Virtuoso

[Nashako]

I and others helped Sanligo come up with this pure bard Virtuoso build a while ago. It's human, but fairly easy to adapt to halfling or drow, though you'd lose a feat.

It's also fairly easy to take any Warchanter build and turn it into a Virt; just drop PA & WF and take your Virt pre-req + another feat instead. You don't even need high CHA to have a high Perform skill.

The tough part about playing a Virt isn't the build, it's the tactics: i.e., learning to use your CC songs effectively to stun as many monsters as possible without getting killed in the process; and more importantly training your teammates how to fight effectively so they don't run around undoing all your hard work by hitting every stunned monster they see, then complaining about how Virts suck compared to WCs.

That is exactly what I was looking for, ubongwah! I actually laughed at the "training your teammates" part lol

In that other thread, they talk about running up to a group of monsters already playing Fascinate (and I'm assuming Enthrall works basically the same?), and it will hit right as they are running up to the mob. Again, I'm assuming this will take some practice to get the timing down right so you'll be able to hit as many people as possible.

Another thing; I've heard about the songs that basically fascinate undead and constructs. These are two songs separate from Fascinate, right? Does Enthrall do this, or will those songs still be needed?

And finally (for now), how does Suggestion work? You fascinate a mob, then use suggestion and... nobody ever says what they do after that.

[Darkrok]

That is exactly what I was looking for, ubongwah! I actually laughed at the "training your teammates" part lol

In that other thread, they talk about running up to a group of monsters already playing Fascinate (and I'm assuming Enthrall works basically the same?), and it will hit right as they are running up to the mob. Again, I'm assuming this will take some practice to get the timing down right so you'll be able to hit as many people as possible.

Another thing; I've heard about the songs that basically fascinate undead and constructs. These are two songs separate from Fascinate, right? Does Enthrall do this, or will those songs still be needed?

And finally (for now), how does Suggestion work? You fascinate a mob, then use suggestion and... nobody ever says what they do after that.

It's the same song to do undead and constructs...you just have to spend 4 ap's each for the abilities.

[BoBoDaClown]

As far as FOP, I like it. Otherwise right now my 13th lvl Bard would have a 10 Will compared to a 21 Will. I put no points into Wisdom and take FOP.

AS a 20 Bard, I'm not sure when I last failed a will save that mattered. Will is my highest save (Without fop, having low wis,). FOM mitigates a lot of the need for it. I would have thought around your level, roughly, FOP becomes less usefull.

You might want to try running without FOP, see how many will saves you fail, and then put it back on if you are unhappy...

That said... each to their own!

[Valindria]

AS a 20 Bard, I'm not sure when I last failed a will save that mattered. Will is my highest save (Without fop, having low wis,). FOM mitigates a lot of the need for it. I would have thought around your level, roughly, FOP becomes less usefull.

You might want to try running without FOP, see how many will saves you fail, and then put it back on if you are unhappy...

That said... each to their own!

Also it isn't too hard to get 10 Ore for the helm in Relic of a Sovereign Past. It gives +6 to will saves (provided you don't have another source of + wis)

[bunitchu]

well...

I have a 15BRD/3ROG/2FTR...and Enthrallment is really easy to land. Don't feel that you have to take skill focus and etc to make it work. Just get a Bard's Cloak and call it a day. Also +6 CHR Skills item from shroud is nice too for perform and UMD and Haggle.

You don't have to really build for it.

Building a Bard for Enthrallment is kinda like building a ROG just for traps. You are short-changing yourself and your party.

Though if you want to be a Crowd-Control master...make a Generalist Wizard or Sorc and they will be better than a CC Specced Bard. If you make a crowd control Specialist WIZ or SOR...they would be even better.

well, i agree with most, but i really dont think that wizards/sorcs focused for CC can b as good as the bard, because even though they have more ways of CCing with spells, the best dc they would pull would b very likely a 40 or something close to that, while a bard drow would b like this roughly:

assuming you focus on charisma and are a drow and start with 20 char

20 + 6 from item + 4 from a tome(if u find 1) + 5 from lvl ups +5 from enhancements = 40 charisma roughly, not counting some extra stuff, thats a +15 on the mod, now, look at ur perform:

perform max rank 23
charisma bonus 15
item bonus 13(dunno if there are +15 skill item to perform)
enhancements 4
virtuoso 2
feat 3

summing all it would b 60 total bonus for perform + a d20 dc for mobs to overcome with nothing but their will + a d20, in another words, a mob with 40 will would need to roll a 20 to have ur bonus without rolling the d20, and dunno if here a 20 = auto sucess on saves, and even if it is, the odds of a crowd of 10 mobs have over 2 free mobs, is really small, and if you go and do the mass suggestion instead of the enthrall, whatever mob doesnt get caught will b plummered by the rest that will b controlled by u, then all u gotta do is break charm 1 by 1 letting the remaining mobs plummer the recently freed mob, untill only 1 mob is left standing.

the disadvantage is that wizards can cast their stuff many more times, and for bards to do such things on quests, they are ditching songs that would b buffing the party, however, i see virtuosos more as CC than buffer, and as long as he knows haste and some other buffs asides from songs, i believe they can b more useful for CC thaan a wizard.

and if you make ur bard a warforged, and mix 6 lvls of wizard palemaster, u can have 2 songs to fascinate even constructs and undeads, meaning, nearly anything on game will b affected by ur song, the possible disadvantage for ur dc is the loss of some ranks in perform and -2 charisma, meaning a loss of at most 7 on perform, still leaving the dc on 53, however i dunno if such build would work or not

so i vote more on virtuosos for CC than a wizard considering the huge diference in both dcs, however the idea of a mage focused for CC is actually interesting ^^

[bartosy]

man you would be amazed how many mobs still save vs a dc 70~90 perform tho at least epic mobs do and some normal mobs too.

I guess they do have a 20 roll also wich automaticly saves them from any harm.. maybe epic mobs save on a 19 also cause well in adq i was trying to mezz most mobs wich worked but at one time i had 3 efreetis behind me and 2 out of the 3 saved and this is.. with a 67 in perform.making it a dc67 will save at least.

ofc the chances are there that 2 out of the 3 mobs rolled a 20 but yea.. bit slim if you ask me , i saw a lot more save vs it then just those 2..

[lifestaker]

assuming you focus on charisma and are a drow and start with 20 char

20 + 6 from item + 4 from a tome(if u find 1) + 5 from lvl ups +5 from enhancements = 40 charisma roughly,

Cha= 20 start + 6 item + 3 exceptional + 4 tome + 5 lvl + 5 enchantments + 1 litany = 44 cha with only having to get a litany and using a few larges to finish of a cha weapon from shroud. i would do the 3x good blunt weapon just for undead hitting.

Your preform will be an overkill so long as you don't pull an Ogly and not put ranks into it, but you will find that unless you play with the proper people your holding songs will be next to nothing. All to often you will find that bad tanks hit everything till it breaks and go to the next mob, but tanks have fun doing what they can to role play into their int score. With the right group of people though the game of cc goes by swiftly from low lvls to epic.

OK, with feats in mind though the best thing you can do is ensure your survival over a few sp. In other words toughness and FoP should outrank taking mental toughness (105 sp @ 20) or improved mental toughness (yet another 105 sp at @20). Spell focus feats I am against just due to the fact that your songs are more effective in most cases and when you find they are not you should have irresistible dance.

Just ensure you put your ranks into preform, haggle(if you do not have a bard already and can use a haggling toon), UMD, and if you can afford it diplomacy(to much aggro can be the death of you) but it is not a must (fits into some play-styles more then others).

[bunitchu]

man you would be amazed how many mobs still save vs a dc 70~90 perform tho at least epic mobs do and some normal mobs too.

I guess they do have a 20 roll also wich automaticly saves them from any harm.. maybe epic mobs save on a 19 also cause well in adq i was trying to mezz most mobs wich worked but at one time i had 3 efreetis behind me and 2 out of the 3 saved and this is.. with a 67 in perform.making it a dc67 will save at least.

ofc the chances are there that 2 out of the 3 mobs rolled a 20 but yea.. bit slim if you ask me , i saw a lot more save vs it then just those 2..

yup, they very likely rolled a 20 for saving against it, and 2 out of 3 mobs rolling that shows that ur pretty unlucky xD, but even so, against such a perform, you have nearly all mobs on game stuck on that 5% chance of not getting enthralled/controled against enthrall/mass suggestion, and assuming mobs w/o the true seeing or see invisibility will stop chasing you when you cast invisibility, you can still get invisible and retry the enthrall/mass suggestion on the ones that saved against it, that supposing they werent mobbed by the ones that didnt have the luck to hit the 20 on the roll.

[unbongwah]

In that other thread, they talk about running up to a group of monsters already playing Fascinate (and I'm assuming Enthrall works basically the same?), and it will hit right as they are running up to the mob.

Fascinate and the other CC songs take effect at the end of the song, which takes a few seconds to play. Songs can't be interrupted like spells (i.e., no Concentration check), but you can get killed, stunned, etc. before finishing it. So a common tactic is to fire off your song while you're still out of aggro range, then run at the mob so your song ends just as you get in the middle of them. Another option is to use stealth or Invisibility to get close; singing doesn't break either mode the way casting a spell or swinging a weapon would, but of course monsters can hear you!

As you say, it takes a bit of practice. Try just running around the Marketplace firing off your songs to figure out how long it takes and how far you can go before it finishes. If you're partnering with a tank, another option is to have them draw as much aggro is possible, then you come from behind to CC the mobs.

Another thing; I've heard about the songs that basically fascinate undead and constructs. These are two songs separate from Fascinate, right? Does Enthrall do this, or will those songs still be needed?

Music of the Dead is "Fascinate for Undead" and is available at bard 6 for Virts; Music of Makers is "Fascinate for Constructs" and is available at bard 9 for Virts. [Non-Virt bards can take them at bard 10 if they have the Extra Song IV enh.] Enthrall is Fascinate 2.0 - it adds a -2 to-hit & Will save penalty to mobs even if they're unstunned.

And finally (for now), how does Suggestion work? You fascinate a mob, then use suggestion and... nobody ever says what they do after that.

Suggestion works like the Charm spell, IIRC, except it consumes a song usage and can only be used on a Fascinated monster; so doesn't work with MotD, MoM, or Enthrall.