"battle" = fail?

[Dags2171]

After playing for a while, I have come to realize a few things:

1) There is no such thing as a bad character, only bad players.
i.e. even the most 'gimped' builds can shine in the right hands, while even the best planned toon can get parties wiped without fail

2) Most quests succeed or fail when mistakes snowball to the point where the party either pulls together or gives up.
This make or break point happens most often with inexperience; either in the particular quest, or with your role in the party.

3) '1s' happen.
Even with the best gear and intentions, Murphy steps in and ruins the fun. What happens next is what really matters.

Which leads me to the real point of this post. Builds with "battle" in the title seem to cause most of the bad stuff in the above 3 items to happen when I am around. Namely the Battle Cleric and the Warchanter Bard. What causes this?
In my own view of the game, there is a much better battle cleric build out there. (Light red already has a name...pink) namely Paladins. If you are looking for a divine spellcaster that can raise the dead, heal your (self) friends, and buff the party that can really mix it up in melee, choose PALADIN. They are everything a battle cleric tries to be and more. Battle clerics, please stop confusing things by showing up to fill the 'healer' role and not healing. You built that character to be self-reliant, right?

And as for the oh so popular warchanter bard...figure it out already and stop doing what your build is not meant to do: tanking. DR/- 5 does not a tank make. Also, DR/-5 is not all that great anymore by the time you get it. The classes that really need DR get it themselves, and as for the ones that don't, they won't be taking too many hits that will be mitigated by a puny 5 DR. As far as I can tell, the best thing a warchanter can do is sing his (not usually) enhanced like crazy inspire courage song and stand in the back to give the casters something to hide behind long enough to AoE what gets by the actual tanks to death. I only need you to get anywhere near the main combat line once every 4-5 minutes to refresh the melee buff. (yes, if it is done right it is a pretty buff)

For some reason though, the battle clerics forget how to be clerics, and the warchanters forget how to chant, leaving the party without heals because a)you don't do that, or b)you took so much damage that you used up what we had. And when a party is without heals, observation 2 from above gets dropped on the party when it could have been an otherwise smooth run through even the most feared quests.

So, can somebody either explain to me what the point of a battle cleric is, or why warchanter is so awesome? Or if you are thinking about rolling one of them, bear this in mind before you do so that you might avoid the mistakes that all too many of your peers make around me.

[dkyle]

After playing for a while, I have come to realize a few things:

1) There is no such thing as a bad character, only bad players.
i.e. even the most 'gimped' builds can shine in the right hands, while even the best planned toon can get parties wiped without fail

2) Most quests succeed or fail when mistakes snowball to the point where the party either pulls together or gives up.
This make or break point happens most often with inexperience; either in the particular quest, or with your role in the party.

3) '1s' happen.
Even with the best gear and intentions, Murphy steps in and ruins the fun. What happens next is what really matters.

Which leads me to the real point of this post. Builds with "battle" in the title seem to cause most of the bad stuff in the above 3 items to happen when I am around. Namely the Battle Cleric and the Warchanter Bard. What causes this?

So there are no bad builds therefore Battle Cleric and Warchanter are bad builds? I don't see what the above 3 points has to do with the rest of your post; in fact, number one seems to contradict the entire rest of your post.

In my own view of the game, there is a much better battle cleric build out there. (Light red already has a name...pink) namely Paladins. If you are looking for a divine spellcaster that can raise the dead, heal your (self) friends, and buff the party that can really mix it up in melee, choose PALADIN. They are everything a battle cleric tries to be and more. Battle clerics, please stop confusing things by showing up to fill the 'healer' role and not healing. You built that character to be self-reliant, right?

Palis make awful clerics/healers. They don't have the SP or spells for it (no Heal or mass Cures). If you want a good healer that can also knock some heads around, Pali is not the right choice. Cleric/FvS is. I will say that a cleric/FvS that doesn't make their refusal/incapability to heal others known from the start is irresponsible and self-centered. Player problem, not build problem.

And as for the oh so popular warchanter bard...figure it out already and stop doing what your build is not meant to do: tanking. DR/- 5 does not a tank make. Also, DR/-5 is not all that great anymore by the time you get it. The classes that really need DR get it themselves, and as for the ones that don't, they won't be taking too many hits that will be mitigated by a puny 5 DR. As far as I can tell, the best thing a warchanter can do is sing his (not usually) enhanced like crazy inspire courage song and stand in the back to give the casters something to hide behind long enough to AoE what gets by the actual tanks to death. I only need you to get anywhere near the main combat line once every 4-5 minutes to refresh the melee buff. (yes, if it is done right it is a pretty buff)

Warchanter is not about the DR 5/. It's the +1 att/+2 damage on Inspire Courage Warchanter. And no, a Bard is not a "tank", but it can be just a survivable, or more so, as a typical rogue (assuming the popular 15brd/3rog/2ftr build). Said build is -1 att/-1 dmg on Inspire Courage compared to a pure bard Warchanter; hardly a big loss. Better than a pure Spellsinger, the alternative you would seem to advocate. A Bard that hangs back and does nothing but buff is a waste.

For some reason though, the battle clerics forget how to be clerics, and the warchanters forget how to chant, leaving the party without heals because a)you don't do that, or b)you took so much damage that you used up what we had. And when a party is without heals, observation 2 from above gets dropped on the party when it could have been an otherwise smooth run through even the most feared quests.

Can't speak to clerics, but a Bard that doesn't sing is pretty worthless. If you're running into them, then that's a player problem, not a build problem (see you point number 1 above). I can assure you, in addition to beating on portals, and Harry and trash mobs and so forth, my bard keeps her songs on the party.

I'm curious what level range you're referring to, because at end game, pretty much everyone takes a bunch of damage, seeing as most dump AC; in fact, a self Displacing melee like a Warchanter is going to take a lot less damage than most vs non-purple-names.

[taurean430]

After playing for a while, I have come to realize a few things:

1) There is no such thing as a bad character, only bad players.
i.e. even the most 'gimped' builds can shine in the right hands, while even the best planned toon can get parties wiped without fail

2) Most quests succeed or fail when mistakes snowball to the point where the party either pulls together or gives up.
This make or break point happens most often with inexperience; either in the particular quest, or with your role in the party.

3) '1s' happen.
Even with the best gear and intentions, Murphy steps in and ruins the fun. What happens next is what really matters.

Which leads me to the real point of this post. Builds with "battle" in the title seem to cause most of the bad stuff in the above 3 items to happen when I am around. Namely the Battle Cleric and the Warchanter Bard. What causes this?
In my own view of the game, there is a much better battle cleric build out there. (Light red already has a name...pink) namely Paladins. If you are looking for a divine spellcaster that can raise the dead, heal your (self) friends, and buff the party that can really mix it up in melee, choose PALADIN. They are everything a battle cleric tries to be and more. Battle clerics, please stop confusing things by showing up to fill the 'healer' role and not healing. You built that character to be self-reliant, right?

And as for the oh so popular warchanter bard...figure it out already and stop doing what your build is not meant to do: tanking. DR/- 5 does not a tank make. Also, DR/-5 is not all that great anymore by the time you get it. The classes that really need DR get it themselves, and as for the ones that don't, they won't be taking too many hits that will be mitigated by a puny 5 DR. As far as I can tell, the best thing a warchanter can do is sing his (not usually) enhanced like crazy inspire courage song and stand in the back to give the casters something to hide behind long enough to AoE what gets by the actual tanks to death. I only need you to get anywhere near the main combat line once every 4-5 minutes to refresh the melee buff. (yes, if it is done right it is a pretty buff)

For some reason though, the battle clerics forget how to be clerics, and the warchanters forget how to chant, leaving the party without heals because a)you don't do that, or b)you took so much damage that you used up what we had. And when a party is without heals, observation 2 from above gets dropped on the party when it could have been an otherwise smooth run through even the most feared quests.

So, can somebody either explain to me what the point of a battle cleric is, or why warchanter is so awesome? Or if you are thinking about rolling one of them, bear this in mind before you do so that you might avoid the mistakes that all too many of your peers make around me.

What I find to be most interesting about your bias is your implied lack of self sufficiency. I'll add as well that there seem to be some strong undertones of bad leadership at work. I say this because, you can simply ask someone joining your lfm if they are a healing build or not. It would likely save you a lot of frustrations I would presuppose.

I'm curious really as to why it is that you need someone following your toon around with the sole job of spamming heals at you? I have yet to experience this outside of a raid.

You really shouldn't need a healbot to follow you around. That seems to be the source of your issue, judging by what you've said here.

[Krag]

And as for the oh so popular warchanter bard...figure it out already and stop doing what your build is not meant to do: tanking. DR/- 5 does not a tank make. Also, DR/-5 is not all that great anymore by the time you get it. The classes that really need DR get it themselves, and as for the ones that don't, they won't be taking too many hits that will be mitigated by a puny 5 DR. As far as I can tell, the best thing a warchanter can do is sing his (not usually) enhanced like crazy inspire courage song and stand in the back to give the casters something to hide behind long enough to AoE what gets by the actual tanks to death. I only need you to get anywhere near the main combat line once every 4-5 minutes to refresh the melee buff. (yes, if it is done right it is a pretty buff)

I find your lack of competence disturbing.
Please, do not embarass yourself any further and stop posting nonsense.

[vVAnjilaVv]

While I agree with your position on battle clerics somewhat...I completely disagree with what you saying about Warchanters. Most warchanters are melee focused and do quite a fine job at it if they know what they are doing......to say that a bards only job is to sing their songs is pretty narrow IMO....they are capable of quite a bit....be it a Warchanter, Spellsinger, or Virtuoso....and I really haven't partied with too many bards that do not give their Inspire songs....and those songs at high levels make a huge difference in a groups DPS.

A well played battle cleric is very effective.......but I am talking about someone who can hold their own in melee and heal and maybe offensively cast effectively, depending on how much they put into thier melee stats. Really, except against maybe the toughest enemies....even a low STR cleric can do fine against trash mobs.

I think how u mentioned there are no bad builds only bad players and then went on to persecute the battle cleric and warchanter is quite contradictory.

Battle Clerics and Warchanters do just fine if they in fact are played......by a good player.

[Impaqt]

After playing for a while, I have come to realize a few things:

1) There is no such thing as a bad character, only bad players.

Wait, Hold on...

How can you start your Thread out with this line, then go into a rant about "Battle Clerics"?

It wasnt a bad "Battle Cleric" It was a bad player. get over it an move on.

[Kintro]

Battle Clerics and Warchanters do just fine if they in fact are played......by a good player.

That's the key. I played a healing/casting Cleric before attempting to play a battle version.

[Phidius]

Considering that my non-battle-builds were all deleted long ago, I'd have to say that "battle" != fail.

Your observations (1-3) look pretty good, but your conclusions don't seem to have much to do with them.

The best thing about being a "battle" build is that when there's a slacker in your party, they only slow you down if you're feeling generous enough to wait for them. I'll bet that the baddle clerics really hamstring the parties with the "know your role" mentality, though.

[Dags2171]

Of course, when you make it to end game content you pretty much have it figured out. The level range between 5-10 for free to play (like I am) is where the quests become hard enough to require a party (assuming you are planning on doing them on higher than normal difficulty) and that is where my trouble with these 2 builds comes from.
Yes, a good player can make a pure int/cha fighter stomp everything in their way, but even an average player should be successful with most builds as long as they realize what it is supposed to do. So yes, I agree with your sentiment Anjila, what matters most is the player behind the toon. As far as the warchanter goes (in the low-mid level ranges) you NEED to know what you are doing or things will go south quickly. Self buffing is about all you can handle with a warchanter at those levels (outside of song) and the warchanters I have come across put all too much reliance on the /-5. If the point of the warchanter is to sing, displace, and DPS, then that sounds good. I am just not seeing that happen in the level ranges indicated.

And taurean, it is not that i need a healbot to follow me around, I just need there to be a little bit of health there for when the '1s' start showing up. (failed saves mostly) Yes, any build could soak all the Heal SP, but the 2 I am talking about here seem to cause most of it to dissapear at the level ranges stated. Both of the builds could contribute positively to the heals available in the party, but what I have seen (and maybe I just never come across a battle cleric or warchanter worth their salt) instills the desire to say what I said as a wake up call, and to get some intellegent discourse going on the topic.

Dkyle: My understanding of what a battle cleric is supposed to do is pretty much a description of paladin. Yes, paladins make lousy healers, but so do battle clerics. If I am wrong, let me know; but what I have read seems to indicate that battle clerics will be doing almost nil for healing also. Thats fine, I just think that if you want melee go melee, and if you want to do it the hard way, you are going to have to seriously evaluate your own abilities and figure out if you can really make the build do what it is designed to do (or not do).

So far, thank you for the input. I did not realise that most warchanter builds are 'supposed to' add DPS. I just usually see them rely on ironskin and sword-n-board til they splat. And for some reason, about half of the battle clerics I see can't even keep themselves healed, much less contribute to the cause.
I will hold out hope that someday I can see one of these builds played right so that I can glory in the awesome that they should(?) be.

[Steveohio]

So sorry that people aren't your dedicated heal and buff bots, while your o-so uber melee build isn't self sufficient enough to do its role.

As the above poster stated, your points 1-3 are right on.

However you have no concept of how the builds are supposed to play, because your doing F2P content, and most people that know what they are doing arn't. Also, most good battle clerics are probably soloing that content that your groups seem to have trouble with.

Apaprently us 550+hp, 30+ str, fully maxxed out TWF and healing feated battle healers should roll up paladins. Because holding a mouse button down, and pressing a healing hotkey is just too hard for us.

[Impaqt]

Of course, when you make it to end game content you pretty much have it figured out. The level range between 5-10 for free to play (like I am) is where the quests become hard enough to require a party (assuming you are planning on doing them on higher than normal difficulty) and that is where my trouble with these 2 builds comes from.

So you believe the player makes a different or you dont. WHat is it? How can you even pretend to believe the first line of your OP and then go into this rant?

Yes, a good player can make a pure int/cha fighter stomp everything in their way, but even an average player should be successful with most builds as long as they realize what it is supposed to do. So yes, I agree with your sentiment Anjila, what matters most is the player behind the toon. As far as the warchanter goes (in the low-mid level ranges) you NEED to know what you are doing or things will go south quickly.

Wrong. "Going SOuth" is rarely, If ever, the faut of ONE player. You wanna blame a Warchanter, I guess thats your perogative, but come on. How exactly does that ONE out of 6 (Or 12) force the party to fail?

Self buffing is about all you can handle with a warchanter at those levels (outside of song) and the warchanters I have come across put all too much reliance on the /-5. If the point of the warchanter is to sing, displace, and DPS, then that sounds good. I am just not seeing that happen in the level ranges indicated.

Are you kidding me? "Its all about the player! But if you Play this class, your worthless?" FIgure out what you actually believe before you bother respoonding further tho this thread.

And taurean, it is not that i need a healbot to follow me around, I just need there to be a little bit of health there for when the '1s' start showing up. (failed saves mostly) Yes, any build could soak all the Heal SP, but the 2 I am talking about here seem to cause most of it to dissapear at the level ranges stated. Both of the builds could contribute positively to the heals available in the party, but what I have seen (and maybe I just never come across a battle cleric or warchanter worth their salt) instills the desire to say what I said as a wake up call, and to get some intellegent discourse going on the topic.

Here we go againw ith the HJEAL ME!!!!.... What are you actually Playing? Class? do you consider yourself a "Good Player"?

Dkyle: My understanding of what a battle cleric is supposed to do is pretty much a description of paladin. Yes, paladins make lousy healers, but so do battle clerics. If I am wrong, let me know; but what I have read seems to indicate that battle clerics will be doing almost nil for healing also. Thats fine, I just think that if you want melee go melee, and if you want to do it the hard way, you are going to have to seriously evaluate your own abilities and figure out if you can really make the build do what it is designed to do (or not do).

Your understanding fails. you are wrong. a "Bad"le Cleric cares nothing about anyone else inthe party. "Battle" Clerics heal and fight. Its what they were designed to do back inthe 70's when D&D was create. The awesome thing about a well played "Battle Cleric" is that you will rarely even notice that the cleric is indeed meleeing.

So far, thank you for the input. I did not realise that most warchanter builds are 'supposed to' add DPS. I just usually see them rely on ironskin and sword-n-board til they splat. And for some reason, about half of the battle clerics I see can't even keep themselves healed, much less contribute to the cause.
I will hold out hope that someday I can see one of these builds played right so that I can glory in the awesome that they should(?) be.

weak.

[Missing_Minds]

Wrong. "Going SOuth" is rarely, If ever, the faut of ONE player. You wanna blame a Warchanter, I guess thats your perogative, but come on. How exactly does that ONE out of 6 (Or 12) force the party to fail?

When a bad player runs ahead, agros everything, then comes running back (screaming "heal me" is optional) to the party with 20+ mobs in tow.

Or when that one player kills an mob that was monlogueing so the script can't continue properly and the quest becomes incomplete. (granted, this one is more Turbine's fault.)

Dying in lava in Von 5 while holding the Voice still fubar the party?

Rough Monday though? I expected you, A_D, or Borror0 in here an hour ago.

[Carlll]

Clerics lose very little healing ability when speccing for melee. It's mostly a question of play style, if the player pays enough attention to be able to fight while still keeping an eye on the party's health.

The time spent for casting healing spells is low so might as well fight in between healing. Instead of just standing around.

A Battle Cleric will have a bit less mana than a healbot gimp. That's it. Not exactly a "lousy healer".
A FvS built for melee combat can even outheal any healbot Cleric.

Paladins and Battle Clerics have nothing in common. The Paladin has the potential for higher DPS while the Battle Cleric is far far better at healing.

Battle Clerics might have less tolerance for gimp melee than healbots i'd imagine... Afterall, they can kill the monsters themselves.
Since they kill stuff while not healing, they will also be less prone to keep ppl at 100% all the time and rely more on the bigger heals to spend less time casting. Typically, this is also more mana efficient healing; But often, healbots will keep players at 100% with wands etc, which might have many players spoiled to expect an unrealistic pampering.

So, it's not that they cant heal you. They either dont want to heal you, or dont pay attention. Take your pick.

But yes, Battle Clerics should heal the party.

[justagame]

Is it me, or did we once upon a time spend a great deal of angst over the BC question, coming to the conclusion that it IS the player, not the build, and that battle clerics can be very effective, only to go back to square one when DDO: EU launched?

IMO, it's a combination of a few things:

1. An influx of players coming from a game where dedicated healers were presumably the norm. Never before have I encountered so many players that have insisted that quest "x" could not not be run without a dedicated healer. It seems like we've taken a giant step backwards -- there's a new, sizeable population segment that once again views clerics as nothing but nanny's. You don't even hear the term "cleric" anymore, just "healer".

2. There ARE some bad clerics out there. I've seen some odd multiclass combos to be sure, but many more pure clerics who are just plain inattentive. IMO, that's the problem -- clerics who are woefully inattentive, or in some cases, just in the early part of the learning curve. I have met very very few clerics who did not WANT to heal when required -- they were just slow on the trigger, or had attention lapses. It's not the level of fighter, or monk, or paladin, whatever, that makes a cleric a bad cleric -- it's the player.

Unfortunately, #1 and #2 have combined to re-produce the once widely held and now discredited view that "battle cleric = bad cleric". I might expand that definition to read "cleric who isn't my own personal nannybot = bad cleric". I sincerely urge players, especially newer ones, and the OP, to view builds (of all classes) with a more open mind. There's a lot more flavor to DDO than tank-dps-healer.

Having said, that I also urge new clerics to make sure they've mastered the basics of healing BEFORE trying some of the more complicated multiclass options. It is very very easy to get caught up in a battle and forget to see that 2 of your fellow party members are taking heavy damage, and could use a quick heal to stay alive. Keeping track when you're a pure cleric is hard enough -- so it's doubly hard to handle switching between fighting & healing (in terms of both attention and item loadouts) if you haven't even learned how to heal effectively when needed. This will help give folks less fodder for the "battle clerics stink" complaints.

[sirgog]

Why do clueless people keep posting 'play a paladin, they are better than battleclerics and can heal?'

Paladins can not even heal themselves, let alone a party, except for three to five medium-sized emergency heals (or at the lowest levels where wands don't work). No mass cures. No access to the Heal spell, much less Mass Heal. Paladins are melee DPS (and can be pretty good at it), or tanks, or a hybrid of both.

Rogues are better healers than Paladins, as they usually have the UMD to use Heal scrolls, which few paladins have.


As for your comments about warchanters - I'll treat them with the contempt they deserve. They are the most sought-after bard subtype in raids and Epic content for a good reason.

After playing for a while, I have come to realize a few things:

1) There is no such thing as a bad character, only bad players.
i.e. even the most 'gimped' builds can shine in the right hands, while even the best planned toon can get parties wiped without fail

2) Most quests succeed or fail when mistakes snowball to the point where the party either pulls together or gives up.
This make or break point happens most often with inexperience; either in the particular quest, or with your role in the party.

3) '1s' happen.
Even with the best gear and intentions, Murphy steps in and ruins the fun. What happens next is what really matters.

Which leads me to the real point of this post. Builds with "battle" in the title seem to cause most of the bad stuff in the above 3 items to happen when I am around. Namely the Battle Cleric and the Warchanter Bard. What causes this?
In my own view of the game, there is a much better battle cleric build out there. (Light red already has a name...pink) namely Paladins. If you are looking for a divine spellcaster that can raise the dead, heal your (self) friends, and buff the party that can really mix it up in melee, choose PALADIN. They are everything a battle cleric tries to be and more. Battle clerics, please stop confusing things by showing up to fill the 'healer' role and not healing. You built that character to be self-reliant, right?

And as for the oh so popular warchanter bard...figure it out already and stop doing what your build is not meant to do: tanking. DR/- 5 does not a tank make. Also, DR/-5 is not all that great anymore by the time you get it. The classes that really need DR get it themselves, and as for the ones that don't, they won't be taking too many hits that will be mitigated by a puny 5 DR. As far as I can tell, the best thing a warchanter can do is sing his (not usually) enhanced like crazy inspire courage song and stand in the back to give the casters something to hide behind long enough to AoE what gets by the actual tanks to death. I only need you to get anywhere near the main combat line once every 4-5 minutes to refresh the melee buff. (yes, if it is done right it is a pretty buff)

For some reason though, the battle clerics forget how to be clerics, and the warchanters forget how to chant, leaving the party without heals because a)you don't do that, or b)you took so much damage that you used up what we had. And when a party is without heals, observation 2 from above gets dropped on the party when it could have been an otherwise smooth run through even the most feared quests.

So, can somebody either explain to me what the point of a battle cleric is, or why warchanter is so awesome? Or if you are thinking about rolling one of them, bear this in mind before you do so that you might avoid the mistakes that all too many of your peers make around me.

[sirgog]

Apaprently us 550+hp, 30+ str, fully maxxed out TWF and healing feated battle healers should roll up paladins. Because holding a mouse button down, and pressing a healing hotkey is just too hard for us.

Not to mention, throwing Quickened Mass Heal every time it's needed, something no Paladin has ever found a way to do* - usually keeping alive the 360hp, 27 Str, 25% Fort fighter that's complaining about the 'battle cleric'.


(That's not an attack on the decent fighters out there, I know plenty of you are past the 360hp, 27 Str, 25% Fort days by level 11).




*except Clerics with one to three levels of Paladin, or some weird FvS multiclasses

[Impaqt]

When a bad player runs ahead, agros everything, then comes running back (screaming "heal me" is optional) to the party with 20+ mobs in tow.

THats just a Catalyst. Its happened to me lots of times without a Party Wipe. WHen 1 Bad Player pull smobs back to 5 more bad players, yes, that sa bad situation.

Or when that one player kills an mob that was monlogueing so the script can't continue properly and the quest becomes incomplete. (granted, this one is more Turbine's fault.)

Dying in lava in Von 5 while holding the Voice still fubar the party?

nope. Plenty of ways around that

Rough Monday though? I expected you, A_D, or Borror0 in here an hour ago.

[nicro]

nope. Plenty of ways around that

It's a bit off topic, but I'm interested in how a party can recover in VoN 5 after someone swan dives into the lava with the voice.

[twix]

You had the first part right about theres no bad toons just bad players but the bashing of battle clerics and warchanters? LOL. Let me see your melee fight the pit fiend in shroud elite while helping keep the party up and spamming mass protect.Or let me see a paladin do that lol.Ive done it multiple times with my battle cleric.I keep the party up while adding melee dps to it.How is this bad?

A warchanter bard played well can bring more to a group then just about any other class in the game.Not sure what your hate is on what bards do.Maybe the bard is zerging and your no where near them when they play songs?
Maybe everyone you've played with sucks ?Sounds to me like you expect constant nanny attention via heals and songs while you kill things.In this game our characters are versatile.A healer does not just "heal" and a bard does not just "sing".

[Aashrym]

The level range between 5-10 for free to play (like I am) is where the quests become hard enough to require a party (assuming you are planning on doing them on higher than normal difficulty) and that is where my trouble with these 2 builds comes from.

Classes can still solo these levels on higher than normal difficulty. Perhaps you need to check for some build advice?