1 Sorcerer/2 Rogue/17 Palladin - rate my build :)

[Phidius]

Okay I gotcha, simplistic. That's whats up with the splash builds.

Do you think a true specialist is more what the op is looking for though? Maybe 12 ranger, 5 rogue, 3 bard?

I think the Op is looking for a paladin...

[Cyr]

Agree with most, except the 1 year thing is a little arbitrary, some new(er) people know more about some specific class than some older ones...

One year is mostly just a safety factor. There is no harm if the OP overscreens when it comes to reading advice, but underscreening they will hear all sorts of contradictory information from those who really shouldn't be giving advice.

[GhoulsTouch]

I think the Op is looking for a paladin...

But his criteria was flank,dps,and the ability to cast more as well as utilizing UMD.
I know ranger can get you tempest (bonuses of TWF,ITWF,GITWF), rogue can get you that sneak attack bonus with evasion early, and bard would be able to get you some extra casting power. Only the ranger would need to cross class UMD, but all have enough skill points to keep things interesting. Being a halfling as well seems better suited.

And no, never played a pally. I keep my hands to myself. The only time I go lawful is when I take monk.

This is a discussion board...right?

[Gercho]

But his criteria was flank,dps,and the ability to cast more as well as utilizing UMD.
I know all ranger can get you tempest, rogue can get you that sneak attack bonus, and bard would be able to get you some extra casting power. Only the ranger would need to cross class UMD.

Well, his criteria was high saves too, i guess thats why he went paladin... for both paladin and ranger twf would be better than thf anyway...

[Phidius]

...
And no, never played a pally. I keep my hands to myself. The only time I go lawful is when I take monk.

I normally refrain from offering advice on a class I've never played. Not that it keeps me from making mistakes in my advice, but it sure slows me down.

[GhoulsTouch]

I normally refrain from offering advice on a class I've never played. Not that it keeps me from making mistakes in my advice, but it sure slows me down.

This is a discussion board...not an instruction manual. I was posting ideas, don't mind them getting shot down, but people dont need to be jerks about it.

So I was heading somewhere, hit a brick wall, but it gave me an insight into looking into a specialist build.

[Gercho]

This is a discussion board...not an instruction manual. I was posing ideas, don't mind them getting shot down, but people dont need to be jerks about it.

Discussing about something that you dont know is also know as Trolling.

And the op was asking for advice, good manners would lead me to avoid giving advice about something i dont know...

[GhoulsTouch]

Discussing about something that you dont know is also know as Trolling.

And the op was asking for advice, good manners would lead me to avoid giving advice about something i dont know...

You can brainstorm. Sorry your eliteness...didn't know you took posting so seriously. Forgive me for breathing the same air.

[SisAmethyst]

Some of the skill point above are actually misleading ... all my skill points (2 per lvl ) go into UMD and diplo, so I'm not sinking them into the other skill areas.

Ohh yes I know, 2 Skill Points are awesome less (please gimme more points!!!). But when you say only UMD and diplo, then take care. For example in Vault Of the Night part 3 there is a Shrine in a place where you afterwards have to jump up. Even players in a robe have sometimes difficulties to come back up again, and unfortunately that is not the only place. Also tumble should not be slightly dropped. Not only it prevent fall damage, but as well tumbling through swamp is faster then walking through and if something bad happen, I prefer to block and tumble e.g. back in a doorway.

Finally some people here asked WHY UMD?

Well, it is not only for the heal scrolls (to be honest on my Paladin I mostly use the greater heal wands which do fine so far) but several nice items have some race or alignment restrictions. That does not need to be one of that uber raid loot item, but even a feather fall item that you pulled out of a chest. yes, you CAN buy those things in the AH, but especialy new players not have a bank full with gear for other twinks, nor the money to buy it from the AH!

Honestly I take dragon marks only cause I'm curious - I have a dragon mark of each type on various chars, and I find they make builds more intersting - not really a power based thing. The healing dragon mark does offer the HEAL spell for nothing 5 times per rest and much earlier than usually available which is quite good imo

Hehe, I even hear a lot of people saying they take it for the look Anyway, I know a 'heal' is very nice and the 4th level Paladin spell 'Cure Light wounds' can not really compete against that. However if I remember the early levels I never really had healing issues. There where always tons of heal pots in the barrels I smashed, I always tryed to take care that my gear is up to date (e.g. not have 2 items that give the same bonus but then swap with another). Fortification, Dodge and/or Resist items all help to mitigate damage. Or last but not least the mobs died faster then they could harm me anyway. The faster a mob die, the less damage it can do to you or others which mean you need less healing.
Anyway, if you (and in my opinion you should) take the THF feats, Power Attack and Toughness, maybe Improved Critical and Skill focus UMD then there is not much left for any other Feat, as a Paladin only get them every 3 levels.

For damage - right now I'm finding I hit OK with a two hander, but can see this changing as I increase in levels. Might nerf the build enough to drop the marks and take thf instead.

Right now is actualy at which level? I guess GiantHold at level 10 may proove if your Character may survive till level 20. Also if you ever played a Barbarian you suddenly notice the difference between hitting ok and realy doing so Not that I mean that you should start a Barbarian, but it is difficult to say from oneself if you hit ok if there is less data to compare with. Also my first Paladin looked to 'hit ok', and the 'to hit' was really not that big problem, but the point was that I needed to hit too often as the damage output itself was below all means. If you then have an Oggre infront of you that swing his big club and really do some decent damage it gets important to get him down fast.

I avoided TWF only because I have 3 chars already down that line and didn't want to end up with a familiar fight style. The build is very point intensive and bumping dex up to 17 would bring cha or str down too much (imo).

Well, I realy enjoy THF and the effect of glancing blows. The ranger may kill that single mob maybe faster then me, but if there is more then one mob that try to surround him it gets hot

Diplo is the fastest way to enable sneak attacks I've found ... I have a caster that uses diplo for anti-aggro...We'll see.

I have a caster myself but I still feel uncomfortable with diplo. Usualy I either try to web or hold the mob or I just block and tumble through my firewalls till the roastbeef is well done
The problem with diplo is that there need to be something else that the mob can concentrate on. As soon as you solo a Quest usualy only bluff may help you to see the back of the mob. But it sounds you are quite more confident and familiar with diplo then me. Also not on my pure Rogue I had played, I never considered to take diplo to get another sneak attack (even before I got a paralyzer for my off hand), but that is just me.

All in all I was actually really suprised by how much fun I've had with this build (so far) and wanted to know why it's working so much better than my other builds. It's more survivable, dishes out damage faster and has access to more spells than anything I've made (noob yeah ) - so I guess the question really is: Do you see this build being pretty useless at higher levels - and if so - what can I do to make it more viable?

Well, I will be carefull and not judge that build to be 'pretty useless' at higher levels, but the early levels are realy quite forgiving. I know that some builds are realy fun to play, but often there is an awesome awakening. That awakening may come around the time when you hit content like Gianthold (which is just an example). Some of the content is more a matter of the right items (e.g. poison and blindness immunity) but around level 10-14 the things show up that realy look if your character itself is solid. That even factor in player skill, but even a skilled player feels more easy with a solid build then a build that is always close to the edge

Survivability is always nice and Paladins can be great in that Element, but as others said, for example the level of Sorcerer not really add that much to it in the later levels but limit you in other places (e.g. you loose a base attack bonus). Indeed the Sorc may give more spell points but people already tried to combine cleric with sorc before the favoured souls came out but usualy the rule came up to never mix an arcane caster with divine.

The spells, well, 'Niacs Cold Ray' is a one shot in low levels but as you will not improve in Sorc or Wizard Levels and probably use a 2handed Weapon instead of a Scepter the mobs will just plain ignore your spells in later levels. For Spells like 'Expeditious Retreat' or 'Detect Secret Doors' there are plenty of wands and items with clickies on them that do the job perfectly, sometimes even better then with only one Level of Sorc (e.g. 5th level Jump). Even spells with no saves like 'magic missle' will just be eaten by the damage reduction of the mob. So all in all what looks nice in low levels have no more use in later levels.

[jypes77]

Wow away for 3 days and heaps of comments - thanks one and all for input.

I'll clarify some of my changes and the current state of the char.

agreed, paladins simply can't spare the feats for dragonmarks.

I partially agree with dropping the sorc level but for myself I would say lesser reincarnate +1 out of the level when you get above level 14ish. That 1 sorc level can be fun even with only a couple spells.

EDIT: looking at it again... drop the sorc level ASAP... does nothing for you that you can't get from potions or clickies.

Everyone seems to agree it's best to drop the level of sorc - what do you mean by lesser reincarnate +1? I have yet to reincarnate any character so not too familiar with it.

THF style is fine, but if you care about your DPS output (which you should) taking all 3 feats of the chain is a must.

Very true, and have since dropped the dragon mark in favour of the THF chain - working like a charm for little loss.

D) Thinking That Diplo Will Be Needed On This Toon. You Will Not Be Doing Anywhere Near Enough Dps To Worry About Turning A Mob Around.

Why the caps lol? Now here my noobness might show - but currently I am indeed out DPS-ing most parties I run with, with the notable exception of twinked out uber-gamers (you know who you are. I mean, who has a bloodstone and +6 strength gear at lvl 6? Incidentally I am not twinked out - running with a +1 flaming burst greataxe, nothing awesome about that. So it's not my gear...)

Hence diplo is still useful... for now. This may change at later levels. Which brings me to:

Drop the Sorc level, its dead meat once you hit the dual-digit levels.

A common theme

My highest character is level 12, so I have no experience of what to expect above this level. Due to the overwhelming majority agreeing to drop the sorc level, I ran the numbers:

--------------
(18 Paladin / 2 Rogue) (17 Paladin / 2 Rogue / 1 Sorcerer)
Hit Points: 334 328
Spell Points: 205 420

BAB: 19/19/24/29/29 18/18/23/28/28
Fortitude: 21 20
Reflex: 21 20
Will: 18 20

--------------

Ok so on face value I don't see a major difference except for the gain of +1 to attack, +6 hitpoints and -215 spellpoints. Can someone please explain why the 2 rogue/18 paladin is so much better?

Except you can't evade in heavier armor.

Haha yes found this out the hard way - now running with mithral breastplate. Evasion is a key component.

Do you think a true specialist is more what the op is looking for though? Maybe 12 ranger, 5 rogue, 3 bard? Maybe even 5 bard/3 rogue depending if he wants to cast more then have that extra d6?

Interesting but so far away from this build that it becomes something else entirely - not really the idea Thanks anyway though.

But his criteria was flank,dps,and the ability to cast more as well as utilizing UMD.

Spot on. And to try and avoid making a vanilla character of which there are 1,000,001 out there.

For example in Vault Of the Night part 3 there is a Shrine in a place where you afterwards have to jump up.

Ah yes I know the place. Two things: first of all, yes you can get out of there without a high jump - jump right up against the RIGHT side of the wall - there is a spot you can stand on (although this is not obvious from the gfx) - we have run that quest a few times and everyone gets out of there without issue using this method, including the armour clad cleric. In addition, as a 1 sorc I have access to the jump skill and high strength. I have not had any issues with jumping, but if I run into this, I'll hope there's an arcane around to cast +30 Jump on me

Finally some people here asked WHY UMD?

Well, it is not only for the heal scrolls (to be honest on my Paladin I mostly use the greater heal wands which do fine so far) but several nice items have some race or alignment restrictions.

Yup you got it - I mean I bought my +1 flaming burst great axe for 1200 pp from the AH - a bargain. It has a racial restriction which I believe made the price low, but I can use it regardless due to UMD. The same goes for a variety of other gear - for instance the +4 AC bracers from Delera's - requires chaotic, but I can get round that (eventually anyway)

Right now is actualy at which level? I guess GiantHold at level 10 may proove if your Character may survive till level 20. Also if you ever played a Barbarian you suddenly notice the difference between hitting ok and realy doing so Not that I mean that you should start a Barbarian, but it is difficult to say from oneself if you hit ok if there is less data to compare with. Also my first Paladin looked to 'hit ok', and the 'to hit' was really not that big problem, but the point was that I needed to hit too often as the damage output itself was below all means. If you then have an Oggre infront of you that swing his big club and really do some decent damage it gets important to get him down fast.

This was at level 6 - I'm now level 8 and have dropped the marks in favour of THF - works much better . Gianthold at level 10 - yes that sounds good, but as a comparison I have run Gwylans and Tear Of Dhakaan on Elite at level 8 and out killed everybody in the party without dying once - does this indicate reasonable power at this level? I am looking forward to Gianthold as that will determine of the sorc level must go or not. Yes barbarians are sick, from what I see. Next char . Indeed hitting "ok" is kinda vague - but using smite (with extra uses) can cause some nice numbers - highest crit to date was 109, though mostly it's between 50 - 60, with normal hitting being between 20 - 30. How does this stack up at level 8? Rogue haste boost also increases dps to avoid head-getting-caved-in by troll/ogre clubs.

I have a caster myself but I still feel uncomfortable with diplo. Usualy I either try to web or hold the mob or I just block and tumble through my firewalls till the roastbeef is well done
The problem with diplo is that there need to be something else that the mob can concentrate on. As soon as you solo a Quest usualy only bluff may help you to see the back of the mob. But it sounds you are quite more confident and familiar with diplo then me. Also not on my pure Rogue I had played, I never considered to take diplo to get another sneak attack (even before I got a paralyzer for my off hand), but that is just me.

Then you'll probably REALLY hate me as I gleefully diplo all the aggro onto your squishy arcane . Seriously though, diplo was just for fun - I mean, no one uses it, I have several intimi builds, and imo bluff just plain sucks (the activation time makes it completely useless - also - single target?? Why?). Yes soloing brings my dps down a lot, but diplo does something that the other char based skills don't do - gets RID of aggro. Easy to gain, not so easy to drop. I like it so far - I know I can save myself with it (against most creeps anyway)

That awakening may come around the time when you hit content like Gianthold (which is just an example). Some of the content is more a matter of the right items (e.g. poison and blindness immunity) but around level 10-14 the things show up that realy look if your character itself is solid. That even factor in player skill, but even a skilled player feels more easy with a solid build then a build that is always close to the edge

Feeling a bit apprehensive! But seriously, you're right, I have no experience of Gianthold really, so this will be the big test and might be the point where I go "Oh so THAT'S why they said my build was nerfed!". At that point I might have to do the reincarnate thing if I want to keep him. Will post when I get there :P

Indeed the Sorc may give more spell points...

Yes that's the main reason, as well as access to powerful wands such as stoneskin at level, looong before the UMD is high enough. For spells I just take exp retreat (for mad zerging and running away from Trolls - see above) as well as jump, for now and then. It's not really about the spells.

Thanks all for the comments - they are really apprecaited and have already influenced my thinking in a good way.

For a final thought - this build was created for FUN play, not uber gaming. Don't expect my name to crop up in the "Most awesome DPS ever" 1337 gamers Hall Of Fame For Uberness charts - I mean honestly, what's the idea with all this performance obsession? It's a game after all right? I feel there should be more fun builds out there and less of this "Let's max this sucker out" attitude. That's fine for mad raid running, but the world of Stormreach would be much much poorer of it wasn't for freaks like me, who like to try something original (although this turned out to actually just be a nerfed build of something else apparently lol)

P.S. I also have a RANGED based ranger/rogue - let the flaming begin!

Don't forget to actually have fun playing this game - it is awesome.

[SisAmethyst]

As I am a bit in a hurry I will only answer to part of the questions:

Everyone seems to agree it's best to drop the level of sorc - what do you mean by lesser reincarnate +1? I have yet to reincarnate any character so not too familiar with it.

There are two NPC in House Jorasco that help you respec your character. One is the Mindflyer but he only let you swap Feats. The other Option is - if you have a Heart of Wood - to re-incarnate. The +1 or +3 on a Heart of Wood tell you how often you can additionaly swap out a Class. So a +1 let you change one Class choice you made previous. But beware, right now re-incarnation mean that you loose your look. It is like you re-level that character once again, right from the start at the character creation. So when you re-login you can click on a button to re-incarnate and you see your character creation screen once again. After that you land on a ship where you instantly can re-level. You still have all the XP, standing in front of a multi-trainer that let you make again all the choices for Feats, skill-points, Enhancements and so on.

... but currently I am indeed out DPS-ing most parties I run with, with the notable exception of twinked out uber-gamers ... running with a +1 flaming burst greataxe, nothing awesome about that.

Well, a flaming burst great axe at level 8 is also not always that common
But usualy all rogue splashes can do a lot of damage, an other reason why you splash Rogue.

Hence diplo is still useful... for now.

never said it is useless

Ah yes I know the place. Two things: first of all, yes you can get out of there without a high jump - jump right up against the RIGHT side of the wall - there is a spot you can stand on (although this is not obvious from the gfx) - we have run that quest a few times and everyone gets out of there without issue using this method, including the armour clad cleric. In addition, as a 1 sorc I have access to the jump skill and high strength. I have not had any issues with jumping, but if I run into this, I'll hope there's an arcane around to cast +30 Jump on me

Well, it was just an example to show that Jump is another important skill in this game and not always an other caster is around that can cast 'jump'

Yup you got it - I mean I bought my +1 flaming burst great axe for 1200 pp from the AH - a bargain. It has a racial restriction which I believe made the price low, but I can use it regardless due to UMD. The same goes for a variety of other gear - for instance the +4 AC bracers from Delera's - requires chaotic, but I can get round that (eventually anyway)

For allignment restrictions you only have to take care of Negative Levels.

Gianthold at level 10 - yes that sounds good, but as a comparison I have run Gwylans and Tear Of Dhakaan on Elite at level 8 and out killed everybody in the party without dying once - does this indicate reasonable power at this level?

Well, I would say it proves your self sufficience and Gwylans Stand is (if you know it) more or less easy Gianthold by the way is only an example, but the mobs there hit very hard but a Giant also has a lot of HP so it is crucial to get them down as soon as possible. Or the Lions (Bezherka) that like to trip you and then eat you alive. Further that Shamans that cast blur/displacement on themself and then glitterdust. And it get's hard then to hit that one.

Yes barbarians are sick, from what I see. Next char

Take care, all your chars may feel gimped after that try

Then you'll probably REALLY hate me as I gleefully diplo all the aggro onto your squishy arcane

Not really and being unfamiliar with it does not mean I have no points in diplo

For a final thought - this build was created for FUN play, not uber gaming...Don't forget to actually have fun playing this game - it is awesome.

Yes, that is the most importnat part, having fun

PS: No flamig, but I HATE ranged Rangers that kite the mobs while being in a close combat group. I usualy then just stop running after the mobs and go ahead. Either you finish a Quest with 0 kill counts and the Ranger has all and feel 'uber' or he get to the point that he aggrooed a bit more then he could handle and after that ride in the back pack. Either way is fine as long as I finish a Quest without to much trouble

[jypes77]

As I am a bit in a hurry I will only answer to part of the questions:

There are two NPC in House Jorasco that help you respec your character. One is the Mindflyer but he only let you swap Feats. The other Option is - if you have a Heart of Wood - to re-incarnate. The +1 or +3 on a Heart of Wood tell you how often you can additionaly swap out a Class. So a +1 let you change one Class choice you made previous. But beware, right now re-incarnation mean that you loose your look. It is like you re-level that character once again, right from the start at the character creation. So when you re-login you can click on a button to re-incarnate and you see your character creation screen once again. After that you land on a ship where you instantly can re-level. You still have all the XP, standing in front of a multi-trainer that let you make again all the choices for Feats, skill-points, Enhancements and so on.

Awesome thanks for that - one thing though - I've heard from some reincarnated chars that you have to earn much more xp to gain levels when you true incarnate - does this count for lesser reincarnation as well? I'm not too keen to have to grind like mad to level up....

As I am a bit in a hurry I will only answer to part of the questions:

PS: No flamig, but I HATE ranged Rangers that kite the mobs while being in a close combat group. I usualy then just stop running after the mobs and go ahead. Either you finish a Quest with 0 kill counts and the Ranger has all and feel 'uber' or he get to the point that he aggrooed a bit more then he could handle and after that ride in the back pack. Either way is fine as long as I finish a Quest without to much trouble

Ah yes couldn't agree more - I read a lot of forum entries on ranged based characters and found that was peeve #1 - my ranger I only play with a select group of friends and we are a lot more focused on adventuring. Even still, I grab my swords when the creeps close in

[r3dl4nce]

Ok so on face value I don't see a major difference except for the gain of +1 to attack, +6 hitpoints and -215 spellpoints. Can someone please explain why the 2 rogue/18 paladin is so much better?

+1 attack, well, you are a melee build, so to hit must be higher you can. And going 17 paladin you are losing tier III of the Paladin Prestige Enhancements, Knight of the Chalice III is very good.

Haha yes found this out the hard way - now running with mithral breastplate. Evasion is a key component.

After level 12-14, or you have *VERY HIGH* AC or you can go in robe

[SisAmethyst]

Ok so on face value I don't see a major difference except for the gain of +1 to attack, +6 hitpoints and -215 spellpoints. Can someone please explain why the 2 rogue/18 paladin is so much better?

I want to clarify one thing here. You gain one more level in BAB which is actualy not just plain +1 to attack!

If you take a look in the Compendium and look in the table of the BAB, you see for example that from level 5 to 6 you get an additional attack, and from 10 to 11 another one, and so forth. In other words if you multiclass to deep you may actualy loose additional attacks. Also for the glancing blows (someone may correct me here if I am wrong) the attack is rolled individualy. That mean you not only calculate the +1 on your primary attack but on all the others, let's name it 'side-effects'.

Additional to this if you look to level 20 of a 18/2 build you get an additional lvl 1 spell slot for memorizing spells.
Also the 3rd Prestige Enhancement line (DoS, HotD, KotC) is only available with level 18 Paladin which give you something like:

KotC: You are sworn to fighting demons, devils, and other evil outsiders, driving them from Eberron forever. Your maximum number of Smites is increased by one, your anti-fear aura is improved, and you have +4 to attack Evil Outsiders and deal 4d6 additional damage with melee and unarmed attacks against them. You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +4 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by Evil Outsiders.

Look it the other way around. If you would be a mage or sorc, then each level as well increase the mighty of your spells to resist them. Or in other words if your spell land and e.g. hold the mob or if the mob still runs at you.
But the opposite for the Figther count as well. You have to remember that for example one point more in Strength not only been calculcated for the 'to-hit' but as well for the damage (and that before any multiplier like for a critical count). So a +1 in 'to-hit' may be the difference between 0 or e.g. 40 damage, and thinking about the glancing blows it mean if the additional effects like paralize/vorpal/disintegrate/etc may happen or not. So it would be one-dimensional to say "it is just +1 in hit"

[PS: Some DDO gurus may correct me in the above terms, but it should just show the big picture]

But you are indeed right, you actualy 'loose' about 200 spell points. But another remark on that:

Resist the temptation to create a Jack of all trades!

A lot of people for example think they need to splash a rogue when they see the first chest in the Korthos Island Quest of the Necromancer behid a gate
So for the Paladin, you are mainly a Figther and for that your main job is to kill the Mob before it find the Caster and Healer more attractive then you. You MAY be able to buff yourself, but either you can use pods, wands or you are in a group with a caster that anyway already cast resist Energy onto you. Maybe even a stronger version of the spell you could cast anyway. So in the end you may not need that much mana except for your specials like 'Zeal'. That may sound hard in the lower levels where the mana pool of a Paladin is really not that great, but at later levels this issue mittigate.

Except of that : Always have fun with your build!

[SisAmethyst]

Awesome thanks for that - one thing though - I've heard from some reincarnated chars that you have to earn much more xp to gain levels when you true incarnate - does this count for lesser reincarnation as well? I'm not too keen to have to grind like mad to level up....

There are 3 main different versions of ReIncarnation:
1. Lesser ReIncarnation : let you respec your feats, skill points and enhancements
2. Greater ReIncarnation : same as (1) but additionaly let you upgrade the build (28pt -> 32pt)
3. True ReIncarnation : completly start with 0 XP once again, keep bank+inventory, +2 build points, +feat

For the 3rd one you have to really do all the quests and stuff again with a XP penalty but get an additional feat and 2 additonal build points at character creation.
For 1 and 2 you not have to do a single Quest again, you just keep your XP, you just re-spec all in a repetitive process like you would x-level times visit a trainer

Details can be found as well in the DDO Wiki

[jypes77]

I want to clarify one thing here. You gain one more level in BAB which is actualy not just plain +1 to attack!

So a +1 in 'to-hit' may be the difference between 0 or e.g. 40 damage, and thinking about the glancing blows it mean if the additional effects like paralize/vorpal/disintegrate/etc may happen or not. So it would be one-dimensional to say "it is just +1 in hit"

Ok that's making it clearer, thanks again. I have noticed though that a lot of other multiclass builds have an ending BaB of 18/*/*/*/* - which is what I end on - is this really an issue? I understand the +1 to attack may prove significant, but surely only if the monsters have an AC that is high enough to make this a problem... right? This stuff is making my head hurt - in any case I was wrong about spell DCs and a great post on the forum set me right, which made me restart my wf wizard as a drow, and boy did that make a difference...

Resist the temptation to create a Jack of all trades!

Oh yeah lol - I fell for that at the start. But honestly, this is not a jack of all trades build - it's pure dps, and the sorc level is there for flavour and added sp to utilise the pally spells more (especially at low levels) and to allow the use of arcane wands at level - which I've found nice as it gives access to certain wands long before umd gets high enough.

There are 3 main different versions of ReIncarnation:
1. Lesser ReIncarnation : let you respec your feats, skill points and enhancements
2. Greater ReIncarnation : same as (1) but additionaly let you upgrade the build (28pt -> 32pt)
3. True ReIncarnation : completly start with 0 XP once again, keep bank+inventory, +2 build points, +feat

For the 3rd one you have to really do all the quests and stuff again with a XP penalty but get an additional feat and 2 additonal build points at character creation.
For 1 and 2 you not have to do a single Quest again, you just keep your XP, you just re-spec all in a repetitive process like you would x-level times visit a trainer

Details can be found as well in the DDO Wiki

Brilliant thanks for that - very useful info and link

[jypes77]

Well as promised I'm reposting to update this thread. My char is now lvl 12 and I am running around in Gianthold putting it through the paces. Here's a link to my character page:

"Whabbit" sorcerer/rogue/paladin

I took most of the advice raised in this post - thanks all for your input (special thanks to SisAmethyst ). Dropped the dragonmark in favour of the THF feats, took Knight Of The Chalice as soon as I could and have been concentrating on HP and +attack rating.

I've found that he is performing quite well at this level and have not noticed any issues - DPS is still solid (for those nay-sayers who thought output would be too low to get aggro, believe me this is not the case! Diplomacy is still very useful when teamed up with a tank). The lack of spring attack is annoying and may have to changed later (feats may not allow). Not missing much, including those pesky glitterdust/displacement casters in GH.

The level of sorcerer is also still adding something to the build - specifically I find the extra SP means I can run with permanent expeditious retreat and devine blessing on, which makes a big difference to my to-hit and survivability (fast movement = fast escape). AC is not great but that was always expected. The addition of a Minos Legens and ring of greater false life means at 276 HP unbuffed I feel pretty survivable, and have been last man standing in quite a few quests. The saves are super high and very enjoyable at 23/22/25, meaning I rarely have to worry about holds/traps/fireballs etc.

A quick comparison in Character Planner shows dropping the level of sorc at this point would result in:

SP -205
HP +6
will save -2
Fort save +1
BAB +1

...which does not look appealing to me. The BAB is not affecting my to-hit and devine blessing more than makes up for the difficult fights. losing 205 SP however would greatly impede my self healing and constant use of devine blessing/resist energy and other spells.

The next point of decision will be at lvl 14 when I have the choice of reincarnating +1 to remove the lvl of sorc and get KotC one level earlier. Not convinced this is required at this point, but am definitely aiming for an 18/2 pally rogue build now that I have experience with the KotC goodness. It may just have to come at lvl 20...

Next post will be at lvl 14

Comments/feedback/criticism/trolling welcome

[shablala]

Resist the temptation to create a Jack of all trades!

LOL So a 18/2 Warforged Wiz/rogue is NOT an awesome Jack of all Trades? hmm, very nice spell dps, evasion, traps/locks, able to tank some raid bosses, is not enough?

18/1/1 Ranger tempest III /rogue/X is also another jack of all trades


To the original OP, Dragon marks of healing can either be INSANE, or VERY gimped. From my personal experience, these marks are best on a build that can also take Empower Healing, Empower and Maximize. Add to that Healing amplifications from enhancements/gear/potions and such, and you can be the envy of any Paladin bragging about their Lay on Hands. Also, these dragonmarks have a VERY nice bonus that many people do not know about, they allow you to use the said spell of the dragonmark from wands/scrolls without a UMD check. So a halfling wizard with the dragonmarks can actually use cure light/cure serious/Heal wands/scrolls.

[jypes77]

To the original OP, Dragon marks of healing can either be INSANE, or VERY gimped. From my personal experience, these marks are best on a build that can also take Empower Healing, Empower and Maximize. Add to that Healing amplifications from enhancements/gear/potions and such, and you can be the envy of any Paladin bragging about their Lay on Hands. Also, these dragonmarks have a VERY nice bonus that many people do not know about, they allow you to use the said spell of the dragonmark from wands/scrolls without a UMD check. So a halfling wizard with the dragonmarks can actually use cure light/cure serious/Heal wands/scrolls.

Hhmmmm this is VERY interesting.... I feel temptation to create yet another character hehe. Thanks for the info shablala - the UMD check is very interesting, especially for the heal scrolls on chars that cannot take UMD up high enough.

[lord_of_rage]

To comment on alot of things here.

I agree the 18 paladin 2 rogue is the way to go.

On stats you could back your dex to get your con to 14. All dex does for you at that point is give a bump to reflex saves and as a paladin your saves are great regardless. Force of personallity isnt needed on a paladin. You already have great saves. My humans who dump wis have a 28 to a 30 will save. You have LoH you really dont need the dragonmarks. Youll be able to throw scrolls at higher lvl anyway. I dont see power attack in your feat list. You really should pick it up. As a thf thats 10 dmg per swing. You also are not taking improved critical slashing. That hurts your weapons crit range. Thus really hurting dps.

You can use wands to heal low lvl and scrolls high lvl or build in self healing via hard to get items. The sorc lvl further hurts dps by losing 4d6 from KOTC. 1d6 from KOTC3 3d6 from the TOD KOTC set.

Typical feats for a thf 18 paladin 2 rogue build are something like this

THF
Toughness
Power attack
ITHF
IMP Crit slash
GHTF
extend.

If you really want a self healing build with dps I would set it up differently. But I dont want to confuse things here.

Jack of all trades builds are nice in some ways but you need to specialize to get the most out of your build.