" like you would see in PnP. As for the actual hit bonus itself, you'll be able to keep Divine Favor running all the time. That, not to mention the attack bonus from sovereign host enhancements, weapon focus feat, and other buffs taken into consideration means that you'll have no problem hitting at high levels.

That said, if you don't want the extra damage or skills from rogue, and would rather have 23 more HP from toughness, go for it.

I just had something occur to me. I don't think you'll have a 17 BAB with longswords. I think you'll have 19.

My reasoning is this: flurry of blows is worded that you get it while centered. It then gives examples of what would uncenter you but it seems to be coded in such a way as that it's always active when you're centered. If I'm right on how they've coded it then as long as you have the feats to stay centered with longswords you'll still benefit from flurry of blows.

[Jasam01]

I'm tempted to try this with kamas instead of long swords similar to the build that you used in the past. How much dps are you giving up using kamas over longswords? I know we're gaining 2-3 feats (depending on whether you take weapon focus bludgeoning or not) and getting improved crit earlier to boot. That's quite a bit of extra hp's, or more UMD, or combat expertise for turtling up, etc.

Also, I'd be tempted if I had enough mats to craft a 10/20/30 amp weapon (whether I go kama or longsword). This would be in addition to a more dps-oriented 30% amp weapon. This would open up the option to use a more defensive dragontouched weapon when turtling up on end-game stuff and would also open up a lot more healing amp earlier in the game than your dragontouched would become available (since the ml on the greensteel's several levels earlier than the dragontouched).

Love the build though! The synergy between HotD paladin, Shintao monk, and human is phenomenal!

The way I see it, is are those extra feats that WSS requires costing more then the +base damage on longswords. I'm not sure if there is an alternitive to impove it or not.