paladin start build

[Gercho]

Why do you factor 10 wis points? if you are starting with 6 wis points more... everything you do to get your wis higher i can do too, so in the end is 6 wis points, i dont think thats 25 sp of each wis point, i think its around 25 each 2 points of wis... but i m not sure... (unequip your +6 wis item and check how many spell points you lose).
In a monk splash obviously wis is more important, again, that would be 3 AC higher than someone starting with 6 less wis... now, how do you get enough ac for those 3 points to matter? most probably you spend a lot of items slots and some feats to get there, damaging your dps in the process.
In general i dont like monk splashes in a paladin for AC, but thats another matter.
Anyway, i would rather take cha 16 wis 8 on a dps paladin monk, than wis 14 cha 14, unless you have a +4 cha tome , and if i had a +4 cha tome i would start with con 14 and wis 10 rather than con 10 and wis 14, 40 hps are more important than 50 or 100 sp's in any melee toon.

[psymun]

Why do you factor 10 wis points? if you are starting with 6 wis points more... everything you do to get your wis higher i can do too, so in the end is 6 wis points, i dont think thats 25 sp of each wis point, i think its around 25 each 2 points of wis... but i m not sure... (unequip your +6 wis item and check how many spell points you lose).
In a monk splash obviously wis is more important, again, that would be 3 AC higher than someone starting with 6 less wis... now, how do you get enough ac for those 3 points to matter? most probably you spend a lot of items slots and some feats to get there, damaging your dps in the process.
In general i dont like monk splashes in a paladin for AC, but thats another matter.
Anyway, i would rather take cha 16 wis 8 on a dps paladin monk, than wis 14 cha 14, unless you have a +4 cha tome , and if i had a +4 cha tome i would start with con 14 and wis 10 rather than con 10 and wis 14, 40 hps are more important than 50 or 100 sp's in any melee toon.

Ahh my good friend... you still fail to explain to me why +2 charisma is SOO much better than +6 to your wisdom... I have not refuted that Charisma is useful... But WHY is +2 Charisma SOO FAR SUPERIOR to +6 wisdom?

Divine Favor = More damage, Zeal = Faster, therefore more damage... Being able to keep those 2 up allows you to do more damage over time.

Listen, I'm not saying that Divine Might is useless, it's not, but even with my build, I don't lose out on much... You're acting like my build is completely dwarfed...

As for Monk for AC... It's monk for AC and Evasion... the Blade Barriers, Lightning Bolts, Fire Blasts etc. that I am able to evade MORE than make up for the 20 HP that I don't have. As for AC... 2 handed fighting, in Full Plate Dragontouched armor with the same stats as my current DT... No Evasion (Get hit by Blade Barriers, Lightning, Fire Blasts, etc... Along with the fact that I would have 6 less AC, not just 3. Max Dex being capped doesn't help. I have the same AC as a paladin with the Full Levik's Defender set and Defender of Siberys, but I don't have to use a shield so I do more DPS.

[r3dl4nce]

You know that with 8 wis +2tome +6 item, archmagi item, bauble you will reach every rest with more than half your sp left, right? even spamming zeal, DF, resiste energy and so on.... Wis on a paladin is only useful to get SP, but you get so few sp from an higher wis than you can get by items (archmagi, bauble). Moreover, dps paladin should stay pure, look at the paladin capstone.... more dps on a dps paladin?? oh yes! the paladin capstone is great! And BTW, 60 AC buffed is NOTHING on shavarath and epic you should reach 80+ AC to be useful. So you could drop those 2 monk levels, lose evasion and gain dps from the capstone

[Gercho]

Ahh my good friend... you still fail to explain to me why +2 charisma is SOO much better than +6 to your wisdom... I have not refuted that Charisma is useful... But WHY is +2 Charisma SOO FAR SUPERIOR to +6 wisdom?

Divine Favor = More damage, Zeal = Faster, therefore more damage... Being able to keep those 2 up allows you to do more damage over time.

Listen, I'm not saying that Divine Might is useless, it's not, but even with my build, I don't lose out on much... You're acting like my build is completely dwarfed...

As for Monk for AC... It's monk for AC and Evasion... the Blade Barriers, Lightning Bolts, Fire Blasts etc. that I am able to evade MORE than make up for the 20 HP that I don't have. As for AC... 2 handed fighting, in Full Plate Dragontouched armor with the same stats as my current DT... No Evasion (Get hit by Blade Barriers, Lightning, Fire Blasts, etc... Along with the fact that I would have 6 less AC, not just 3. Max Dex being capped doesn't help. I have the same AC as a paladin with the Full Levik's Defender set and Defender of Siberys, but I don't have to use a shield so I do more DPS.

I m not saying your build is completely dwarfed, i just say that i think cha 16 con 12 wis 8 is better than cha 14 con 10 wis 14 even for a monk splash, i like evasion too, my paladin has a rogue splash for evasion and umd...

You keep saying that divine favor + zeal is good, and noboy doubts that, you dont need 800 mana to keep those all the time...

Anyway, monk splash and rogue splash have both his pro and cons, i like rogue better unless you have a real good use for the extra feats.

I said your build was gimped when it had no DM at all, now with DMII i think is still a little worse than could be, but is a matter of preferences.

About the hp's, you can allways say that 20 hp's is not a big deal, but paladins already say that to drop starting con from 14 to 12, you drop 12 to 10, then someone can say, well, i can start with 8, since 10 is ok, and 8 will be just 20 less hp's... so where you draw the limit? 20 hp's again wont gimp your char, but i rather have 20 more hp's over 1 more ac and a few sp's... so 12 con 12 wis i think is better than 10 con 14 wis, and 14 con 10 wis is even better...

[Inmate]

16 Str
10 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
12 Wiz
14 Char

I have a Drow Pali with this build.
Planned on using a plus 2 tome to get to a 16 base char.
Also a Str tome.
Always thought wiz would be good for some well needed extra spell points,
since I know Pali spell points are small.
Planning on using a shield, with one weap.

Not sure how well this build is, maybe im looking at a re roll, is this the same with rangers?
the wizdom stat, u dont need a base 11 to cast?

[r3dl4nce]

Planning on using a shield, with one weap.

If you want do dps you must go two hand fight or two weapon fight (but to qualify for twf you need 15 dex and for improved/greater twf you need 17 dex). If you want go for tank route, dex is too low. So with your stat the only thing you can do is dps with a two hand weapon. Drop Wis to 8, you need 10+spell level to cast, but you can use a +3 wis or plus item

[elraido]

NEVER EVER EVER go wiz on a paladin for spell points. no no no If you NEED to cross class into a casters territory, look at sorc or favored soul or even cleric. NEVER wiz.

[psymun]

You know that with 8 wis +2tome +6 item, archmagi item, bauble you will reach every rest with more than half your sp left, right? even spamming zeal, DF, resiste energy and so on.... Wis on a paladin is only useful to get SP, but you get so few sp from an higher wis than you can get by items (archmagi, bauble). Moreover, dps paladin should stay pure, look at the paladin capstone.... more dps on a dps paladin?? oh yes! the paladin capstone is great! And BTW, 60 AC buffed is NOTHING on shavarath and epic you should reach 80+ AC to be useful. So you could drop those 2 monk levels, lose evasion and gain dps from the capstone

Ahh yes, and this is where we get into the issue of where to fit all your items... How do you equip an archmagi item and also have +6 Dex, +6 Str, and +6 Cha, +6 Con, +6 Wis items? All thee stats I mentioned were static... which means that I can get those numbers at all times with the same items on.

I see people saying they have 80+ AC... but in reality it's only 80+ for about a minute... when fully buffed... I have a 71 AC, not including all the 20 second and 30 second buffs that ppl refer to as AC... End game... that 80+ac doesn't even last through you killing your first mob... And trust me... my AC does very well in Shavarath... and it's "only" at 65 in there...

[r3dl4nce]

Now you understand that is difficult to be built for AC and for DPS.
But, look:
Knight of the Chalice ToD set (+6 CON on belt, +6 STR on ring)
Bracers of the glacier (archmagi)
Warchanter ring (CHA+6 , exc STR +1)
Dex+6 on gloves
Resistance +5, Protection +5, Insight +4 on dragontouch
Wis +6 on necklace
Greensteel +45 hp cloak
Minos legens on helm

Am I missing something?

[psymun]

Now you understand that is difficult to be built for AC and for DPS.
But, look:
Knight of the Chalice ToD set (+6 CON on belt, +6 STR on ring)
Bracers of the glacier (archmagi)
Warchanter ring (CHA+6 , exc STR +1)
Dex+6 on gloves
Resistance +5, Protection +5, Insight +4 on dragontouch
Wis +6 on necklace
Greensteel +45 hp cloak
Minos legens on helm

Am I missing something?

That is my point exactly... I'm DPS build, and without giving up ANY of my DPS... I can get my AC up to 65... 70 if I wanted to go into my defensive stance... 72 if I wanted to go into my monk stance as well... Oh... And my Defensive stance actually INCREASES my DPS... and my CON... (DoS)

[Gercho]

If you are DoS you are sacrificing DPS for AC, at least against most mobs on end game and raids...

[samthedagger]

I wouldn't even consider building a paladin without DM IV. But that's just me. The extra damage is a huge boost for any build, whether defensive or offensive or in between. And it is way better than barbarian DB IV, which is only +5 for 20 seconds. DM IV is +10 for 60 seconds. And with all the turns that a paladin gets, keeping DM up is a breeze. DM IV would be worth it if it cost 20 APs, but amazingly it only costs 10.

That isn't to say that a paladin build isn't viable without DM IV. But it's such a useful enhancement I can't imagine not taking full advantage of it. The point is that without DM IV, you might be viable, but far from optimized.

[lord_of_rage]

16 STR
15 DEX
10 CON
8 INT
14 WIS
14 CHA

Your build vs. my build... you have 20 more HP, 1 extra turn attempt and +1 to saves... I have 450 unbuffed HP, and 35 unbuffed to all saves... My paladin isn't hurt at all. However, 350 vs. 650 sp allows me to buff resists and SW Pact on others, along with keeping zeal and divine favor on myself, removing curses, removing paralysis etc. You can't tell me that my stats hurt my Paladin. At all...

Yes I can tell you your stats hurt your build. You have less con I have DM4 . While you are stuck at DM2 untill you get a +4 tome or use a lvl up and a +3 tome. So I'm getting +4 more dmg per swing than you are. So again I stick by my point. You hurt your build if you went pure.

[lord_of_rage]

That is my point exactly... I'm DPS build, and without giving up ANY of my DPS... I can get my AC up to 65... 70 if I wanted to go into my defensive stance... 72 if I wanted to go into my monk stance as well... Oh... And my Defensive stance actually INCREASES my DPS... and my CON... (DoS)

You are giving up dps. You dont use divine might because its too consuming of aps lol. You have more ac than my pure pally cool. But again a pure pally has +4 more dmg per swing, 3d6 more dmg via the capstone, and the weapons of good allows me to equip epic weapons and bypass dr silver and good. So I wind up doing quite a bit more dps end game where ac isnt going to matter as much.

Now DOS builds can easily sustain 80+ ac s%b fully geared out and a 75 with twf. They do give up dps. But in situations where ac matters the DOS will have more. In situations where dps matters the pure KOTC will have more.

Your defensive monk stance decreases dps as you are not centered when not using monk weapons if I recall correctly. So shifting from the assumed rapiers, scimitars or kopeshes to kamas or wraps is a big decrease.

[psymun]

You are giving up dps. You dont use divine might because its too consuming of aps lol. You have more ac than my pure pally cool. But again a pure pally has +4 more dmg per swing, 3d6 more dmg via the capstone, and the weapons of good allows me to equip epic weapons and bypass dr silver and good. So I wind up doing quite a bit more dps end game where ac isnt going to matter as much.

Now DOS builds can easily sustain 80+ ac s%b fully geared out and a 75 with twf. They do give up dps. But in situations where ac matters the DOS will have more. In situations where dps matters the pure KOTC will have more.

Your defensive monk stance decreases dps as you are not centered when not using monk weapons if I recall correctly. So shifting from the assumed rapiers, scimitars or kopeshes to kamas or wraps is a big decrease.

The DPS Sacrafice I was talking about was the DPS sacrafice of a DoS vs. DoS... I know that KoC does more DPS than DoS, but I like the other abilities that I get with DoS better... Althought the extra what... 9d6 damage? Is nice... and I actually switch back and forth from DoS and KoC, and I maintain the same non-stanced AC... which is still, again.. 65...

Unfortunately... Yes... I lose 2d6 of damage by not going 20 paladin... but guess what? If your dead from a fireblast, lightning bolt, or blade barrier.... how much damage are you doing then? Again... I like having evasion and I gladly sacrifice 2d6 damage vs. staying alive more consistently...

Just today it was shown that having as many people as possible that can raise dead is VERY useful... 2 clerics and 2 melees all went down during a fight... We had 1 cleric still left up and the 2 melees that went down were the ones that had raise clickies... Considering the fact that there are cooldowns on the raise deads, and the cleric still had to keep 6 other people healed at the same time... it came in handy...

[Gercho]

Any 2 lvls of splash on a paladin is sacrificing dps, there is no doubt about it, they like to have other abilities to compensate the dps you sacrifice. Pure vs 18/2 debate is entirely different, in this thread we were discussing for a splash paladin if wis was worthy or not...
In the end for monk is: (+3 ac + a few spell points (forgot to check at home how many) +3 to will save) vs (+2 damage +20 hps +1 reflex +2 fort +1 will saves, a little higher loh and smites)
For any non monk, its just the spell points vs everything else... so i would think that for any non monk the choice is obvious. For a monk, if you can get to enough AC for the 3 points to matter, then in those situations, wis could be better, for epics and end game raids, i dont think you cant get that high anyway, so i wouldnt make a monk paladin trying to have enough AC.

I would like to see your ac breakdown to get to AC 65 (sustainable) without DOS stance while TWF, and as you said without giving up any of your dps.

[psymun]

Any 2 lvls of splash on a paladin is sacrificing dps, there is no doubt about it, they like to have other abilities to compensate the dps you sacrifice. Pure vs 18/2 debate is entirely different, in this thread we were discussing for a splash paladin if wis was worthy or not...
In the end for monk is: (+3 ac + a few spell points (forgot to check at home how many) +3 to will save) vs (+2 damage +20 hps +1 reflex +2 fort +1 will saves, a little higher loh and smites)
For any non monk, its just the spell points vs everything else... so i would think that for any non monk the choice is obvious. For a monk, if you can get to enough AC for the 3 points to matter, then in those situations, wis could be better, for epics and end game raids, i dont think you cant get that high anyway, so i wouldnt make a monk paladin trying to have enough AC.

I would like to see your ac breakdown to get to AC 65 (sustainable) without DOS stance while TWF, and as you said without giving up any of your dps.

So we're clear, by sustained I mean more than 5 minutes... And here's the breakdown:

10 Base
7 Wis
6 Dex
6 Aura
5 Protection
6 Armor Bonus
5 Barkskin
2 ToD DoS
1 Dodge
2 Chaosgarde
3 Chattering Ring
4 Insight
1 Alchemical Ritual
4 Wand of Shield
4 Bard
1 Centered Bonus (I still get it even though I'm wielding weapons)

=67 (Sorry that I was wrong here... I'm not sure how I messed that up... :/)

Stanced I can add:
4 Superior Defensive Stance (Increases my DPS but slows my movement)
2 Defensive Fighting (Decreases my attack bonus, but not my damage)

73 Stanced

Short Buffs:
1 Haste
2 Recitation
2 Armor Class Boost

Hmm... I never realized I could get a 78... That's interesting... Too bad I don't have Combat Expertise... I'd have an 81

Losing DPS;
Wind Stance: (I'd have to go with my Rahl's Might, doesn't crit as often as my other weapons, but I attack a hell of a lot faster... It also adds +1 to my AC...

So 82 total if I had Combat Expertise...

79 Total Without it...

Oh... I'll also be adding +2 exceptional Wisdom and making my spectral gloves epic... So that would be...

69 sustained, 75 Stanced, 80 with short buffs, 81 Losing DPS and 84 With combat expertise...

And if I'm not mistaken... Protection from evil gives you another 2 vs. evil creaters... and Chaosgarde gives you another 2 vs. Chaotic creatures... so that would be a total of 88 in amrath, or 73 sustained However... that's just speculative... because I don't think those would stake with normal deflection bonuses... but we can't tell for sure since it's not calculated...

[Gercho]

Well, in your break up, it shows that you are sacrificing some dps in different areas to get meaningfull AC, if you add all those sacrifices, it ends being a lot of dps you sacrifice:


DoS vs KotC is a big sacrifice by itself.
the wis vs cha thing its another sacrifice,
you are using the DoS set (instead of KotC, the chattering ring (you could fit another damage Tod set with a second ring, like shintao monk), the chaosgarde, protection, insight, in all those slots or parts of slots you could have something to increase your damage using specific items, or just guards.
6 points of your base ac are dependant on other members too... probably you will have barskin but not allways a bard, anyway, thats not the main point, the main point is that you have made sacrifices to dps all over your char, to get a meaningfull AC, the wis one its just one more, in the end, i wouldnt call your build a DPS build, its more an AC build, yes, can do decent dps, but is far beyond a dps focused 18/2 paladin, and even more beyond a pure paladin...
I m saying your build is bad or inviable? not at all, but again, i wouldnt call it a dps paladin.

So, in the end we could agree that wis in a paladin is never good if you have a dps focus, if you have an AC focus and splash monk, then you will want to consider spending some points on wis.

[elraido]

Honestly, I like DoS more than KotC.
Protection from evil
deflection bonus +5 (no need for a protection item)
Glorious Stand - Great for when you have those, ish just hit the fan moments and you can raise clerics and save the party
Defensive Stance - Everyone is complaining about hp....so why wouldn't they want a + to str AND CON
AC Boost
Saves Boost

Kotc
Chance to stun demons -worthless on elite
extra average of 9 damage vs outsiders and a bug with undead

The difference in DPS is about 7 per swing. Honestly, I think the HP and all the other abilities far outweigh 7 points per swing vs a certain enemy.

[psymun]

Well, in your break up, it shows that you are sacrificing some dps in different areas to get meaningfull AC, if you add all those sacrifices, it ends being a lot of dps you sacrifice:


DoS vs KotC is a big sacrifice by itself.
the wis vs cha thing its another sacrifice,
you are using the DoS set (instead of KotC, the chattering ring (you could fit another damage Tod set with a second ring, like shintao monk), the chaosgarde, protection, insight, in all those slots or parts of slots you could have something to increase your damage using specific items, or just guards.
6 points of your base ac are dependant on other members too... probably you will have barskin but not allways a bard, anyway, thats not the main point, the main point is that you have made sacrifices to dps all over your char, to get a meaningfull AC, the wis one its just one more, in the end, i wouldnt call your build a DPS build, its more an AC build, yes, can do decent dps, but is far beyond a dps focused 18/2 paladin, and even more beyond a pure paladin...
I m saying your build is bad or inviable? not at all, but again, i wouldnt call it a dps paladin.

So, in the end we could agree that wis in a paladin is never good if you have a dps focus, if you have an AC focus and splash monk, then you will want to consider spending some points on wis.

My build is not a DPS build or an AC build. It's what I refer to as an ultimate defender...

Evasion, Good DPS, Good AC, 40+ to all saves self buffed... 40% Healing amp, ability to raise dead and cure all ailments of myself or others... +6 AC aura, +4 Saves Aura... And I can do it without having 2 different sets of gear.

What I have done with my build is made it so that I can keep up with a DPS or an AC build without having to go lopsided... I have, in my opinion, the most balanced Paladin build that I've seen. If you want it all... like I do... this is the route you have to take.

And I can also switch over to KoC if I need to and get all that DPS back, and if I'm not mistaken... I'd only lose 2 AC from my ToD set, and 1 from my aura... so I'd still have a 64 AC with full KoC, 70 with short buffs... Then all I'm missing is 2 levels of Divine Might, and the 2d6 vs. Outsiders... And in the meantime giving a lot more support to everyone...