Solar Phoenix, updated for Mod 5.

[voodoogroves]

I'd wager a guess that it allows you to pick the Sovereign Host enhancements for longsword attack/damage adders w/ pally ... and it allows for the use of greensteel weapons (two of them) as opposed to whatever wraps you can find/buy.

[ConnorMacLoad]

I'd wager a guess that it allows you to pick the Sovereign Host enhancements for longsword attack/damage adders w/ pally ... and it allows for the use of greensteel weapons (two of them) as opposed to whatever wraps you can find/buy.

This was my thinking as well, especially when I first saw the LS feat, but the difference in damage was very wide. To the point that I am not sure now that SH enhancement is enough to catch. I have not ran numbers, but maybe I should..... I was just thinking that maybe there was a large amount of value in longswords here that I am missing, as apposed to wraps.

[hydra_ex]

This was my thinking as well, especially when I first saw the LS feat, but the difference in damage was very wide. To the point that I am not sure now that SH enhancement is enough to catch. I have not ran numbers, but maybe I should..... I was just thinking that maybe there was a large amount of value in longswords here that I am missing, as apposed to wraps.

A few things put longswords in favour of this build.
1. Eurytos' calculations include a red scale robe, which a. does not work on devils and b. is not used on this build.
2. Smites (both from Shintao I, and Paladin) are not included, which favour weapons with higher critical ranges, and, being clicky based, are not biased to a differential in attack speeds.
3. Seeker damage (+4, minimum) is not included, which favours weapons with higher critical ranges.
4. Divine Sacrifice is not included, which favours weapons with higher critical ranges, and, being clicky based, is not biased to a differential in attack speeds.
5. Touch of death is included in Eurytos' calculations, for which this build does not qualify.
6. Fist damage is much lower on this build.
7. Wind stance attack speed boost is much lower on this build.
8. Nearly impossible to obtain handwraps are used in Eurytos' calculations.
9. Exalted Smite is not included, which favours weapons with high critical ranges, and, being clicky based, is not biased to a differential in attack speeds.
10. Against high end boss monsters with DR, the difference in added effects between a MineralII and the devout wraps is a ton lower than the difference between litII and uber bane handwraps.

Of course, this build does not dual wield LitII longswords (either LitII/pos3 or minII/minII), but all the above probably put the longsword substantially in the lead.

However, I can think of something things in favour of wraps, Tharne's Goggles and the 1d6 SA damage.

Any increase to base damage numbers might favour either one. To test, we have to see how much faster one attacks with wraps vs longswords. So, the difference is the 12% increase from using wraps.
So, for every n points in increase to base damage and s increase in STR (highly unlikely) over an a number of swings with a longsword:

LS:
Misses: 0.05a
Regular Hits: 0.75a
Crits: 0.2a
So, over a swings,
MH: 0.75a/2*(n + s) +0.2a/2*(2(n + s)) = 0.575a(n + s)
OH: 0.75a/2*(n + s/2) +0.2a/2*(2(n + s/2)) = 0.575a(n + s/2)
Total: a(1.15n + 0.8625s)

Wraps: -> number of attacks = 1.12a
Misses: 0.056a
Regular Hits: 0.952a
Crits: 0.112a
MH+OH = 0.952a(n + s) + 0.112a(n + s) = a(1.064n + 1.064s)

So, as we can see, assuming STR does not increase (which is rare), additions to base damage (songs, litany) favour the longsword. In fact, additional damage only favours wraps if s > 4.268n. That is a very difficult (if not impossible) parameter to meet, so, this leads to the conclusion, that, beyond doubt LS > wraps.

[ConnorMacLoad]

A few things put longswords in favour of this build.
1. Eurytos' calculations include a red scale robe, which a. does not work on devils and b. is not used on this build.
2. Smites (both from Shintao I, and Paladin) are not included, which favour weapons with higher critical ranges, and, being clicky based, are not biased to adifferential in attack speeds.
3. Seeker damage (+4, minimum) is not included, which favours weapons with higher critical ranges.
4. Divine Sacrifice is not included, which favours weapons with higher critical ranges, and, being clicky based, is not biased to a differential in attack speeds.
5. Tough of death is included in Eurytos' calculations, for which this build does not qualify.
6. Fist damage is much lower on this build.
7. Wind stance attack speed boost is much lower on this build.
8. Nearly impossible to obtain handwraps are used in Eurytos' calculations.
9. Exalted Smite is not included, which favours weapons with high critical ranges, and, being clicky based, is not biased to a differential in attack speeds.
10. Against high end boss monsters with DR, the difference in added effects between a MineralII and the devout wraps is a ton lower than the difference between litII and uber bane handwraps.

Of course, this build does not dual wield LitII longswords (either LitII/pos3 or minII/minII), but all the above probably put the longsword substantially in the lead.

I realize I may be de-railing this thread with this line of thought, so I will stop while posts are still helpful to this build Appreciate the response. 1-4 is what I was looking for

[AylinIsAwesome]

In another thread you mention that wraps are better DPS than longswords, even in splashes (at least I think it was you....same avatar ) curious why longswords are used here instead of wraps? This is more a question for dawn I suppose, but since you also had the info on DPS, thought I would ask you too.

The main reason (apart from what was already said) is that you can put 30% healing amp on a Greensteel weapon. Since there are no Greensteel handwraps, going with longswords is just better.

Also I've heard horror stories about people grinding for Devout Handwraps... And with grinding for two specific things on the DT robes...less grindy things are good.

[hebularks]

can you post what a 32 pointers would have to do or is it a 36 pointers only ?

cheers

[BaronZ]

I'd started the Kama version of this as a 32-point build because sustainable self-healing intrigued me. I got to level 9 before I got distracted. I didn't see any possible way of making Rogue skills worthwhile on a 32-pointer, so I was planning on 12 paladin/8 monk. The main advantage to this is hitting BAB 20 with monk weapons. I was also thinking there was something worthwhile in Monk 8, but looking at it again this is only the case for unarmed.

If I were to attempt this with update 5 on a 32 pointer (which I probably will). I'd likely replace your Rogue level with Fighter.

Pros:

Access to Fighter Haste Boost
BAB 20 with Monk weapons (really disappointed if this isn't the case with long swords and WSS) for extra swing
Extra Feat (probably a second Toughness)
Nothing really worthwhile in Paladin 13 or Monk 8 for this build

Cons (as opposed to Rogue):
Lose 1d6 sneak attack
Lose UMD as a class skill
Lose trap smithing/lock picking skills (which I wouldn't have been able to keep up in my Paladin levels with an 8 Int)

[SolarDawning]

I'd started the Kama version of this as a 32-point build because sustainable self-healing intrigued me. I got to level 9 before I got distracted. I didn't see any possible way of making Rogue skills worthwhile on a 32-pointer, so I was planning on 12 paladin/8 monk. The main advantage to this is hitting BAB 20 with monk weapons. I was also thinking there was something worthwhile in Monk 8, but looking at it again this is only the case for unarmed.

If I were to attempt this with update 5 on a 32 pointer (which I probably will). I'd likely replace your Rogue level with Fighter.

Pros:

Access to Fighter Haste Boost (Rogue has an identical enhancement, Rogue Haste Boost 1)
BAB 20 with Monk weapons (really disappointed if this isn't the case with long swords and WSS) for extra swing (There's no "extra swing" at specific BAB's like there is in PnP, see below.)
Extra Feat (probably a second Toughness)
Nothing really worthwhile in Paladin 13 or Monk 8 for this build

Cons (as opposed to Rogue):
Lose 1d6 sneak attack (Actually, you lose 1d6+3, as rogue Sneak Attack Training 1 gives +3 damage to sneak attack for one enhancement point.)
Lose UMD as a class skill
Lose trap smithing/lock picking skills (which I wouldn't have been able to keep up in my Paladin levels with an 8 Int)

The build listed in the first post will have 17 BAB at level 20 with longswords. With the way attack bonus is implemented in DDO, the only difference you will see between 17 and 20 is a minute (only noticeable when measured out amongst hundreds of swings) difference in attack speed. There's no "extra swing" like you would see in PnP. As for the actual hit bonus itself, you'll be able to keep Divine Favor running all the time. That, not to mention the attack bonus from sovereign host enhancements, weapon focus feat, and other buffs taken into consideration means that you'll have no problem hitting at high levels.

That said, if you don't want the extra damage or skills from rogue, and would rather have 23 more HP from toughness, go for it.

[SolarDawning]

It's just been brought to my attention that healing enhancements such as Paladin Devotion may stack additively with item effects such as Devotion or Ardor, and not multiplicatively as I had assumed. If so, I'll need to redo my healing ki calculations in the initial post, and they'll end up a bit lower.

Can anyone else confirm this?

[LunaCee]

Formula for spell damage (and healing does count as damage, only in reverse in this game) is base value + (base value * modifier) + (base value * modifier) + ... you get the idea.

Therefore given a base of 30 positive energy for example modified by a superior ardor pot and a 4th rank devotion enhancement...

30 + (30 * .75) + (30 * .40)
30 + 22.5 + 12
64

Even if you add maximize and empower to that its still much the same kind of setup.

30 + (30 * .75) + (30 * .40) + (30 * 1) + (30 * .5)
30 + 22.5 + 12 + 30 + 15
109

Hope that answers your question, yes it would be additive unless for paladins its different from the same calculations used for all other arcane and divine casters.

[SolarDawning]

Formula for spell damage (and healing does count as damage, only in reverse in this game) is base value + (base value * modifier) + (base value * modifier) + ... you get the idea.

Therefore given a base of 30 positive energy for example modified by a superior ardor pot and a 4th rank devotion enhancement...

30 + (30 * .75) + (30 * .40)
30 + 22.5 + 12
64

Even if you add maximize and empower to that its still much the same kind of setup.

30 + (30 * .75) + (30 * .40) + (30 * 1) + (30 * .5)
30 + 22.5 + 12 + 30 + 15
109

Hope that answers your question, yes it would be additive unless for paladins its different from the same calculations used for all other arcane and divine casters.

Thank you, fixed the calculation in the initial build post.

[sirgog]

Formula for spell damage (and healing does count as damage, only in reverse in this game) is base value + (base value * modifier) + (base value * modifier) + ... you get the idea.

Therefore given a base of 30 positive energy for example modified by a superior ardor pot and a 4th rank devotion enhancement...

30 + (30 * .75) + (30 * .40)
30 + 22.5 + 12
64

Even if you add maximize and empower to that its still much the same kind of setup.

30 + (30 * .75) + (30 * .40) + (30 * 1) + (30 * .5)
30 + 22.5 + 12 + 30 + 15
109

Hope that answers your question, yes it would be additive unless for paladins its different from the same calculations used for all other arcane and divine casters.

Metamagics don't stack that way.

Stacking on healing and damage is as follows:

Firstly, the best item stacks additively with the best enhancement (100% + 75% Ardor + 40% Enhancement)

Secondly, metamagics stack additively with each other, although this isn't important here (Max-Emp = 250%)

Thirdly, the 'metamagic' factor stacks multiplicatively with the item/enhancement factor.

Example: My Clr18/Ftr2's Heal spell hits for 150 base. Assuming no Ardor clicky active (so just Sup Pot 6):

Enhancement/item factor: +40% Cleric Life Magic 4, +50% Sup Pot 6 = x1.9
Metamagic factor: +50% Empower Healing = x1.5
Predicted healing amount: 150 x 1.9 x 1.5 = 427.5
Observed healing amount (on myself, I wear no Healing Amp) - 427.

[Valakai]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.32
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(8 Paladin \ 12 Monk) 
Hit Points: 283
Spell Points: 72 
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 18
Will: 16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    21
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         12                    12
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               10                    12
Charisma             14                    17

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    24
Bluff                 2                     3
Concentration         5                    25
Diplomacy             2                     3
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     3
Heal                  0                     1
Hide                  3                     3
Intimidate            2                     3
Jump                  3                     6
Listen                0                     1
Move Silently         3                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  0                     1
Swim                  3                     5
Tumble                4                     4
Use Magic Device      3                    13.5

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Human Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Luck of Heroes


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 8 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)


Level 16 (Monk)


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion III
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I

How do you think a paladin 8/monk 12 variant would work? Been toying with this idea for a bit after I heard the LS could be used while centered. Only have the 32 pointer too.
Do metas work with the monk finishers. Like if I had maximise would that be of any use there? Oh and the enhancements are easy to maneuver. Forgot to add hunter of the dead there for example...
First idea was to go Kensai I and Ninja Spy2...

[xEthreal]

I have been thinking about this build and i was wondering how a 14pally/6monk build would work.

You would have access to the holy sword ability so you would not necessarily need MinII's and you could focus your resources on the Tiple positive Longswords.

[LunaCee]

Meta-magic doesn't work with ki finishers... at least not anymore.

And you only need ONE triple positive LS... because you can only have a single gear source of any given X% of healing amplification. Two 30% heal amp weapons is the same as having one... except you spent the resources for two of them.

As for the 12/8 monkadin... well... dunno. I'd wait until we know more about Shintao II before seriously planning it.

And the 14/6 pally with monk splash would lose the 2nd tier of monk heal amp.

[Valakai]

Thanks for the info. Got to wait and see I guess. Have quite a few ideas I would like to try out with the new monk chances...mutts mostly.

[Jamma]

Healing Ki:
10d4 = 25 average.
+40% Paladin Devotion IV = 35
+75% Superior Ardor 1 potion = 53.75
53.75 multiplied by 4.01 = 215.5 average healing.

I didn't think Devotion and Ardor stacked with each other.

[DemonMage]

Enhancement + item always stack for spells.

[dkyle]

And the 14/6 pally with monk splash would lose the 2nd tier of monk heal amp.

So 10% less healing, but a little less than 10% more damage (Zeal vs 1d6 SA; pretty sure Zeal wins), and free raid weapons (Holy Sword). Seems like a good tradeoff to me. Now if only LR+3 wasn't so expensive, I'd consider respecing my Pali when update 5 comes out. Of course, if I TR him, that's 5% healing amp...

[Valakai]

I thought the the ki healing was supposed to be based on monk levels not character levels? Hope that is working as intended because if they "fix" that your healing from ki will be hit pretty awful.