1 Sorcerer/2 Rogue/17 Palladin - rate my build :)

[jypes77]

Hi all,

Total noob player here so probably so glaring mistakes in the build below. The idea behind it was purely fun but at low levels this has turned out to be very solid (compared to my other chars)

The idea here was to have high saves, be able to use most magic and deliver sneak attack based dps (in a party) by using diplomacy to turn creeps onto other players then mowing them down with a two-hander.

My questions are numerous - I see plenty of build here with crazy hp at lvl 20 - not sure if 328 will be anywhere near enough. Also - is my UMD score too low? Greater dragon mark of healing and extra uses allows free heals end game but I haven't played a char to lvl 20 yet so not sure what would be required to survive the quests at that level.

Your input would be appreciated

Whabbit (32 point build)
Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(17 Paladin / 2 Rogue / 1 Sorcerer)
Hit Points: 328
Spell Points: 420

BAB: 18/18/23/2828
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 23
Will: 23

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 22
Dexterity 10 14
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 8 11
Charisma 16 20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 6
Bluff 3 9
Concentration 1 2
Diplomacy 7 20
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 7 9
Heal -1 2
Hide 0 4
Intimidate 3 5
Jump 7 12
Listen 3 6
Move Silently 0 4
Open Lock n/a 10
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 0 1
Spot -1 0
Swim 7 10
Tumble 4 6
Use Magic Device 7 28

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Agility
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Bravery
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Keen Ears
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Luck
Feat: (Automatic) Halfling Size Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding

Level 2 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip

Level 4 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automaatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands

Level 5 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity

Level 7 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead

Level 8 (Paladin)

Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Healing
Feat: (Automatic) Remove Disease

Level 10 (Paladin)

Level 11 (Paladin)

Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Healing

Level 13 (Paladin)

Level 14 (Paladin)

Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell

Level 16 (Paladin)

Level 17 (Paladin)

Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Lightning Reflexes

Level 19 (Paladin)

Level 20 (Paladin)


P.S. sorry about the layout - not sure how the "windowed" char sheet posts are done...

[Kyrn]

Just go the traditional 18 paladin 2 rogue evasion build. The sorc level is worthless, since you are going UMD and can hence UMD almost any spell scroll or use any wand your 1 sorc level could use anyway.

[jypes77]

Just go the traditional 18 paladin 2 rogue evasion build. The sorc level is worthless, since you are going UMD and can hence UMD almost any spell scroll or use any wand your 1 sorc level could use anyway.

Aaah so there's a traditional build for this? And here I was thinking I was being original :P

[SisAmethyst]

I am neither a geek but rather as well a noob, but why everybody jump on that Dragon marks? I know healing, but the 'Lay on Hands' for burst heals should be usualy enough and between the fights a Paladin can use a heal wand without any problem. If you still need more heal in between then something else may be wrong?

Further even if you would like to heal in battle your Concentration score is way too low to do so.

Also why diplo? To send the mob to the caster instead ? I know the idea is to be able to use the sneak attack.

But either you do then that much damage (which I doubt) that the mob automaticaly turn back on you, or you do less damage then if you would have taken the Two Heanded Weapon Feats instead and then you need no diplo at all as even a Hireling will ditch out more damage and automatically has all the aggro on him.

On a Caster diplo may be nice in case you have the aggro to send the mob back to the tank or to help the tank to keep his aggro, but on a fighter?

And as already mentioned, you said '... mowing them down with a two-hander ...' but you not take advantages of THF, ITHF, GTHF feats.

Also you seem to have a 32Point build available instead of a 28Point standard build. Why then go for two-handed at all and not push Dex a bit higher and go for the two-weapon feats (TWF, ITWF, GTWF)?

Some other minor things, why points in Listen instead of Spot? Listen may let you 'see' the noise of footsteps but Spot will let you render the complete aura of a mob and as well make you aware of traps.
Why points in Swim and Repair? for the first you usualy get an underwater action item that you swap in when needed and the later would be only usefull at all if you are a Warforged.
Why points finally in intimidate when you can't really tank anything (300HP sound a bit low)?

Just my thoughts thou...

Last but not least, if you are interested in Paladin builds, check out Junts great article 'A Guide to Creating Paladins' in the Paladin Forum, where he even list that already mentioned Evasion build with 2 levels of Rogue.

[jypes77]

Thanks for the input SisAmethyst.

Some of the skill point above are actually misleading since they get boosts not from points put into them but actually from stat boosts. Spot, Intimi, Repair etc don't have any points in them - all my skill points (2 per lvl ) go into UMD and diplo, so I'm not sinking them into the other skill areas.

Good point about the THF feats - will look into that. Honestly I take dragon marks only cause I'm curious - I have a dragon mark of each type on various chars, and I find they make builds more intersting - not really a power based thing. The healing dragon mark does offer the HEAL spell for nothing 5 times per rest and much earlier than usually available which is quite good imo - lay on hands would be mostly for battle scenarios/emergency heals and full HEAL spell for running away/quick heal. For damage - right now I'm finding I hit OK with a two hander, but can see this changing as I increase in levels. Might nerf the build enough to drop the marks and take thf instead.

I avoided TWF only because I have 3 chars already down that line and didn't want to end up with a familiar fight style. The build is very point intensive and bumping dex up to 17 would bring cha or str down too much (imo).

Diplo is the fastest way to enable sneak attacks I've found. I do enough damage to draw aggro regularly and lose a lot of benifits when creeps target me direct - so diplo turns them to other targets and alows me to kill them faster. This was again a flavour/interest idea - I have a caster that uses diplo for anti-aggro, but thought I'd try the oposite just to see how it works. Might not make me very popular with casters though lol. We'll see.

All in all I was actually really suprised by how much fun I've had with this build (so far) and wanted to know why it's working so much better than my other builds. It's more survivable, dishes out damage faster and has access to more spells than anything I've made (noob yeah ) - so I guess the question really is: Do you see this build being pretty useless at higher levels - and if so - what can I do to make it more viable?

Thanks again for the input.

[Noctus]

THF style is fine, but if you care about your DPS output (which you should) taking all 3 feats of the chain is a must.

Drop the Sorc level, its dead meat once you hit the dual-digit levels. 18/2 is leagues better.

14 CON pre-race is the minimum anybody should start with. Here i´d lower CHA by 1 to raise CON by 2.

[Gnorbert]

agreed, paladins simply can't spare the feats for dragonmarks.

I partially agree with dropping the sorc level but for myself I would say lesser reincarnate +1 out of the level when you get above level 14ish. That 1 sorc level can be fun even with only a couple spells.


EDIT: looking at it again... drop the sorc level ASAP... does nothing for you that you can't get from potions or clickies.

[Geonis]

Drop the Sorc level, plenty of SP by the time it matters.

Drop Cha to 14 and Int to 8, those 6 points go into Dex, feats TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Imp Crit, rest up to you (suggested- Extend, Pwr Atk, Toughness).

In my personal opinion, I don't take DMs on any character unless I have several levels of Ftr or am going Wiz (classes with bonus feats).

Skills, max UMD at 1st level (Rogue), and max a few others (Balance, Jump, etc...). The single skill point you get as Pally goes into UMD. When you take the 2nd level of Rogue around level 8 or 10, max out UMD, and drop the other skill points into balance, etc.... Be careful to take the 2nd Rogue level as an even level, other wise you end up with a .5 in UMD..... when you use the +2 tome(should be at level 7), you get 2 skill points per Pally level and those go into UMD.

Diplo is useless for a Pally.

[GhoulsTouch]

Just go the traditional 18 paladin 2 rogue evasion build. The sorc level is worthless, since you are going UMD and can hence UMD almost any spell scroll or use any wand your 1 sorc level could use anyway.

Except you can't evade in heavier armor. Sorcerer does boost your sp quite a bit though and no fail on arcane wands.
People always want to tell other people to use their builds. Paladins don't invest alot in Wis and always gimp their casting ability, this is a good alternative that opens up another door as well...no fail arcane wand useage.

If you can heal yourself, and use wands...do you really need UMD?
If you are in heavy armor, do you really need to take rogue levels for a smidget of sneak and some skill points?
Why not go 1 sorcerer/19 pally?

If you are going to be a flanker, why not take rogue further...

lots of things to consider.

[Phidius]

Except you can't evade in heavier armor. Sorcerer does boost your sp quite a bit though and no fail on arcane wands.
People always want to tell other people to use their builds. Paladins don't invest alot in Wis and always gimp their casting ability, this is a good alternative that opens up another door as well...no fail arcane wand useage.
...

Not sure how to respond to this, so I'll focus on the next part.

If you can heal yourself, and use wands...do you really need UMD?

The best stuff doesn't come on a wand.

Teleport
Greater Teleport
Heal
Mass Spell Resistance (better than raid loot)
Mass Invisibility
etc...

If you've got UMD unlocked as a class skill, and have maximum ranks in a build that makes use of Charisma, you already have full access to wands... without a level of sorc.

While it's true that UMD doesn't become truly useful until later in the toon's life, I don't recommend building a toon for low-level play. Unless you are going to stay there, of course.

If you are in heavy armor, do you really need to take rogue levels for a smidget of sneak and some skill points?
Why not go 1 sorcerer/19 pally?

I don't see any mention of heavy armor... it's not a requirement for being a paladin after all.

2 rogue levels offer evasion and full ranks in UMD... oh, and a lot of skill points (something a paladin lacks) and some backstabbing, energy resists, etc...

[GhoulsTouch]

Energy resist is ranger. Elemental trap sense is rogue and its laughable.
Taking UMD for teleport and mass buffs? If you are mass buffing, you probably have a caster you can hand scrolls to.
Evasion won't work in medium or heavy armor.
So chain shirts, mithral medium for you...if you want evasion.
Bard might be a good choice to up your concentration and UMD, and also to increase your spell/skill points.
Kind of takes the need from both sorcerer and rogue...losing only your sneak attack. It also creates a little diversity in spell casting without arcane failure due to armor. 3 Bard might be more of that you are looking for.

[Phidius]

Energy resist is ranger. Elemental trap sense is rogue and its laughable.
Taking UMD for teleport and mass buffs? If you are mass buffing, you probably have a caster you can hand scrolls to.
Evasion won't work in medium or heavy armor.
So chain shirts, mithral medium for you...if you want evasion.
Bard might be a good choice to up your concentration and UMD, and also to increase your spell/skill points.

Actually, Pallies get Energy Resist too, not just Rangers. The XXX Trap Lore stacks with the Paladin's Resist Energy spell, so I'm not sure where you get laughable from.

You could just hand those wands to a caster, too.

I think Evasion > Heavy Plate, especially if your AC is going to hover in the 40s with full plate.

Paladins can't splash Bard. Alignment conflicts and all.

[GhoulsTouch]

Ah never played a bard...
Though I know a little about them.
Didn't realize that about alignment restrictions.
I hardly make any of my characters "lawful" unless I was in haste in creation.

Rogue,bard,ranger is viable however and plenty of skillpoints to play around with. I mean if you are going flank, melee,caster.

[Phidius]

...never played a bard...
Though I know stuff about them.
Didn't realize...

Haiku!!


Sorry - couldn't help myself

...
Rogue,bard,ranger is viable however and plenty of skillpoints to play around with.

Perhaps, but a completely different build.

[Gercho]

Energy resist is ranger. Elemental trap sense is rogue and its laughable.
Taking UMD for teleport and mass buffs? If you are mass buffing, you probably have a caster you can hand scrolls to.
Evasion won't work in medium or heavy armor.
So chain shirts, mithral medium for you...if you want evasion.
Bard might be a good choice to up your concentration and UMD, and also to increase your spell/skill points.
Kind of takes the need from both sorcerer and rogue...losing only your sneak attack. It also creates a little diversity in spell casting without arcane failure due to armor. 3 Bard might be more of that you are looking for.

The main use of umd is heal scrolls, there are a lot of other uses, but heal scroll is the main one, how do you get that with 1 lvl of sorc? Teleport is great for saving time.

Really, you can justify umd if the only things you will do is cast heal scrolls and teleport scrolls...

Anyway, people have tried and analized lots of builds and combinations, from all that accumulated knowledge some classic builds have arisen, one is 18 pal /2 rogue, so when someone thinks of some original build that tries to do the same than a classical build people will direct them to the classical build. Its impossible that you come up with a better build? of course is not, but if you are new, try to know well the game and the classic builds before trying to invent your own....
Well, you can try to invent whatever you want, but if you put it on the forums for the public, as i said, they will direct you to the classic builds...
In this particular case, the op misses on KotC III for 1 level of sorcerer that gives you nothing, and dragon mark feats for paladins are never that good, much less if they will be able to self heal with umd... paladins are feat starved and they dont have much room to maneuver with their feats...

[Cyr]

My rating 3/10. Let me pull out a few new player traps you have fallen into.

A) Arcane Splash...for almost any reason.
B) Very low strength.
C) Feat selection is a disaster. One of your tightest resources on a pali build and they are thrown into dragon marks.
D) Thinking that diplo will be needed on this toon. You will not be doing anywhere near enough dps to worry about turning a mob around.

I would very strongly recommend you read some of the build threads by experienced players. The commentary in those theads often will explain to you certain build nuances that are easy to miss when you first start playing. And as an aside I would strongly recommend that you ignore comments from somewhat new players (anyone with less then a year should clear things up) also in these threads. Not that some of them do not have great ideas, but the majority are fairly clueless about builds and as a new player it might be harder for you to get a clear picture if you read too much of the chatter.

[Fattiest]

Ah never played a bard...
Though I know a little about them.
Didn't realize that about alignment restrictions.
I hardly make any of my characters "lawful" unless I was in haste in creation.

Rogue,bard,ranger is viable however and plenty of skillpoints to play around with. I mean if you are going flank, melee,caster.

Ever play a pally??????

sorry had to based upon the advice your giving and how Phidius is tearing your thoughts apart...................

[Fattiest]

my Rating 3/10. Let Me Pull Out A Few New Player Traps You Have Fallen Into.

a) Arcane Splash...for Almost Any Reason.
B) Very Low Strength.
C) Feat Selection Is A Disaster. One Of Your Tightest Resources On A Pali Build And They Are Thrown Into Dragon Marks.
D) Thinking That Diplo Will Be Needed On This Toon. You Will Not Be Doing Anywhere Near Enough Dps To Worry About Turning A Mob Around.
I Would Very Strongly Recommend You Read Some Of The Build Threads By Experienced Players. The Commentary In Those Theads Often Will Explain To You Certain Build Nuances That Are Easy To Miss When You First Start Playing. And As An Aside I Would Strongly Recommend That You Ignore Comments From Somewhat New Players (anyone With Less Then A Year Should Clear Things Up) Also In These Threads. Not That Some Of Them Do Not Have Great Ideas, But The Majority Are Fairly Clueless About Builds And As A New Player It Might Be Harder For You To Get A Clear Picture If You Read Too Much Of The Chatter.

+1

[Gercho]

My rating 3/10. Let me pull out a few new player traps you have fallen into.

A) Arcane Splash...for almost any reason.
B) Very low strength.
C) Feat selection is a disaster. One of your tightest resources on a pali build and they are thrown into dragon marks.
D) Thinking that diplo will be needed on this toon. You will not be doing anywhere near enough dps to worry about turning a mob around.

I would very strongly recommend you read some of the build threads by experienced players. The commentary in those theads often will explain to you certain build nuances that are easy to miss when you first start playing. And as an aside I would strongly recommend that you ignore comments from somewhat new players (anyone with less then a year should clear things up) also in these threads. Not that some of them do not have great ideas, but the majority are fairly clueless about builds and as a new player it might be harder for you to get a clear picture if you read too much of the chatter.

Agree with most, except the 1 year thing is a little arbitrary, some new(er) people know more about some specific class than some older ones...

[GhoulsTouch]

Okay I gotcha, simplistic. That's whats up with the splash builds.

Do you think a true specialist is more what the op is looking for though? Maybe 12 ranger, 5 rogue, 3 bard? Maybe even 5 bard/3 rogue depending if he wants to cast more then have that extra d6?