1 Sorcerer/2 Rogue/17 Palladin - rate my build :)

[jypes77]

Hi all,

Total noob player here so probably so glaring mistakes in the build below. The idea behind it was purely fun but at low levels this has turned out to be very solid (compared to my other chars)

The idea here was to have high saves, be able to use most magic and deliver sneak attack based dps (in a party) by using diplomacy to turn creeps onto other players then mowing them down with a two-hander.

My questions are numerous - I see plenty of build here with crazy hp at lvl 20 - not sure if 328 will be anywhere near enough. Also - is my UMD score too low? Greater dragon mark of healing and extra uses allows free heals end game but I haven't played a char to lvl 20 yet so not sure what would be required to survive the quests at that level.

Your input would be appreciated

Whabbit (32 point build)
Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(17 Paladin / 2 Rogue / 1 Sorcerer)
Hit Points: 328
Spell Points: 420

BAB: 18/18/23/2828
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 23
Will: 23

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 22
Dexterity 10 14
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 8 11
Charisma 16 20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 6
Bluff 3 9
Concentration 1 2
Diplomacy 7 20
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 7 9
Heal -1 2
Hide 0 4
Intimidate 3 5
Jump 7 12
Listen 3 6
Move Silently 0 4
Open Lock n/a 10
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 0 1
Spot -1 0
Swim 7 10
Tumble 4 6
Use Magic Device 7 28

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Agility
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Bravery
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Keen Ears
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Luck
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Size Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding

Level 2 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip

Level 4 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automaatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands

Level 5 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity

Level 7 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead

Level 8 (Paladin)

Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Healing
Feat: (Automatic) Remove Disease

Level 10 (Paladin)

Level 11 (Paladin)

Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Healing

Level 13 (Paladin)

Level 14 (Paladin)

Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell

Level 16 (Paladin)

Level 17 (Paladin)

Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Lightning Reflexes

Level 19 (Paladin)

Level 20 (Paladin)


P.S. sorry about the layout - not sure how the "windowed" char sheet posts are done...

[Kyrn]

Just go the traditional 18 paladin 2 rogue evasion build. The sorc level is worthless, since you are going UMD and can hence UMD almost any spell scroll or use any wand your 1 sorc level could use anyway.

[jypes77]

Just go the traditional 18 paladin 2 rogue evasion build. The sorc level is worthless, since you are going UMD and can hence UMD almost any spell scroll or use any wand your 1 sorc level could use anyway.

Aaah so there's a traditional build for this? And here I was thinking I was being original :P

[SisAmethyst]

I am neither a geek but rather as well a noob, but why everybody jump on that Dragon marks? I know healing, but the 'Lay on Hands' for burst heals should be usualy enough and between the fights a Paladin can use a heal wand without any problem. If you still need more heal in between then something else may be wrong?

Further even if you would like to heal in battle your Concentration score is way too low to do so.

Also why diplo? To send the mob to the caster instead ? I know the idea is to be able to use the sneak attack.

But either you do then that much damage (which I doubt) that the mob automaticaly turn back on you, or you do less damage then if you would have taken the Two Heanded Weapon Feats instead and then you need no diplo at all as even a Hireling will ditch out more damage and automatically has all the aggro on him.

On a Caster diplo may be nice in case you have the aggro to send the mob back to the tank or to help the tank to keep his aggro, but on a fighter?

And as already mentioned, you said '... mowing them down with a two-hander ...' but you not take advantages of THF, ITHF, GTHF feats.

Also you seem to have a 32Point build available instead of a 28Point standard build. Why then go for two-handed at all and not push Dex a bit higher and go for the two-weapon feats (TWF, ITWF, GTWF)?

Some other minor things, why points in Listen instead of Spot? Listen may let you 'see' the noise of footsteps but Spot will let you render the complete aura of a mob and as well make you aware of traps.
Why points in Swim and Repair? for the first you usualy get an underwater action item that you swap in when needed and the later would be only usefull at all if you are a Warforged.
Why points finally in intimidate when you can't really tank anything (300HP sound a bit low)?

Just my thoughts thou...

Last but not least, if you are interested in Paladin builds, check out Junts great article 'A Guide to Creating Paladins' in the Paladin Forum, where he even list that already mentioned Evasion build with 2 levels of Rogue.

[GhoulsTouch]

Just go the traditional 18 paladin 2 rogue evasion build. The sorc level is worthless, since you are going UMD and can hence UMD almost any spell scroll or use any wand your 1 sorc level could use anyway.

Except you can't evade in heavier armor. Sorcerer does boost your sp quite a bit though and no fail on arcane wands.
People always want to tell other people to use their builds. Paladins don't invest alot in Wis and always gimp their casting ability, this is a good alternative that opens up another door as well...no fail arcane wand useage.

If you can heal yourself, and use wands...do you really need UMD?
If you are in heavy armor, do you really need to take rogue levels for a smidget of sneak and some skill points?
Why not go 1 sorcerer/19 pally?

If you are going to be a flanker, why not take rogue further...

lots of things to consider.

[Phidius]

Except you can't evade in heavier armor. Sorcerer does boost your sp quite a bit though and no fail on arcane wands.
People always want to tell other people to use their builds. Paladins don't invest alot in Wis and always gimp their casting ability, this is a good alternative that opens up another door as well...no fail arcane wand useage.
...

Not sure how to respond to this, so I'll focus on the next part.

If you can heal yourself, and use wands...do you really need UMD?

The best stuff doesn't come on a wand.

Teleport
Greater Teleport
Heal
Mass Spell Resistance (better than raid loot)
Mass Invisibility
etc...

If you've got UMD unlocked as a class skill, and have maximum ranks in a build that makes use of Charisma, you already have full access to wands... without a level of sorc.

While it's true that UMD doesn't become truly useful until later in the toon's life, I don't recommend building a toon for low-level play. Unless you are going to stay there, of course.

If you are in heavy armor, do you really need to take rogue levels for a smidget of sneak and some skill points?
Why not go 1 sorcerer/19 pally?

I don't see any mention of heavy armor... it's not a requirement for being a paladin after all.

2 rogue levels offer evasion and full ranks in UMD... oh, and a lot of skill points (something a paladin lacks) and some backstabbing, energy resists, etc...

[GhoulsTouch]

Energy resist is ranger. Elemental trap sense is rogue and its laughable.
Taking UMD for teleport and mass buffs? If you are mass buffing, you probably have a caster you can hand scrolls to.
Evasion won't work in medium or heavy armor.
So chain shirts, mithral medium for you...if you want evasion.
Bard might be a good choice to up your concentration and UMD, and also to increase your spell/skill points.
Kind of takes the need from both sorcerer and rogue...losing only your sneak attack. It also creates a little diversity in spell casting without arcane failure due to armor. 3 Bard might be more of that you are looking for.

[Gercho]

Energy resist is ranger. Elemental trap sense is rogue and its laughable.
Taking UMD for teleport and mass buffs? If you are mass buffing, you probably have a caster you can hand scrolls to.
Evasion won't work in medium or heavy armor.
So chain shirts, mithral medium for you...if you want evasion.
Bard might be a good choice to up your concentration and UMD, and also to increase your spell/skill points.
Kind of takes the need from both sorcerer and rogue...losing only your sneak attack. It also creates a little diversity in spell casting without arcane failure due to armor. 3 Bard might be more of that you are looking for.

The main use of umd is heal scrolls, there are a lot of other uses, but heal scroll is the main one, how do you get that with 1 lvl of sorc? Teleport is great for saving time.

Really, you can justify umd if the only things you will do is cast heal scrolls and teleport scrolls...

Anyway, people have tried and analized lots of builds and combinations, from all that accumulated knowledge some classic builds have arisen, one is 18 pal /2 rogue, so when someone thinks of some original build that tries to do the same than a classical build people will direct them to the classical build. Its impossible that you come up with a better build? of course is not, but if you are new, try to know well the game and the classic builds before trying to invent your own....
Well, you can try to invent whatever you want, but if you put it on the forums for the public, as i said, they will direct you to the classic builds...
In this particular case, the op misses on KotC III for 1 level of sorcerer that gives you nothing, and dragon mark feats for paladins are never that good, much less if they will be able to self heal with umd... paladins are feat starved and they dont have much room to maneuver with their feats...

[Cyr]

My rating 3/10. Let me pull out a few new player traps you have fallen into.

A) Arcane Splash...for almost any reason.
B) Very low strength.
C) Feat selection is a disaster. One of your tightest resources on a pali build and they are thrown into dragon marks.
D) Thinking that diplo will be needed on this toon. You will not be doing anywhere near enough dps to worry about turning a mob around.

I would very strongly recommend you read some of the build threads by experienced players. The commentary in those theads often will explain to you certain build nuances that are easy to miss when you first start playing. And as an aside I would strongly recommend that you ignore comments from somewhat new players (anyone with less then a year should clear things up) also in these threads. Not that some of them do not have great ideas, but the majority are fairly clueless about builds and as a new player it might be harder for you to get a clear picture if you read too much of the chatter.

[jypes77]

Thanks for the input SisAmethyst.

Some of the skill point above are actually misleading since they get boosts not from points put into them but actually from stat boosts. Spot, Intimi, Repair etc don't have any points in them - all my skill points (2 per lvl ) go into UMD and diplo, so I'm not sinking them into the other skill areas.

Good point about the THF feats - will look into that. Honestly I take dragon marks only cause I'm curious - I have a dragon mark of each type on various chars, and I find they make builds more intersting - not really a power based thing. The healing dragon mark does offer the HEAL spell for nothing 5 times per rest and much earlier than usually available which is quite good imo - lay on hands would be mostly for battle scenarios/emergency heals and full HEAL spell for running away/quick heal. For damage - right now I'm finding I hit OK with a two hander, but can see this changing as I increase in levels. Might nerf the build enough to drop the marks and take thf instead.

I avoided TWF only because I have 3 chars already down that line and didn't want to end up with a familiar fight style. The build is very point intensive and bumping dex up to 17 would bring cha or str down too much (imo).

Diplo is the fastest way to enable sneak attacks I've found. I do enough damage to draw aggro regularly and lose a lot of benifits when creeps target me direct - so diplo turns them to other targets and alows me to kill them faster. This was again a flavour/interest idea - I have a caster that uses diplo for anti-aggro, but thought I'd try the oposite just to see how it works. Might not make me very popular with casters though lol. We'll see.

All in all I was actually really suprised by how much fun I've had with this build (so far) and wanted to know why it's working so much better than my other builds. It's more survivable, dishes out damage faster and has access to more spells than anything I've made (noob yeah ) - so I guess the question really is: Do you see this build being pretty useless at higher levels - and if so - what can I do to make it more viable?

Thanks again for the input.

[Noctus]

THF style is fine, but if you care about your DPS output (which you should) taking all 3 feats of the chain is a must.

Drop the Sorc level, its dead meat once you hit the dual-digit levels. 18/2 is leagues better.

14 CON pre-race is the minimum anybody should start with. Here i´d lower CHA by 1 to raise CON by 2.

[Gnorbert]

agreed, paladins simply can't spare the feats for dragonmarks.

I partially agree with dropping the sorc level but for myself I would say lesser reincarnate +1 out of the level when you get above level 14ish. That 1 sorc level can be fun even with only a couple spells.


EDIT: looking at it again... drop the sorc level ASAP... does nothing for you that you can't get from potions or clickies.

[Geonis]

Drop the Sorc level, plenty of SP by the time it matters.

Drop Cha to 14 and Int to 8, those 6 points go into Dex, feats TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Imp Crit, rest up to you (suggested- Extend, Pwr Atk, Toughness).

In my personal opinion, I don't take DMs on any character unless I have several levels of Ftr or am going Wiz (classes with bonus feats).

Skills, max UMD at 1st level (Rogue), and max a few others (Balance, Jump, etc...). The single skill point you get as Pally goes into UMD. When you take the 2nd level of Rogue around level 8 or 10, max out UMD, and drop the other skill points into balance, etc.... Be careful to take the 2nd Rogue level as an even level, other wise you end up with a .5 in UMD..... when you use the +2 tome(should be at level 7), you get 2 skill points per Pally level and those go into UMD.

Diplo is useless for a Pally.

[jypes77]

Wow away for 3 days and heaps of comments - thanks one and all for input.

I'll clarify some of my changes and the current state of the char.

agreed, paladins simply can't spare the feats for dragonmarks.

I partially agree with dropping the sorc level but for myself I would say lesser reincarnate +1 out of the level when you get above level 14ish. That 1 sorc level can be fun even with only a couple spells.

EDIT: looking at it again... drop the sorc level ASAP... does nothing for you that you can't get from potions or clickies.

Everyone seems to agree it's best to drop the level of sorc - what do you mean by lesser reincarnate +1? I have yet to reincarnate any character so not too familiar with it.

THF style is fine, but if you care about your DPS output (which you should) taking all 3 feats of the chain is a must.

Very true, and have since dropped the dragon mark in favour of the THF chain - working like a charm for little loss.

D) Thinking That Diplo Will Be Needed On This Toon. You Will Not Be Doing Anywhere Near Enough Dps To Worry About Turning A Mob Around.

Why the caps lol? Now here my noobness might show - but currently I am indeed out DPS-ing most parties I run with, with the notable exception of twinked out uber-gamers (you know who you are. I mean, who has a bloodstone and +6 strength gear at lvl 6? Incidentally I am not twinked out - running with a +1 flaming burst greataxe, nothing awesome about that. So it's not my gear...)

Hence diplo is still useful... for now. This may change at later levels. Which brings me to:

Drop the Sorc level, its dead meat once you hit the dual-digit levels.

A common theme

My highest character is level 12, so I have no experience of what to expect above this level. Due to the overwhelming majority agreeing to drop the sorc level, I ran the numbers:

--------------
(18 Paladin / 2 Rogue) (17 Paladin / 2 Rogue / 1 Sorcerer)
Hit Points: 334 328
Spell Points: 205 420

BAB: 19/19/24/29/29 18/18/23/28/28
Fortitude: 21 20
Reflex: 21 20
Will: 18 20

--------------

Ok so on face value I don't see a major difference except for the gain of +1 to attack, +6 hitpoints and -215 spellpoints. Can someone please explain why the 2 rogue/18 paladin is so much better?

Except you can't evade in heavier armor.

Haha yes found this out the hard way - now running with mithral breastplate. Evasion is a key component.

Do you think a true specialist is more what the op is looking for though? Maybe 12 ranger, 5 rogue, 3 bard? Maybe even 5 bard/3 rogue depending if he wants to cast more then have that extra d6?

Interesting but so far away from this build that it becomes something else entirely - not really the idea Thanks anyway though.

But his criteria was flank,dps,and the ability to cast more as well as utilizing UMD.

Spot on. And to try and avoid making a vanilla character of which there are 1,000,001 out there.

For example in Vault Of the Night part 3 there is a Shrine in a place where you afterwards have to jump up.

Ah yes I know the place. Two things: first of all, yes you can get out of there without a high jump - jump right up against the RIGHT side of the wall - there is a spot you can stand on (although this is not obvious from the gfx) - we have run that quest a few times and everyone gets out of there without issue using this method, including the armour clad cleric. In addition, as a 1 sorc I have access to the jump skill and high strength. I have not had any issues with jumping, but if I run into this, I'll hope there's an arcane around to cast +30 Jump on me

Finally some people here asked WHY UMD?

Well, it is not only for the heal scrolls (to be honest on my Paladin I mostly use the greater heal wands which do fine so far) but several nice items have some race or alignment restrictions.

Yup you got it - I mean I bought my +1 flaming burst great axe for 1200 pp from the AH - a bargain. It has a racial restriction which I believe made the price low, but I can use it regardless due to UMD. The same goes for a variety of other gear - for instance the +4 AC bracers from Delera's - requires chaotic, but I can get round that (eventually anyway)

Right now is actualy at which level? I guess GiantHold at level 10 may proove if your Character may survive till level 20. Also if you ever played a Barbarian you suddenly notice the difference between hitting ok and realy doing so Not that I mean that you should start a Barbarian, but it is difficult to say from oneself if you hit ok if there is less data to compare with. Also my first Paladin looked to 'hit ok', and the 'to hit' was really not that big problem, but the point was that I needed to hit too often as the damage output itself was below all means. If you then have an Oggre infront of you that swing his big club and really do some decent damage it gets important to get him down fast.

This was at level 6 - I'm now level 8 and have dropped the marks in favour of THF - works much better . Gianthold at level 10 - yes that sounds good, but as a comparison I have run Gwylans and Tear Of Dhakaan on Elite at level 8 and out killed everybody in the party without dying once - does this indicate reasonable power at this level? I am looking forward to Gianthold as that will determine of the sorc level must go or not. Yes barbarians are sick, from what I see. Next char . Indeed hitting "ok" is kinda vague - but using smite (with extra uses) can cause some nice numbers - highest crit to date was 109, though mostly it's between 50 - 60, with normal hitting being between 20 - 30. How does this stack up at level 8? Rogue haste boost also increases dps to avoid head-getting-caved-in by troll/ogre clubs.

I have a caster myself but I still feel uncomfortable with diplo. Usualy I either try to web or hold the mob or I just block and tumble through my firewalls till the roastbeef is well done
The problem with diplo is that there need to be something else that the mob can concentrate on. As soon as you solo a Quest usualy only bluff may help you to see the back of the mob. But it sounds you are quite more confident and familiar with diplo then me. Also not on my pure Rogue I had played, I never considered to take diplo to get another sneak attack (even before I got a paralyzer for my off hand), but that is just me.

Then you'll probably REALLY hate me as I gleefully diplo all the aggro onto your squishy arcane . Seriously though, diplo was just for fun - I mean, no one uses it, I have several intimi builds, and imo bluff just plain sucks (the activation time makes it completely useless - also - single target?? Why?). Yes soloing brings my dps down a lot, but diplo does something that the other char based skills don't do - gets RID of aggro. Easy to gain, not so easy to drop. I like it so far - I know I can save myself with it (against most creeps anyway)

That awakening may come around the time when you hit content like Gianthold (which is just an example). Some of the content is more a matter of the right items (e.g. poison and blindness immunity) but around level 10-14 the things show up that realy look if your character itself is solid. That even factor in player skill, but even a skilled player feels more easy with a solid build then a build that is always close to the edge

Feeling a bit apprehensive! But seriously, you're right, I have no experience of Gianthold really, so this will be the big test and might be the point where I go "Oh so THAT'S why they said my build was nerfed!". At that point I might have to do the reincarnate thing if I want to keep him. Will post when I get there :P

Indeed the Sorc may give more spell points...

Yes that's the main reason, as well as access to powerful wands such as stoneskin at level, looong before the UMD is high enough. For spells I just take exp retreat (for mad zerging and running away from Trolls - see above) as well as jump, for now and then. It's not really about the spells.

Thanks all for the comments - they are really apprecaited and have already influenced my thinking in a good way.

For a final thought - this build was created for FUN play, not uber gaming. Don't expect my name to crop up in the "Most awesome DPS ever" 1337 gamers Hall Of Fame For Uberness charts - I mean honestly, what's the idea with all this performance obsession? It's a game after all right? I feel there should be more fun builds out there and less of this "Let's max this sucker out" attitude. That's fine for mad raid running, but the world of Stormreach would be much much poorer of it wasn't for freaks like me, who like to try something original (although this turned out to actually just be a nerfed build of something else apparently lol)

P.S. I also have a RANGED based ranger/rogue - let the flaming begin!

Don't forget to actually have fun playing this game - it is awesome.

[SisAmethyst]

As I am a bit in a hurry I will only answer to part of the questions:

Everyone seems to agree it's best to drop the level of sorc - what do you mean by lesser reincarnate +1? I have yet to reincarnate any character so not too familiar with it.

There are two NPC in House Jorasco that help you respec your character. One is the Mindflyer but he only let you swap Feats. The other Option is - if you have a Heart of Wood - to re-incarnate. The +1 or +3 on a Heart of Wood tell you how often you can additionaly swap out a Class. So a +1 let you change one Class choice you made previous. But beware, right now re-incarnation mean that you loose your look. It is like you re-level that character once again, right from the start at the character creation. So when you re-login you can click on a button to re-incarnate and you see your character creation screen once again. After that you land on a ship where you instantly can re-level. You still have all the XP, standing in front of a multi-trainer that let you make again all the choices for Feats, skill-points, Enhancements and so on.

... but currently I am indeed out DPS-ing most parties I run with, with the notable exception of twinked out uber-gamers ... running with a +1 flaming burst greataxe, nothing awesome about that.

Well, a flaming burst great axe at level 8 is also not always that common
But usualy all rogue splashes can do a lot of damage, an other reason why you splash Rogue.

Hence diplo is still useful... for now.

never said it is useless

Ah yes I know the place. Two things: first of all, yes you can get out of there without a high jump - jump right up against the RIGHT side of the wall - there is a spot you can stand on (although this is not obvious from the gfx) - we have run that quest a few times and everyone gets out of there without issue using this method, including the armour clad cleric. In addition, as a 1 sorc I have access to the jump skill and high strength. I have not had any issues with jumping, but if I run into this, I'll hope there's an arcane around to cast +30 Jump on me

Well, it was just an example to show that Jump is another important skill in this game and not always an other caster is around that can cast 'jump'

Yup you got it - I mean I bought my +1 flaming burst great axe for 1200 pp from the AH - a bargain. It has a racial restriction which I believe made the price low, but I can use it regardless due to UMD. The same goes for a variety of other gear - for instance the +4 AC bracers from Delera's - requires chaotic, but I can get round that (eventually anyway)

For allignment restrictions you only have to take care of Negative Levels.

Gianthold at level 10 - yes that sounds good, but as a comparison I have run Gwylans and Tear Of Dhakaan on Elite at level 8 and out killed everybody in the party without dying once - does this indicate reasonable power at this level?

Well, I would say it proves your self sufficience and Gwylans Stand is (if you know it) more or less easy Gianthold by the way is only an example, but the mobs there hit very hard but a Giant also has a lot of HP so it is crucial to get them down as soon as possible. Or the Lions (Bezherka) that like to trip you and then eat you alive. Further that Shamans that cast blur/displacement on themself and then glitterdust. And it get's hard then to hit that one.

Yes barbarians are sick, from what I see. Next char

Take care, all your chars may feel gimped after that try

Then you'll probably REALLY hate me as I gleefully diplo all the aggro onto your squishy arcane

Not really and being unfamiliar with it does not mean I have no points in diplo

For a final thought - this build was created for FUN play, not uber gaming...Don't forget to actually have fun playing this game - it is awesome.

Yes, that is the most importnat part, having fun

PS: No flamig, but I HATE ranged Rangers that kite the mobs while being in a close combat group. I usualy then just stop running after the mobs and go ahead. Either you finish a Quest with 0 kill counts and the Ranger has all and feel 'uber' or he get to the point that he aggrooed a bit more then he could handle and after that ride in the back pack. Either way is fine as long as I finish a Quest without to much trouble

[r3dl4nce]

Ok so on face value I don't see a major difference except for the gain of +1 to attack, +6 hitpoints and -215 spellpoints. Can someone please explain why the 2 rogue/18 paladin is so much better?

+1 attack, well, you are a melee build, so to hit must be higher you can. And going 17 paladin you are losing tier III of the Paladin Prestige Enhancements, Knight of the Chalice III is very good.

Haha yes found this out the hard way - now running with mithral breastplate. Evasion is a key component.

After level 12-14, or you have *VERY HIGH* AC or you can go in robe

[SisAmethyst]

Ok so on face value I don't see a major difference except for the gain of +1 to attack, +6 hitpoints and -215 spellpoints. Can someone please explain why the 2 rogue/18 paladin is so much better?

I want to clarify one thing here. You gain one more level in BAB which is actualy not just plain +1 to attack!

If you take a look in the Compendium and look in the table of the BAB, you see for example that from level 5 to 6 you get an additional attack, and from 10 to 11 another one, and so forth. In other words if you multiclass to deep you may actualy loose additional attacks. Also for the glancing blows (someone may correct me here if I am wrong) the attack is rolled individualy. That mean you not only calculate the +1 on your primary attack but on all the others, let's name it 'side-effects'.

Additional to this if you look to level 20 of a 18/2 build you get an additional lvl 1 spell slot for memorizing spells.
Also the 3rd Prestige Enhancement line (DoS, HotD, KotC) is only available with level 18 Paladin which give you something like:

KotC: You are sworn to fighting demons, devils, and other evil outsiders, driving them from Eberron forever. Your maximum number of Smites is increased by one, your anti-fear aura is improved, and you have +4 to attack Evil Outsiders and deal 4d6 additional damage with melee and unarmed attacks against them. You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +4 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by Evil Outsiders.

Look it the other way around. If you would be a mage or sorc, then each level as well increase the mighty of your spells to resist them. Or in other words if your spell land and e.g. hold the mob or if the mob still runs at you.
But the opposite for the Figther count as well. You have to remember that for example one point more in Strength not only been calculcated for the 'to-hit' but as well for the damage (and that before any multiplier like for a critical count). So a +1 in 'to-hit' may be the difference between 0 or e.g. 40 damage, and thinking about the glancing blows it mean if the additional effects like paralize/vorpal/disintegrate/etc may happen or not. So it would be one-dimensional to say "it is just +1 in hit"

[PS: Some DDO gurus may correct me in the above terms, but it should just show the big picture]

But you are indeed right, you actualy 'loose' about 200 spell points. But another remark on that:

Resist the temptation to create a Jack of all trades!

A lot of people for example think they need to splash a rogue when they see the first chest in the Korthos Island Quest of the Necromancer behid a gate
So for the Paladin, you are mainly a Figther and for that your main job is to kill the Mob before it find the Caster and Healer more attractive then you. You MAY be able to buff yourself, but either you can use pods, wands or you are in a group with a caster that anyway already cast resist Energy onto you. Maybe even a stronger version of the spell you could cast anyway. So in the end you may not need that much mana except for your specials like 'Zeal'. That may sound hard in the lower levels where the mana pool of a Paladin is really not that great, but at later levels this issue mittigate.

Except of that : Always have fun with your build!

[SisAmethyst]

Some of the skill point above are actually misleading ... all my skill points (2 per lvl ) go into UMD and diplo, so I'm not sinking them into the other skill areas.

Ohh yes I know, 2 Skill Points are awesome less (please gimme more points!!!). But when you say only UMD and diplo, then take care. For example in Vault Of the Night part 3 there is a Shrine in a place where you afterwards have to jump up. Even players in a robe have sometimes difficulties to come back up again, and unfortunately that is not the only place. Also tumble should not be slightly dropped. Not only it prevent fall damage, but as well tumbling through swamp is faster then walking through and if something bad happen, I prefer to block and tumble e.g. back in a doorway.

Finally some people here asked WHY UMD?

Well, it is not only for the heal scrolls (to be honest on my Paladin I mostly use the greater heal wands which do fine so far) but several nice items have some race or alignment restrictions. That does not need to be one of that uber raid loot item, but even a feather fall item that you pulled out of a chest. yes, you CAN buy those things in the AH, but especialy new players not have a bank full with gear for other twinks, nor the money to buy it from the AH!

Honestly I take dragon marks only cause I'm curious - I have a dragon mark of each type on various chars, and I find they make builds more intersting - not really a power based thing. The healing dragon mark does offer the HEAL spell for nothing 5 times per rest and much earlier than usually available which is quite good imo

Hehe, I even hear a lot of people saying they take it for the look Anyway, I know a 'heal' is very nice and the 4th level Paladin spell 'Cure Light wounds' can not really compete against that. However if I remember the early levels I never really had healing issues. There where always tons of heal pots in the barrels I smashed, I always tryed to take care that my gear is up to date (e.g. not have 2 items that give the same bonus but then swap with another). Fortification, Dodge and/or Resist items all help to mitigate damage. Or last but not least the mobs died faster then they could harm me anyway. The faster a mob die, the less damage it can do to you or others which mean you need less healing.
Anyway, if you (and in my opinion you should) take the THF feats, Power Attack and Toughness, maybe Improved Critical and Skill focus UMD then there is not much left for any other Feat, as a Paladin only get them every 3 levels.

For damage - right now I'm finding I hit OK with a two hander, but can see this changing as I increase in levels. Might nerf the build enough to drop the marks and take thf instead.

Right now is actualy at which level? I guess GiantHold at level 10 may proove if your Character may survive till level 20. Also if you ever played a Barbarian you suddenly notice the difference between hitting ok and realy doing so Not that I mean that you should start a Barbarian, but it is difficult to say from oneself if you hit ok if there is less data to compare with. Also my first Paladin looked to 'hit ok', and the 'to hit' was really not that big problem, but the point was that I needed to hit too often as the damage output itself was below all means. If you then have an Oggre infront of you that swing his big club and really do some decent damage it gets important to get him down fast.

I avoided TWF only because I have 3 chars already down that line and didn't want to end up with a familiar fight style. The build is very point intensive and bumping dex up to 17 would bring cha or str down too much (imo).

Well, I realy enjoy THF and the effect of glancing blows. The ranger may kill that single mob maybe faster then me, but if there is more then one mob that try to surround him it gets hot

Diplo is the fastest way to enable sneak attacks I've found ... I have a caster that uses diplo for anti-aggro...We'll see.

I have a caster myself but I still feel uncomfortable with diplo. Usualy I either try to web or hold the mob or I just block and tumble through my firewalls till the roastbeef is well done
The problem with diplo is that there need to be something else that the mob can concentrate on. As soon as you solo a Quest usualy only bluff may help you to see the back of the mob. But it sounds you are quite more confident and familiar with diplo then me. Also not on my pure Rogue I had played, I never considered to take diplo to get another sneak attack (even before I got a paralyzer for my off hand), but that is just me.

All in all I was actually really suprised by how much fun I've had with this build (so far) and wanted to know why it's working so much better than my other builds. It's more survivable, dishes out damage faster and has access to more spells than anything I've made (noob yeah ) - so I guess the question really is: Do you see this build being pretty useless at higher levels - and if so - what can I do to make it more viable?

Well, I will be carefull and not judge that build to be 'pretty useless' at higher levels, but the early levels are realy quite forgiving. I know that some builds are realy fun to play, but often there is an awesome awakening. That awakening may come around the time when you hit content like Gianthold (which is just an example). Some of the content is more a matter of the right items (e.g. poison and blindness immunity) but around level 10-14 the things show up that realy look if your character itself is solid. That even factor in player skill, but even a skilled player feels more easy with a solid build then a build that is always close to the edge

Survivability is always nice and Paladins can be great in that Element, but as others said, for example the level of Sorcerer not really add that much to it in the later levels but limit you in other places (e.g. you loose a base attack bonus). Indeed the Sorc may give more spell points but people already tried to combine cleric with sorc before the favoured souls came out but usualy the rule came up to never mix an arcane caster with divine.

The spells, well, 'Niacs Cold Ray' is a one shot in low levels but as you will not improve in Sorc or Wizard Levels and probably use a 2handed Weapon instead of a Scepter the mobs will just plain ignore your spells in later levels. For Spells like 'Expeditious Retreat' or 'Detect Secret Doors' there are plenty of wands and items with clickies on them that do the job perfectly, sometimes even better then with only one Level of Sorc (e.g. 5th level Jump). Even spells with no saves like 'magic missle' will just be eaten by the damage reduction of the mob. So all in all what looks nice in low levels have no more use in later levels.

[Phidius]

Energy resist is ranger. Elemental trap sense is rogue and its laughable.
Taking UMD for teleport and mass buffs? If you are mass buffing, you probably have a caster you can hand scrolls to.
Evasion won't work in medium or heavy armor.
So chain shirts, mithral medium for you...if you want evasion.
Bard might be a good choice to up your concentration and UMD, and also to increase your spell/skill points.

Actually, Pallies get Energy Resist too, not just Rangers. The XXX Trap Lore stacks with the Paladin's Resist Energy spell, so I'm not sure where you get laughable from.

You could just hand those wands to a caster, too.

I think Evasion > Heavy Plate, especially if your AC is going to hover in the 40s with full plate.

Paladins can't splash Bard. Alignment conflicts and all.

[GhoulsTouch]

Ah never played a bard...
Though I know a little about them.
Didn't realize that about alignment restrictions.
I hardly make any of my characters "lawful" unless I was in haste in creation.

Rogue,bard,ranger is viable however and plenty of skillpoints to play around with. I mean if you are going flank, melee,caster.