loot rules - my 2c

[Adro]

Not going to name anyone & my intention is not a negative comment, just an explanation. In fact the "offending" people were very kind about it, if not totally understanding.

Anyway, their rules are if that they are in a raid they must offer their loot to their own members first on a need basis, then have their own members roll for want, then they let general group roll.
I have nothing against that. I ran with Novus Via and our rules perhaps slightly weighted to ourselves, tho usually our pugs were perspective members and it was our group. We did not enforce our rules in other people's group.
Now my issue is I was told they do not horde loot, but if most people are putting up for general roll that will WEIGHT loot in their direction and the instance that caused the problem left most of the loot in their hands (all but 1 of 4 or 5 pieces) and the person who got the one item they pulled ALSO rolled on the other pieces of loot they didnt pull. This group I believe was 6 of us, 5 of them, and 1 random. Things like that will happen randomly, but it did give a bad impression to my guildies.
To bring averages back to fair, since they have to follow their rules even in pugs, we would have to adopt a rule of having our 'general' roll exclude them, including items put up by puggers. Only if no one except them wanted would it be put up for a real general roll. Otherwise there IS hording and pugs just increase their chance at loot while giving a lower than normal chance to people including them in their group. I'd feel like a jerk doing that tho, so no idea what the fair situation is unless we all adopt their rules (which wont happen).
I like many of their members and hope to party with those people again later (edit) without toe stepping.

[protokon]

First off, we have been fortunate on our server to have most guilds use the general rolling rules for any pugs. There have been a few exceptions to this, and I think the one I liked the most was from a European guild:

your loot was your loot initially, and if you did not loot it, you were allowed to roll for any other loot up for roll. but they only allowed you to roll on one item. sucks if you lose that roll, but it stops the entire group from rolling on every item and loot whoring. (i had won a tod ring because no one else wanted it, and the second ring was another useful one for myself, but they told me not to roll).

My guild loot rules have always been to allow anyone who wanted to roll, and can obviously put it to use, roll for it. there was only once instance in which a PUG had won the roll and we did not pass it to him (a monk rolling for the madstone shield over a tank in our guild). This event caused us to amend our rules to include common sense judgement on the final decision.

but to reply to your response to this incident, If someone else is leading the run and decides to use loot rules against the norm, especially that lean heavily towards outfitting there own members first before allowing anyone outside to roll for it, why should that stop you from doing the same in there runs? In a perfect world, people understand that the party of 12 members were there to contribute to the completion of the raid, and all participants should be given a fair chance at rare loot, regardless of guild tag. In the rare instances that this does not occur, you either play by there rules and do what you will in there groups, or don't group with em.

[Seelowe]

the ideal situation would be not having to have any rules and rely on common sense. now, with common sense being fairly uncommon as most of us might are aware of and with loot rules in place I have to say I like the rule mentioned before.

1 roll / person. decide which item you really need and feel free to roll on it. regardless of if you are in my guild or not. tr has complicated things too much to say "oh, your toon does not need that" and I have seen too many players roll on too many items as traditional loot *****s so rules are sadly needed. this is especially true in epics as you often have a bunch of seals shards, names up.

now, for the op's situation I don't have any issues with ppl rolling in guild first. it is also fairly obvious to me that if you are going to exclude others from rolls on your items before ppl in guild have passed on them, you are also not rolling on items of ppl outside guild before those excluded earlier have passed on said items. same treatment for all I'd believe.

[MarcusCleardawn]

Two points:

1. If as part of your raid you intend to impose looting rules other than "if you can use it, keep it; otherwise put it up for roll" you should let people know on the front end so they can make an informed decision whether it's worth their time/consumables/etc. to participate in your raid.

2. I'm hoping that the "offending" group you mentioned was only rolling for guild members who actually participated in the raid. The idea of providing premium loot to someone who wasn't even there in preference to someone who actually worked the raid is pretty classless.

[pandalet]

A request from someone who mostly raids in pugs:

If you're going to apply a 'guildies first' loot rule, or in fact anything other than straight 'everyone gets to roll on anything put up for roll', please make this clear to people BEFORE the raid starts. It's really no fun to find out that you're the poor relation after doing everything you can to help the group succeed. No drama or stress, just make sure everyone knows what's going on before, so they can make an informed decision.

Personally, as a pugger, if I was informed that I would be a second class player before a quest, I would respectfully decline and leave the group; your loot is your loot, and who I choose to play with is my choice. I would only accept such strictures when there is some significant other benefit to running with that group (wanting to learn from a particular player or something).

[Doomcrew]

pm the guild name pls

[Greydeath]

In a perfect world, people understand that the party of 12 members were there to contribute to the completion of the raid, and all participants should be given a fair chance at rare loot, regardless of guild tag.

In a perfect world indeed... if only such a place were to actually exist. The reality is unfortunately vastly different. In most (even all) raids the work is covered by a few and the majority are there to essentially pike. As such bringing Pugs along generally increases the difficulty - if not leading to actual failure.

For example, for whatever reason the last spot in our DQ on the wknd (Argo btw) was pugged out since no one else was available... how could this be bad you think? Could we not carry the day despite their dead weight? Yes, we probably could have, had the pug not started the raid with half the party still at the shrine Needless to say we immediately re-ran with 11.

[Verengor]

I came over from the EU servers to thelanis at the beginning of the year.

On the EU servers I've never seen anyone passing a raid item to their friends/guildys/trading raid items or letting only friends roll. People either looted the item on their own or put it up for roll for the full team.
However on Thelanis the loot behaviour seems to be really different. In the majority of raids I've done with PUGS over here items were given to guildys/friends. I personally don't like that behaviour but I don't care.

[GhoulsTouch]

I came over from the EU servers to thelanis at the beginning of the year.

On the EU servers I've never seen anyone passing a raid item to their friends/guildys/trading raid items or letting only friends roll. People either looted the item on their own or put it up for roll for the full team.
However on Thelanis the loot behaviour seems to be really different. In the majority of raids I've done with PUGS over here items were given to guildys/friends. I personally don't like that behaviour but I don't care.

This is the core reason people just don't group with certain guilds.

[Astars]

When I hosted abbot and many of a certain guild joined, I said beforehand to separate in X-guild loot and non-X-guild loot for rolls. Was no problem. Worked and every1 accepted it. Nowadays I'm just too lazy to host abbot raids outside guild (or just short-man it). So if I join one of their runs now, I just accept the situation as it is (lower loot chance). Their run - their rules. My run - my rules. Lazyness wins

[Eldun]

pm the guild name pls

Pestilence and Legion both roll within the guild on loot pulled by fellow guildies. It's part of the incentive, as I see it, to be in a guild ... working towards helping our crew out. The more people we can put in a raid the higher the likelyhood of getting what we need.

As to address some of the points mentioned above:

1. Your loot is your loot, this is how Turbine choose to make it. If you want only guildies to roll on it thats your choice.

2. Announcing policies ahead of time is certainly a nicety but expected? If you're the one putting the raid together feel free to state what you want done .. of course you're stating what you want others to do with their loot so good luck with that when they pull an item they or their in-party buddy wants.

3. All the non-guildies roll only ... I think this is a good idea and never understood why someone would toss a raid item to a guy with a guild tag that comprises 75% of the party make up when some poor schlub who is the only guy from a guild wants the same item. I suppose that we should again refer to #1.

Of course this is all my 2 cents which is not even worth that. I loved the old system where there was always 2 raid items and you could just solo the raids or shortman them and actually be rewarded for making a supreme effort and learning every aspect of the raid and crafting supremely uber toons.

[Renegade66]

If I were a pugger and wanting to put my item up for roll, I would be very tempted to only allow those to roll that are not Legion/Pestilence.

The problem with that is being a pugger I gain a huge benefit with running with these elite guilds. The main source of Epic and other raid completions are due to Legion/Pestilence allowing others in. Although I may run other raids without them, there's no question that I get more completions, more quickly and less expensively when running with Legion/Pestilence (well Legion at least).

If I chose to state that everyone but Legion are allowed to roll on my loot item, I risk losing my preferred pugger status and all the benefits that go with it. Although it would be tempting, I'd be inclined to suck it up and let everyone roll versus leading with my chin.

To make matters worse for the random pileon that makes it into one of our raids, many of the preferred puggers offer us the loot before allowing others to roll on it. Why would they do that when we don't allow them to roll on our loot? Seems counter-intuitive. Well, the benefit to them is that if we don't want a piece of loot within guild, we will offer it to the preferred pugger before the random pileon.

To say this isn't fair is a stretch. Unfair would be telling you what to do with your loot and we don't do that. Your loot is your loot. We have decided to keep our loot within guild. We have almost everything we need, so non-guildies that run with us get the completions and a good chance at getting the loot we pull that we no longer need. This is especially true for the smart ones that are skilled, work within the system and become preferred puggers. Ask the preferred puggers if they have any gripes. The random, pileon puggers are just lucky to get the completion, so don't complain much either. The ones in the middle may get the shaft, but there's no hard feelings if they prefer to not raid with us.

******************

As if this post hasn't already rambled on longer than a Ministry nerd-rage post ( you know you're my man Mini), I've pasted Legion's Loot Policy below.

Legion Raid Loot Policy

For any raid run with at least two Legion members, raid loot will be rolled on. We only roll on bound to account/character raid items, tomes and shards. We also roll on BtA/BtC shards and items from all epic quests (not just the raid).

Before the main chest is opened, all guildies type in guild chat their bound item, shard and tome selection. Puggers do not select.


1. If a selected item drops, then it goes to the person that selected it.


2. If more than one person has it selected, then it is rolled on by the multiple selectors only. The person whose name it's under will define the rules for that roll.


3. If a non-selected item drops then it is put up for guild roll. It's important that if you want it just speak up. If you wait, it drags out the process and increases the chance of people dropping and losing that piece of loot.


4. Check with guildies first, but if there is no guild interest then offer it up to pugger roll.


5. Items are not to be rolled on for trade purposes or future considerations. This eliminates people picking an item they don't really need and wouldn't use in order to trade it to a guildmate who does need it for a nice item for themselves or just because they don't want a pugger to get it.


6. It is preferred that everyone stays in quest until all raid loot is pulled from chest. This is the only way to ensure the loot isn't accidentally given to someone who has already left and cannot get back in to reassign. If you do leave early, please announce and drop team immediately to reduce chance of misassignment of raid loot. Do not Finish Out until all Tomes are in the hands of the right person.


7. Dimension Doors and Greater Teleports should not be cast anywhere near the chest and should be announced first in game and in vent. This will eliminate the chance of going to click your raid item and instead hit a DD or GTP.


8. Puggers are allowed to do what they want with raid items they pull. They can take it, give it away, trade it, leave it in the chest or whatever. If they chose to give/trade it to a Legion member, it's the puggers right to give it to him/her even if that Legion member had not called it. If they are a selfish sorcerer that takes Madstone Boots over one of our Barbarians then feel free to hate and blacklist, but don't try to force him to hand over the goods. However, it is okay to give helpful suggestions like, "You know you can't cast while using those boots, right? I just want to make sure since once you pull it you can't trade it and maybe one of the fighter types could make better use of it." It's a fine line though, so caution is advised.


9. Legion takes care of their Casters and Healers, both Legion and Pugger alike. At the end of any raid, please stop and ask for the Healers & Casters to let us know what resources were consumed so we can compensate them. For Legion raids, the Raid Leader should do this, but other Legion members in the party should also make sure this happens. For non-Legion raids, we expect you to make an effort in compensating the healers and casters appropriately. Most times, simply asking is enough. Other times, a small amount can be given to help share your part of the raid cost.

[HumanJHawkins]

<cut>Anyway, their rules are if that they are in a raid they must offer their loot to their own members first on a need basis, then have their own members roll for want, then they let general group roll.<cut>

Loot rules are weaksauce. OTOH, caring about the fact that weak people have loot rules is even weaker sauce.

Play. Have fun. If it bothers you that someone doesn't want to share their toy truck with you because they prefer to give it to their friend, just play with other people or go get your own toy truck.

[darkrune]

As a "preferred pugger" in the legion runs ( correct me if I am wrong ren) but also the leader of a very small guild that includes my RL brother, I know exactly what I am going to get in a legion raid... A 95% chance to compete and a chance at loot. In fact I run with them oftn enough that I watch thier backs after mine and my guildies just as they do for me.

My personal rules go as follows:
1) self
2) brother
3) guild
4) friends
5) puggers

The reason is simple you want to help those that help you to enjoy the game. If givn the option of 2 people one of which I run with ever night the other that I have never met, why wouldn't I help out my friends? Helping them get better with loot helps me in the future get more completions easier.

This topic seems to come up every so often when someone feels shorted because they didn't get to roll for someone elses loot.

Read this next part closely... Your loot is YOUR loot to do with as YOU see fit. Period. End of story. Don't like it, solo it or run guild only no pug runs as that is the only way to ensure your rules are actually followed.

Just my 2 cp fwiw.

Dark

[Renegade66]

My personal rules go as follows:
1) self
2) brother
3) guild
3.5) Renegade
4) friends
5) puggers

Slight correction and yes, you are definitely a preferred-pugger.

[GottDDO]

Since I returned to the game a couple months ago, I haven't really done much raiding, so I haven't encountered anything along these lines yet, really.

But if I do run into this situation, I feel whoever pulled it can do whatever they want with it. I don't have any claim to it.

If I pull something that I don't need, and I'm in a group of strangers, I'll ask if anyone needs it, and if more than one person does, I'll let them roll.

If I pull something I don't need, and someone I know needs it, I'm just gonna give it to them.

If anyone has a problem with that, they **** sure should've said something in the beginning, and then I could've just left the raid.


Oh. And if I'm going to use an item when I TR, believe that I will loot it.

[GlorkTheInvader]

Though this is a strictly unofficial statement, Stompfest typically operates on an as-needed basis, with a general prefernce towards guildies.

If someone in the guild genuinely needs an item, they get (or roll for) it. None of us are stupid and greedy enough to say we need something we don't.
Then it goes up for roll among non-guildies who need it.
Then it goes for public roll.

Honestly, I'd prefer a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" policy between guilds as well, but we quickly came to learn that many raiding guilds keep items in-guild first and foremost, so I feel like we've had to adopt a similar policy.

EDIT: My personal (pugging elsewhere, only Stompfester in the raid) policy, replace "guildies" with "friends." If I raid with Player X several times a week, and Player Y a couple times a month, you can bet I'd rather X be geared out than Y.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

My personal rules go as follows:
1) self
2) brother
3) guild
4) friends
5) puggers
.
.
.
.
1000006) Renegade

Slight correction and yes, you are definitely a preferred-pugger.

Fixed it again to how it should be...


Seriously though, it's not like we keep our loot policy a secret, join or not at your descression (and peril and incredulity and pain).

[Greydeath]

If I were a pugger and wanting to put my item up for roll, I would be very tempted to only allow those to roll that are not Legion/Pestilence.

The problem with that is being a pugger I gain a huge benefit with running with these elite guilds. The main source of Epic and other raid completions are due to Legion/Pestilence allowing others in. Although I may run other raids without them, there's no question that I get more completions, more quickly and less expensively when running with Legion/Pestilence (well Legion at least).

If I chose to state that everyone but Legion are allowed to roll on my loot item, I risk losing my preferred pugger status and all the benefits that go with it. Although it would be tempting, I'd be inclined to suck it up and let everyone roll versus leading with my chin.

To make matters worse for the random pileon that makes it into one of our raids, many of the preferred puggers offer us the loot before allowing others to roll on it. Why would they do that when we don't allow them to roll on our loot? Seems counter-intuitive. Well, the benefit to them is that if we don't want a piece of loot within guild, we will offer it to the preferred pugger before the random pileon.

To say this isn't fair is a stretch. Unfair would be telling you what to do with your loot and we don't do that. Your loot is your loot. We have decided to keep our loot within guild. We have almost everything we need, so non-guildies that run with us get the completions and a good chance at getting the loot we pull that we no longer need. This is especially true for the smart ones that are skilled, work within the system and become preferred puggers. Ask the preferred puggers if they have any gripes. The random, pileon puggers are just lucky to get the completion, so don't complain much either. The ones in the middle may get the shaft, but there's no hard feelings if they prefer to not raid with us.

******************

As if this post hasn't already rambled on longer than a Ministry nerd-rage post ( you know you're my man Mini), I've pasted Legion's Loot Policy below.

Legion Raid Loot Policy

For any raid run with at least two Legion members, raid loot will be rolled on. We only roll on bound to account/character raid items, tomes and shards. We also roll on BtA/BtC shards and items from all epic quests (not just the raid).

Before the main chest is opened, all guildies type in guild chat their bound item, shard and tome selection. Puggers do not select.


1. If a selected item drops, then it goes to the person that selected it.


2. If more than one person has it selected, then it is rolled on by the multiple selectors only. The person whose name it's under will define the rules for that roll.


3. If a non-selected item drops then it is put up for guild roll. It's important that if you want it just speak up. If you wait, it drags out the process and increases the chance of people dropping and losing that piece of loot.


4. Check with guildies first, but if there is no guild interest then offer it up to pugger roll.


5. Items are not to be rolled on for trade purposes or future considerations. This eliminates people picking an item they don't really need and wouldn't use in order to trade it to a guildmate who does need it for a nice item for themselves or just because they don't want a pugger to get it.


6. It is preferred that everyone stays in quest until all raid loot is pulled from chest. This is the only way to ensure the loot isn't accidentally given to someone who has already left and cannot get back in to reassign. If you do leave early, please announce and drop team immediately to reduce chance of misassignment of raid loot. Do not Finish Out until all Tomes are in the hands of the right person.


7. Dimension Doors and Greater Teleports should not be cast anywhere near the chest and should be announced first in game and in vent. This will eliminate the chance of going to click your raid item and instead hit a DD or GTP.


8. Puggers are allowed to do what they want with raid items they pull. They can take it, give it away, trade it, leave it in the chest or whatever. If they chose to give/trade it to a Legion member, it's the puggers right to give it to him/her even if that Legion member had not called it. If they are a selfish sorcerer that takes Madstone Boots over one of our Barbarians then feel free to hate and blacklist, but don't try to force him to hand over the goods. However, it is okay to give helpful suggestions like, "You know you can't cast while using those boots, right? I just want to make sure since once you pull it you can't trade it and maybe one of the fighter types could make better use of it." It's a fine line though, so caution is advised.


9. Legion takes care of their Casters and Healers, both Legion and Pugger alike. At the end of any raid, please stop and ask for the Healers & Casters to let us know what resources were consumed so we can compensate them. For Legion raids, the Raid Leader should do this, but other Legion members in the party should also make sure this happens. For non-Legion raids, we expect you to make an effort in compensating the healers and casters appropriately. Most times, simply asking is enough. Other times, a small amount can be given to help share your part of the raid cost.

Pestilence and Legion both roll within the guild on loot pulled by fellow guildies. It's part of the incentive, as I see it, to be in a guild ... working towards helping our crew out. The more people we can put in a raid the higher the likelyhood of getting what we need.

As to address some of the points mentioned above:

1. Your loot is your loot, this is how Turbine choose to make it. If you want only guildies to roll on it thats your choice.

2. Announcing policies ahead of time is certainly a nicety but expected? If you're the one putting the raid together feel free to state what you want done .. of course you're stating what you want others to do with their loot so good luck with that when they pull an item they or their in-party buddy wants.

3. All the non-guildies roll only ... I think this is a good idea and never understood why someone would toss a raid item to a guy with a guild tag that comprises 75% of the party make up when some poor schlub who is the only guy from a guild wants the same item. I suppose that we should again refer to #1.

Of course this is all my 2 cents which is not even worth that. I loved the old system where there was always 2 raid items and you could just solo the raids or shortman them and actually be rewarded for making a supreme effort and learning every aspect of the raid and crafting supremely uber toons.

/qft
well said the both of you
+1

[AkromaAoW]

I am all for your loot is your loot. If I pull a raid item I can't use, then I might do any of the following in no particular order:

1. Give it to a friend that needs it.
2. Give it to a party member that needs it.
3. Put it up for roll to every party member that needs it.

However, if I do 1 or 2, then I'm not going to roll on any other loot that someone else puts up for roll. IMO, that is just poor form.

Here's the thing, I think that it is this last point that is being described by the OP. I believe the OP describes a situation where a person might do something exclusive with his or her raid loot (as he or she should be able), and then double dip by rolling on some other raid loot.

If what a person decides to do with their loot excludes others who could use the item (which is fine by me - your loot is your loot), then for those who were in on the exclusive transction to roll on another item put up by those excluded is tactless.

As for being "privileged" to raid with "elite" guilds and getting preferential treatment, well, I don't even know what to write to that. I chuckled a little though...

Except for the Shroud, I don't raid outside of my guild any more. Heck, I don't even like raiding all that much - never have. I just do it to have social time with my guild and help out guildies - or to craft my gazillionth green steel item, something that I still find kind of fun.

In the end, it’s about being kind and fair to your fellow players. A lot of folks just don't get that or care, and it seems like many never will...

E.