For the love of all that is Holy

[Rydin_Dirtay]

I've been looking for some alternative on AH, but the only other Moderate Fort items I see are belts -- and the belt she now wears as a matter of course is vital -- Poison Proof.

You can unpoison yourself with a Pot, Scroll, or by Ranger11, spell. But you cannot un-crit yourself.

Also, once you are poisoned, you can put on your Proof item, and when the save is called for, your item will kick in, and your poison is instantly gone.

One thing I do is, if I am in an area where I know I might get poisoned (spiders, scorps, trap, etc.) then I put on the Proof item. But I would NEVER ever take off my Fort item for a Proof Against Poison item!! Fort is way more important.

As Rangers we can take care of ourselves with Poison. But we NEED the Fortification far far far more.

BTW, if I am wrong about not being any ML 10 Heavy Fort items, I would love to know that!

There are ML8 Robes of Heavy Fort, but I'd use a Mod Fort belt until level 11. Generally Robes wouldn't be useful to us unless our DEX gets past the mid 20's range.

Just watch your back until you do get Heavy Fort at 11. When you see that Troll or Ogre winding up for the massive bash, do a quick tumble back, then slice him into ribbons. Take advantage of your Ranger spring attack!!

[Glenalth]

Kiting is fine. It is a great way to mitigate incoming damage, especially against large groups of nasty monsters. With ranged combat being so underpowered in this game these strategies were not often practiced since simply showing up at a quest with a bow equipped was enough to get dropped from a group. With the huge influx of Arcane Archers to the game, this is starting to change.

The biggest issue is that the people kiting are not communicating with the rest of the party as to what they are doing or even if it is needed . A simple plan of attack can change this strategy from failure to gold or eliminate it entirely when not needed.

Granted some archers still need to just die in a fire and can't/don't contribute in any meaningful way; while this is true of some examples of every class it is especially prevalent in archers even those made by veteran players.


And yes, get Heavy Fortification as soon as you can. Minos Legens at 11 for you VIPs/Premiums, Nightforge Gorget at 9-10 for you free-to-plays, random Mod Fort item at 7 for you robots. Both of the short grinds for static items have the bonus of tons of XP. It's a win-win. I won't complain when you get one-shot killed by an enemy, but I will laugh.

[JollySwagMan]

On the kiting issue, you can simply tumble forward towards your party melees chasing the critter.

[Havenor]

I don't mind if a ranger in my group wants to twang his thang at mobs all day long, but dammit if you draw aggro and make me chase while you kite, I will watch you die and leave your stone where it falls. I've played at least a dozen different mmo's, and the rule has always been, if you're not the melee/tank and you get aggro, stand still so it can be easily peeled off you. Clerics/shamans/healers/mages/wizards/eldritch/etc the rule was standard. I have an AA myself but I always find room in my inventory for 2 sharp swords in case I draw aggro and have to actually pretend I'm a fighting class for a few seconds.

[GhoulsTouch]

On the kiting issue, you can simply tumble forward towards your party melees chasing the critter.

I mean if you have to lol...
Kiting is a good technique if used properly, like through a blade barrier. There are other instances too, but if you are doing it just to be doing it...yeah I'd rather sit back and laugh at the show then do the Benny Hill. Unless of course the enemy can kill you in the next swing or two, then I don't blame you. Runn Forrresst, Runnn!

[Tharum_Ironblood]

The biggest issue is that the people kiting are not communicating with the rest of the party as to what they are doing or even if it is needed . A simple plan of attack can change this strategy from failure to gold or eliminate it entirely when not needed.

Granted some archers still need to just die in a fire and can't/don't contribute in any meaningful way; while this is true of some examples of every class it is especially prevalent in archers even those made by veteran players.

Here, here

The Rangers in our guild kill what they kite, if they bring it back and do circle straff work on the tanks, it was a tactical move to help shed aggro. Maybe I just got the luxury of running with some very good rangers or ... nope I just gots the luxury.

Talk to your group rangers, and those people that have the greatest-just-ask-me builds, talk to your Rangers, dont flame them cause the mind reading has failed...again.

If I am running a raid outside guild I will talk to the guys and things usually turn out OK. Unless Niko's in your party.J/K

This all of course is IMO so I am sure the Harriet hate will now commence....

Harriet
Mistem
Gatto
Myf

Hand of the black tower.

Home of the Hand Hide'N'Seek, sellable loot thats easy to come by :P

[LordPiglet]

Exactly! More and more of them around... Not to mention that quite a few times in pugs I've seen them aggro anything they can shoot at... Then I end up... YET Again trying to explain Aggro Management...

My tempest would love Flaming Burst added to his Holy Burst/Icy Burst longbow of PG ;p

It took me a while to figure out how to turn of precise shot, but I know one AA who will pull aggro from the kiter in Shroud part 5 everytime by not turning it off.

[brian14]

You can get the adamantine ore from Relic of a Sovereign Past by running the quest solo on casual at level 9. Thus you don't have to worry about people taking ore if you were planning to split evenly.

This quest is full of Duergar (evil dwarves), earth/fire elementals, and if you are completing the quest several metal dogs and blackguards (tough melees who may have vorpals).

You don't have to complete the quest. Enter, sneak/fight your way across the right side of the central area till you get to the doorway opened by levers, then progress along that hallway by clearing one room at a time while you look for the chest containing a key.

With the key, head back to the central room, head back the way you came till you get to the locked door. This is the passageway that has adamantine ore lying around, a mini-boss fight and the smith at the end. Go ahead and kill everything. If you have evasion, I quite like pulling dwarves to the explosive barrels. There should be at least 13 ore along the way to the room at the end. You need 10 to make the Heavy Fort necklace, so you can skip one of the side rooms if you need to conserve resources. In the end room you can pull a couple of the enemies individually back to the tunnel if you don't have crowd-control. Clear the end room (don't worry about the 2 enemies at the top of platforms, they don't bother you unless you go up to them). Talk to the smith, ask him to forge an accessory for you, select the Nightforge Gorget. Once you have the necklace, go ahead and recall.

Thank you for the advice, accomplished!

I wonder however about how much better Minos Legens is then other tap rewards. Obviously if you do not already have heavy fort it is invaluable, but if you have it (Nightgorget or something else), then just Toughness Feat does not seem all that great -- unless you are a tank. When I collect 20 taps, I think I will take the helm with +4 Wisdom and +4 Reflex -- looks more useful for a ranger, while for a cleric it should be a no-brainer.

Now that I think of it, Toughness Feat should be very good for a squishy -- wizard, sorc or rogue. Still think that ranger or cleric benefits more from wisdom and reflex boost.

[Silvershaper]

Thank you for the advice, accomplished!

I wonder however about how much better Minos Legens is then other tap rewards. Obviously if you do not already have heavy fort it is invaluable, but if you have it (Nightgorget or something else), then just Toughness Feat does not seem all that great -- unless you are a tank. When I collect 20 taps, I think I will take the helm with +4 Wisdom and +4 Reflex -- looks more useful for a ranger, while for a cleric it should be a no-brainer.

Now that I think of it, Toughness Feat should be very good for a squishy -- wizard, sorc or rogue. Still think that ranger or cleric benefits more from wisdom and reflex boost.

Don't - it's very easy to get a +6 wisdom item a few lvls later, which will make your hard earned +4 wisdom/+4 reflex helm almost worthless. The Minos helm on the other hand, you can use till lvl 20, or when you craft a better shroud hp minII helm. Your reflex saves as a ranger shouldn't need the extra attention either.

[johnnyputrid]

I wonder however about how much better Minos Legens is then other tap rewards. Obviously if you do not already have heavy fort it is invaluable, but if you have it (Nightgorget or something else), then just Toughness Feat does not seem all that great -- unless you are a tank. When I collect 20 taps, I think I will take the helm with +4 Wisdom and +4 Reflex -- looks more useful for a ranger, while for a cleric it should be a no-brainer.

Now that I think of it, Toughness Feat should be very good for a squishy -- wizard, sorc or rogue. Still think that ranger or cleric benefits more from wisdom and reflex boost.

The Minos Legens doesn't give you the Toughness feat - it grants an effect called 'Toughness', which is 20 extra hit points that stack with pretty much everything. One helmet gives you heavy fort and 20 hit points - this is why it is the most worn helmet in the game. The other helms are useful as well, but the Minos is simply far more attractive for just about any character class. Every class from bard to wizard can benefit greatly from the Minos helm.

For rangers, especially Tempest rangers who are constantly on the front lines, the Minos gives them a substantial hit point boost that they need, especially considering that they have no class Toughness enhancements. And some rangers may not be able to squeeze in the Toughness feat until later in their careers due to the feat requirements for the Tempest PrE. As for clerics, again Minos is a great helmet. Heavy fort and 20 extra hps helps the healer stay alive long enough to heal or cast offensive spells. Wisdom is readily available on other items like rings and necklaces.

[Calebro]

I was in An Offering of Blood earlier and thought of this thread.

First room: The entire party is standing in a group and simply watching as the Ranger kites the scorpion around in circles. We're also watching as said Ranger's blue bar drops lower and lower, around and around.

Me: "Just so you know, all the mobs in here will start to respawn everywhere as soon as we kill that thing, so no kiting named mobs around after this, ok? In the time it takes you to kill that thing all the rest of the dungeon will have respawned already. Take your time killing him.... we'll wait. But no more kiting after this, OK?"

[BalanceFx]

Please, PLease, PLEase, PLEAse, PLEASE stop kiting as an arcane archer......ESPECIALLY MOBS THAT HAVE TO BE KILLED TO ADVANCE THE QUEST.

I play an arcane archer, they are fun, I get it, BUT, when you aggro something and then run around the room frantically it ANNOYS the rest of the party and gives ALL arcane archers (actually anyone who EVER pulls out a bow) a bad rep.

Rangers, be they Tempest or Arcane Archers get the TWF feats FOR FREE and if you are an arcane archer with a high dex, you can/will achieve the same or near the same AC, so MELEE and PUT THE BOW AWAY.

This has been hashed and re-hashed, then re-trampled and hashed again, I know....but still, the situation seems to be getting worse, not better.

To recap, if you aggro it, you kill it and if you need help killing it, STOP RUNNING AROUND LIKE A CHICKEN WITHOUT A HEAD.

Kiting works great if you are SOLOING, when you are by yourself, have fun, do whatever you want, however you want, but in a group, there is an inate responsibility to at least TRY to keep in mind there are 5 or 11 other players involved.

/Rant off

OH and HEAVY FORT, find it, buy it or steal it.....but you have to have it to survive in the mid to high level content in this game, if I am healing and I see you getting one shotted because of not having it, you will most likely get to ride in my backpack for a little while.

Heavy fort can be attained at level 11.

Kiting... If you dont want a creature being kited then intimidate it, trip it, sound blast, hold monster, get a paralyzer or switch to a ranged weapon. Drop a firewall or BB or Acid fog to strafe it through... throw down a web or solid fog to tie it up and let the melees close.

Fascinate it. Throw out a hypno or dancing ball.

Contrary to popular belief many builds do not rely on having enough hps to let melees beat on something to pull aggro. They rely on not being hit. It saves healing, prevents dying and all the expense of waiting a few seconds for a mob to die. hee hee.

Of course there are bad kiters. I know as an arcane archer I would switch to my para bow if kiting was bothering someone. (Which happened a few times in low level quests like red willow and stormcleave.) Higher levels people tend to get their act together. I have a level 10 FVS right now and the difference in questing groups is astounding. Goto a F2P common quest and my FVS can spend 800 mana in the first 4 mins of a quest trying to keep people up. Goto Giant hold run Feast or famine hard with a group of levels 10-13 and they don't even really need a healer. Everything was stunned, paralyzed, writhing in webs or running in terror. (Great arcane archer using terror arrows in the group with a parabow) The barb and fighter dominated the kill count soundly. The bard gave out songs and used fascinate and stun quite effectively. All in all a great romp and my first GH quest with this character. The ranger we had doubled as the rogue and snagged all the traps. (Nice little bump in XP)

I think level 10 characters though are like teenagers in this game. They cant really play with all their fun EQ til they hit 11 hehe. (13 is big too)

I have never had an issue with kiters though. Zergers sure. In reclamation first room with a wheel with little glass vases... there is some bug where the dwarves at the bottom cant climb up and get ya. So you can FW them from above. (Provided the crazy scouts dont cut you to ribbons.) So the Mage runs in with displacement and stoneskin and drops the firewall and then comes out. Our two melees sensing they will be out killed by the mage promptly jump off the cliff to melee these dwarves without featherfall rather then allow the Firewall to kill them. Scouts from all angles take aim at the crazy pair melee fighters who are now hobbled from the fall. The overseer dude turns on heel, Crit, Crit, Crit, Crit... He was angry at having died in the last 99 quests where he never got to see anything except a burning wall of fire and was forced to stand weapon in hand burning to death as his crazy AI prevented him from doing anything else useful.

Although there was a kiter in that quest hehe... so He manyshots a dwarf and starts running in circles just outside that first room. Circle strafe, circle strafe and then.... ACK he falls of the cliff. Now there is water down there but if you are very talented you can miss the water and hit the cliff without FF. (Taking a healthy chunk of life away and then swan dive into the water.)

Now the wise thing to do I guess would be to stay put and have the whole party jump down and just work from the bottom up. Nah... Lets run through everything and get back to the main party. He even brought a named rusty and an entourage of 12 dwarves and a fi****l of iron defenders to greet a party already engaged in combat. In addition we learned about something called Dungeon alert Red and some odd time warp effect called Harried. Was a lot of fun.

[Calebro]

Contrary to popular belief many builds do not rely on having enough hps to let melees beat on something to pull aggro. They rely on not being hit. It saves healing, prevents dying and all the expense of waiting a few seconds for a mob to die. hee hee.

That's where I stopped reading.

If you don't have the HP to handle aggro, then you do NOT attack first. You wait until someone else has attacked, just like if you were playing a rogue.
I should spend all my mana trying to CC and DoT a mob that's chasing you when it shouldn't BE chasing you to begin with?
I don't think so.

[BalanceFx]

That's where I stopped reading.

If you don't have the HP to handle aggro, then you do NOT attack first. You wait until someone else has attacked, just like if you were playing a rogue.
I should spend all my mana trying to CC and DoT a mob that's chasing you when it shouldn't BE chasing you to begin with?
I don't think so.

HPs to handle the aggro? So mages shouldnt Firewall? (They will invariably attack many many things they dont have the hps to handle)

Hee hee. The best defense is not to get hit.

[Glenalth]

Although there was a kiter in that quest hehe... so He manyshots a dwarf and starts running in circles just outside that first room. Circle strafe, circle strafe and then.... ACK he falls of the cliff. Now there is water down there but if you are very talented you can miss the water and hit the cliff without FF. (Taking a healthy chunk of life away and then swan dive into the water.)

Now the wise thing to do I guess would be to stay put and have the whole party jump down and just work from the bottom up. Nah... Lets run through everything and get back to the main party. He even brought a named rusty and an entourage of 12 dwarves and a fi****l of iron defenders to greet a party already engaged in combat. In addition we learned about something called Dungeon alert Red and some odd time warp effect called Harried. Was a lot of fun.

Best story ever.

[Beld]

Altho, I have come to the conclusion that for my sanity, I am just not going to chase you or your aggro....not gonna shoot at it either, if you can't manage aggro, then you are going to die.

My blood pressure and ulcers are rejoicing at this as I have decided I will adopt the tried and true method (at least in the Lethal Weapons movies) that I don't give a ****.

All my builds don't have intim, trip is not 100% and if you are going to shoot at it, you should be able to kill it.

Nightforge Gorget is heavy fort available at level 9, and there are some docents/robes/outfits that have it at level 8 with some RR items available at level 6.

You will have a resist item for +4 to all saves that +4 reflex won't stack with and wis +6 items are a dime a dozen at higher levels, which will make your wis/reflex helm obsolete almost immediately, whereas minos is the gift that keeps on giving as it is usable all the way to lvl 20.

Note: I take the intim helm on my intimitank builds, but those are WF and I have full fort at level 6 with a mod fort item anyway and they are usually not hurting for HP.

[Calebro]

HPs to handle the aggro? So mages shouldnt Firewall? (They will invariably attack many many things they dont have the hps to handle)

Hee hee. The best defense is not to get hit.

That mage is kiting in a small area doing massive damage to many targets, and he's doing it while stoneskinned and displaced, taking very little damage.

The archer is kiting a single mob in around huge area so no one else can hurt it, doing craptastic damage I could count on one hand, wearing studded leather and taking more of a beating than he's dishing out.

The best defense certainly is not getting hit. But don't expect the same techniques that serve you well while running solo will be effective in a group.
If you want to kite, catch up with us when he's dead. We'll be at the end chest getting our loot.

[Beld]

HPs to handle the aggro? So mages shouldnt Firewall? (They will invariably attack many many things they dont have the hps to handle)

Hee hee. The best defense is not to get hit.

A firewall kiter is kiting in a very confined area, and if done even halfway decently, melee can stand in the firewall and whack the mobs as they chase. Mages also can stoneskin/blur/displace themselves for dmg mitigation, most ranged kiters with their 100 HP and paper AC don't have that luxury.

[Calebro]

A firewall kiter is kiting in a very confined area, and if done even halfway decently, melee can stand in the firewall and whack the mobs as they chase. Mages also can stoneskin/blur/displace themselves for dmg mitigation, most ranged kiters with their 100 HP and paper AC don't have that luxury.

Great minds and all that

[BalanceFx]

A firewall kiter is kiting in a very confined area, and if done even halfway decently, melee can stand in the firewall and whack the mobs as they chase. Mages also can stoneskin/blur/displace themselves for dmg mitigation, most ranged kiters with their 100 HP and paper AC don't have that luxury.

I guess it depends on how you build your ranger. I have never been able to make a pure ranger. My ranger can blur, displace and stoneskin. He can also heal, raise dead, cast heroes feast, greater heroism, he has divine power clickies and etc etc. He can also rogue it up when needed. Of course hes capped at 20 now and I know not all rangers have the same gear. But soon I will true reincarnate and try it all over. Once I get my GS bow finished.

Most rangers are only kiting something in circles because Manyshot is recharging. So yes they do need to know how to play and have the right gear. A pure ranger could still have permablur and could have a stoneskin clicky. They dont have to have paper AC (Icy etc) They could be an exploiter build... I mean AC is just not that important on a ranged ranger anyways esp if he only has 100 hps. lol. He shouldnt be getting hit.

To me it sounds like you just dont like the new swarm of new players who frankly dont have the gear nor the experience to play a proper ranged character. (Nor do they probably have the best build)

But if thats what your annoyed with then why pick on kiting. MyDDO the guy and give him some advice and pointers.