paladin start build

[Gercho]

Elraido, if you factor the same buffs, you will have less damage with one hand than psymun with twf, you shouldnt keep arguing about that, the builds are different, and have different options, you have some advantages and his build has others, besides, he wasnt using his own build for maximun dps benefit, but he can do just switching a couple enhancements...

[elraido]

Elraido, if you factor the same buffs, you will have less damage with one hand than psymun with twf, you shouldnt keep arguing about that, the builds are different, and have different options, you have some advantages and his build has others, besides, he wasnt using his own build for maximun dps benefit, but he can do just switching a couple enhancements...

Base damage yes. But like mentioned before, he doesn't have divine sacrifice. Also, if he didn't know triple pos came with raise on them, I doubt he has one. In all honestly, I think all the secondary damage I am doing, I am just ever so slightly below him in damage....frankly to the point where it doesn't even matter. And with the change to bastard swords coming up....the glancing blows will make a S&B interesting to say the least.

Also, he was wondering about the 21 on vambrances....daggertooth belt increasing the dex mod 2 more might do it.

[Gercho]

as i said, he can get DS just switching some enhancements... your build only gets +4 from DM IV over DM II, +1 from str and 2d6 from DS III over DS II, all other things could be the same with the same buffs weapons if he switches some enhancements, really twice as many attacks is much more damage than +5 base and 2d6, really, from activating DS II he will get 14 D6 (2 attacks per activation) while you get 9 D6 one attack per activation...

[elraido]

as i said, he can get DS just switching some enhancements... your build only gets +4 from DM IV over DM II and +1 from str, all other things could be the same with the same buffs weapons if he switches some enhancements, really twice as many attacks is much more damage than +5 base...

I don't think he has power attack either from his break down of how he got my damage output. That would be 10 Base. That is like saying he has a 20 str vs a 40 str. And frankly do you see him swapping out enhancements? He is set in stone about what he has and how it is the greatest. So, while yes he COULD swap them out and have twice as many attacks as me to do a LOT more DPS, I doubt he will....leaving me just a short step behind him. And vs raid boss's anyways, I do go to two handed fighting. Triple pos one hand, holy sword in the other. AC doesn't mean anything vs most of them.

Honestly, I think this is just about flexability. I know I can do a ton more dps with my guy if I lesser res him and put more points into dex and make him a TWF, and keep around the same AC.

[Steiner-Davion]

... and if I use my pearl of power and my wizardy items... it's up to 850...

These items do not stack.

[Steiner-Davion]

16 STR
15 DEX
10 CON
8 INT
14 WIS
14 CHA

Your build vs. my build... you have 20 more HP, 1 extra turn attempt and +1 to saves... I have 450 unbuffed HP, and 35 unbuffed to all saves... My paladin isn't hurt at all. However, 350 vs. 650 sp allows me to buff resists and SW Pact on others, along with keeping zeal and divine favor on myself, removing curses, removing paralysis etc. You can't tell me that my stats hurt my Paladin. At all...

Ah, YHes you just gimped your DPS output big time.

All of the Paladin's Cool DPS output is based upon Charisma. Smite Evil/Exalted Smite Evil, based upon Charisma. Hell even your Number of Lay on Hands is affected by your Charisma.

[Steiner-Davion]

Funny you say that... 1, I'm usually the last man standing, and 2, 12 CON vs. 10 CON is only 20HP once you're level 20.

I've been running with this build for 3 months, and playing this game for 5... I have not noticed any issue with having a 10 base CON.

As someone who has been playing this game for over 4 years, let me be among the first to tell you, that you do not have enough experience to back up your claim.

Sure 20 hit points may not seem like a lot, but when a monster or spell can one shot you, that 20 additional HP can easily be the difference between life and death, success and failure. Your Cleric (if you insist on having one, which you don't by the way) having enough mana to keep you and the rest of the party on their feet.

[lord_of_rage]

LMAO. You're telling me I'm wrong about something that I have done...

1... I short myself on resitance aura and keep the saves aura...

And what DPS am I missing out on? The only DPS enhancement is Divine Might. I'm not going to use Divine Sacrafice as I feel it's too costly to be doing an extra 5 damage to yourself... What else is there?

And where do you get a 21 from for the Vambraces? Armor +15, 3 Dex, 1 ritual = 19...

And Combat Expertise is a stance... so that's another 5... that's not included in my 67 AC...

Without the -5 to attack from combat expertise, I have a higher AC than you... And unless you can explain how you get an extra +3 from the Vambraces... You have a 59 while I have a 61 self buffed...

and without a shield, if I had Combat Expertise I'd have an 82 vs. your 85 ac... But I'd rather not use a feat to have a -5 to attack...

I have a higher TWF AC... Hell even WITH your shields I still have similar AC... I have evasion, and you do a bit more DPS... Can you raise dead? Do you have 40% Healing Amp? You guys are cracking me up! Your builds are NOT better than mine... nor is my build better than any of yours.. Give it a rest guys... seriously... The facts are there... Don't waste your time posting a "Better" AC than mine until you read what I posted and show the same thing accordingly... And with accurate information.

The only reason I'm coming back to this thread is to see if someone can show me how to IMPROVE my build... not tell me how their build is "better" than mine by using wrong info.

You only get the +1 bonus while centered. So if you are using non monk weapons you will not get it. If you are please confirm. Ill be sure to submit the bug report to let the devs know its not working as intended.

Epic vambraces as posted 15+1 ritual +3 dex +2 max dex blue slotted=21. I did put that in the calculations you are responding to.

CE stacks with DOS. CE is self buffed. If I need the AC CE stays on. YOU DO NOT HAVE COMBAT EXPERTISE. So stop attempting to factor CE in to your calcs. Also 19+2 is 21 19 +3 is 22. So its 2 ac not 3. So again self buffed I have a 67 twf ac .SELF BUFFED . Without DOS stance. That is higher than yours. I do more dps. I can imtimi tank . I can raise dead its called scrolls. I have posted accurate info. None of that info is wrong. Or off. You are right the facts are there. My ac twf and with a shield is higher both self buffed and raid buffed.

I have the umd to throw scrolls and I do. While you waste aps on paladin redemption. I have 20% healing amp. I have 30% if I use the finger necklae. Im not wasting a gear slot on leviks when I want the ac. You truly show your lack of understanding with the class. Divine might, divine sacrifice, and Exalted smite are dps enhancements. I guess you havent got into hard runs if you feel DS isnt worth it. Lets see Ill run out of Exalted smites before I run out of hp and sp. So I can keep ripping out DS. Im getting heals anyway. Or I can self heal. Oh and DS is light dmg. Very few mobs in the game if any are immune to it.

So again your "Ultimate defender" is surpassed by a relativly standard dos tank. You have been playing for 5 months. Ive been playing for over 2.5 years.I have rolled and rerolled paladins. I currently have 3. Two KOTCs and my DOS.I dont know everything but I know quite a bit. You on the other hand, dont know enough about what you are talking about to be as arrogant as you are.

The planned lesser rezin a few hrs. Ill lose 1 ac, and 1str if I dont get my +4 cha tome and be 18 pally 1 ftr 1 rogue. My umd will be:

24base
7cha
6 cha skills
3 bunny hat
4 gh
44 no gear swapping.


That means no fail scrolls anytime I need them. IE raise dead, ressurection,heal, mass cures,gh, fire shield,....... So yeah he raises just fine. I figure 1 ac loss beats gear swapping.Not to mention the few res rings he carries.

vs current as untill I get off work:

12base
7cha
6cha skills
3bunny hat
2hogf
4 GH
34 without swapping.

You keep coming back to this thread to argue. You were the one who claimed your build to be "ultimate". You also said something to the effect of " if you want it all and I do this is how you have to do it." I have shown that it can be done another way and be more effective.And youll just find another way to argue the point.

[lord_of_rage]

null

[TechNoFear]

Even though the AC argument is pointless, as to get a meaningful AC you have to gimp your DPS by not being able to move (because you are in stance).

Your pal monk DoS when unarmored gets;
+6 AC
+7 Wis
+6 Dex
+1 Alc

20 AC from 'armor'

If you put on DT full plate;
15 DT FP
3 Dex (as DoS:3 gives +2 MDB for hvy armor)
1 Alc

19 AC from 'armor'

So only 1 AC difference.

A dwarf DoS can get Armor Mastery to get an equal or higher AC AND keep the paladin capstone to do more DPS.

The pure DoS can also use a shield (for another 10 AC with Stormreaver tower shield and not lose 7 Wis AC) and take advantage of all that Hate generation, DoS blocking AC bonuses and actually 'tank'.

The pure DoS also has a BAB of 20 for a faster attack rate, meaning even higher DPS.

40+ to all saves self buffed...

Could you post the numbers for the saves, as I can't work out how you get 40+ to all saves?

18 pal gets 11/6/6
2 Monk gets 3/3/3
your stats 4/6/7
+7 Chr
+4 Save Aura
+5 resistance item

Giving 34/31/32

I am also interested in your items.
Where is your resistance item, Int item and Chr item?

Belt of the Dos
CG gloves
DT robes for the +6 armor.
Minos helm
Conc Opp ?
Chattering Ring
Band of Siberys

Still need Int item, dex item, +5 prot, SP item, +5 resistance and Chr item (6 effects) with only 5 slots left, leaving no room for Tharne's goggles or Bloodstone?

[Danielson99]

Ok... So I took your advice and "Fixed" my Paladin. I now have Divine Might II, and dropped from Redemption II to Redemption I

Once again... having a 14 vs. 16 base CHA isn't that big of a deficiency... At all...

Loss: 2/Hit, 6/Crit, 10/Smite damage lost...

Gain: (By having Wisdom) 5 AC, 5 Will Saves, 250 SP... SP = More Zeal and More Divine Favor... If you don't think you need the spell points take this into consideration: In 30 minutes, you cast Zeal and Divine Favor Roughly 8 times... that takes up over 500 SP alone... Not to mention Elemental Resist, Keeping SW Pact cast on yourself, Prayer... Spell points are VERY useful to Paladins.

Each to their own but let me point something out. For the average player they will almost NEVER have to hand out buffs as you mention. These are handed out more than generously by the dedicated casters in the group. Also, I have never had a problem keeping DM and Zeal running when needed throughout a quest. Perhaps there are the very odd time it gets tight but for the mostpart 350sp's is more than enough and that even includes giving myself or odd other some buffs at times.

What it comes down to is your Paly is a role player. A Paly has the opportunity to dish out as much or more damage than any Melee in the game against 90% of all enemies. We also can self heal/buff if needed (but very seldom is if you do PUG's or run with a crew).

If you're trying to turn your Paly into a buffer/healer type then all the power to you...but I'd rather just play a Cleric/FvS and do it right. More times than not you'll just end up double-buffing people and wasting your mana...not to mention that you're already sacrificing huge damage just by molding yourself this way. I agree with all above...stick to the guide and you'll have yourself a nice build, regardless of which direction you take it.

My advice....don't build a Paly dedicated to spending 800+sp's a run. If you're casting that much you're not doing what a Paly does best...Kill things. JMHO.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Just to nit pick at some of the incorrect details in this thread.

1. DM IV gives +8 to damage not +10
2. Charisma does not give any bonus to damage on a smite. (or normal hit)

personal opinion points
3. Divine Sacrifice is awesome especially in raids when you are being overhealed anyway. but seriously 5hp is nothing for anywhere between 5d6-18d6 extra damage
4. Do not believe the hype. AP and build points are too scarce to bother with DM IV stick to DM III! (Unless you are a lucky s0b who has a +4 tome)
5. HP is greater than SP on a paladin
6. starting Wisdom of 8 is cheesy and we all know it!