To all the thelanian paper warriors

[Alintalkin]

No. There is absolutely NO excuse not to have heavy fortification after level 15.

I would say after level 11 or 12 personally especially since you can get one from relic of a sovereign past for at no cost but perhaps the time it takes to run it (in which you get experience and loot anyhow).

[Zyklon]

I would say after level 11 or 12 personally especially since you can get one from relic of a sovereign past for at no cost but perhaps the time it takes to run it (in which you get experience and loot anyhow).

Not to mention it is a Free to Play quest (at least I think it is).

-

[Salsa]

You see, I don't assume people know where things are. I go by what they should of gotten without knowing anything. Most of the people the OP is talking about are likely new (heck I am new and I can't tell you 'oh you get X at Y'). You don't have to do specific quests to get to level 20.


Sure, you will likely die alot. But then again, they some how managed to get to level 20(which doesn't mean they really know anything) without throwing the towel in and starting over or looking on the forums for why they die so often.

[mannvar]

Something doesn't add up when most of the 6 con or gfl ml15 items I put up in the ah for ~60 to 90k gold bo don't sell... I mean seriously, one would assume it really sucked to play a toon that constantly dies, regardless of what quest you are doing.

[soloman]

When I first started playing I saw HP as the most vital stat that I could understand and control.

Like most of you, I just dont get the mindset of these players that walk into the Shroud as a capped melee with less HP than the people that are trying thier arses off to keep them alive. But what can be done other than to avoid them?

Like others have stated, the new folk that are playing these toons either dont care that they are a liability in any group they join and/or they dont read the forums so we are all just ****ing in the wind.

What I do is only group with people I know or are friends with. When I do pug (and its not often) I make sure I can darn near solo the quest if it came down to it because way too often I have had to do just that.

I wish that I could just quit pugging altogether but I do enjoy the social aspect of this game too much. Also, meeting new peeps that are solid and comptent players gives you better insight for the days you need or want to add to your team. /Buys a pint for Pete

[Bilger]

I disagree. Most of these are likely new players who may or may not even read the forums. They may not have access to these things. Expecting XYZ and is unreasonable IMO.

Whoever I think since we are talking 20th level here:

Con 14 is reasonable(though some builds don't need it this high)
Toughness is reasonable
A con item of some sort +2 to +4
False life item possibly
At least a light fort item

Seriously if made 20 you have run plenty of high end content and gfl, HF, and +5 and +6 items are common drops.

seriously light fort is useless especially when one crit wipes ya

Shoot minos at 11 are ez to get and may not be common knowledge to noobies but most will have heard by 20.

Everything pete mentioned is reasonable to acquire for a melee. Even a new one

If made to 20 without learning or acquiring at least most of these items then a lot of piking has been done.

[weyoun]

If I could +1 you, I would, OP...but until then, I unapologetically agree.

Please, do not enter my Shroud's with less than 300 hp...those 200 hp rogues and casters out there, ya gotta hold up your end, I'm not your personal healer. I'm here for the group.

I hope a lot of people read this, and attempt to better their builds as a result. Cuz if it keeps getting worse, I'm only healing raids for people I know....and I really don't want to have to start doing that.

350 hps is minimum for melee. I don't care if ur a bow user and <insert banal excuse why you don't need 350 hps>. 300 hp min for casters. There isn't a single player out there who, in their right mind, will ever think, "I wish I had less hitpoints."

Pete is right. Listen up noobs.

[weyoun]

No. There is absolutely NO excuse not to have heavy fortification after level 11.

Fixed that for ya.

[Seelowe]

for the new ppl and the know-better-than-you noobs, (who, as noted earlier are prolly exactly those that never read the forums to begin with) expecting a hp item out of the shroud as soon as they start farming it is not really realistic. most melees will use all their first larges on that minII or LS or earthgrab or radiance weapon. if they are 2wf possibly on a 2nd one as well before they look into items like hp, sp, conc opp, guards etc.
the older a toon gets though, those items are expected and if your hps are not over a certain number should be your priority.

I agree with that whole list for capped toons and ppl with more than 1 toon on a server.

don't be afraid to let new ppl know where to get the things in that list. often, it is simply their first toon and they simply do not know and will be thankful for the information.

now... what I would really like to do is take pete's 1st post and YELL it at the group of capped TRed toons running around lately WITHOUT those things. for pete's sakes!!

in other news, I blame lysol's bio.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

in other news, I blame lysol's bio.

Na, just blame Lysol.
His sig changes somtimes, but Lysol is always the same...

[hockeyrama]

first at level 20 i think it fair to say that most of the gear mentioned could be had if not something comparable. However to say that they have to have all of it is not right as mentioned some expensive. However, there are other ways to get close to the numbers you say. My belief is that that players and especially melee characters should focus on HP more. A caster or rogue would or could ahve an argument that 400 is too high but a melee should not.

Here is what I see. In lower levels the same problem exists so the following should be true for all characters:

First putting 6 of your build points (whether 28 or 32) in con should be done as yes you want to cap your main as a drow sorc for example but I can't think of a build that would be hindered if they did not put at least 6 points into con and more for any melee.

Second having toughness as a feat at least once and getting the racial toughness as well should be done by every character. This will go a long way and getting your hp up. The only character that might not need this would be a barbarian as he may already have a very large HP pool and he wants to do more damage.

Third look for gear that boost your hitpoints. Whether it casts false life 1 or more times per rest or whether it has false life on it the point is make sure to look for this type of gear and buy if you have to.

So I will always say picking a number like 400 is not a good idea as there are players that can survive with less. I would say players should make sure that HP are a major part of their build plan and caster, rogue or fighter ou should try ot max it. Now to say they should wear this or that gear is also bad as they can do it their way. It is a social game and players like to do things their way. So if they put a focus on HP they shoud be ok even if they get just under your 400 total.

Example: Even at low levels low HP is a problem.
I doing a bunch of level 4 quests on hard and some on elite with my cleric whoe is level 7 (most players level 5 -7). I had two casters one sorc and one wiz. One clw from me with my items (this is also a new character on server so items earned not passed form other character) and setup would heal almost their entire hp. So one kept asking for bears at begining and I figured better give it before one or two hits drops him. The difference here is he knew it was low. I recommended when he go to 6 he grab tougness and he agreed that he is seeing the need for it with the enhancements.

I ahve also seen rogues with very low hp in the right group (at higher levels) take almost no damage if they play it rgiht. So to say it has to be a certain amount is harder on some builds. But to say you have to focus on HP that is true for all.

[petegunn]

Just to clear up a few points here, this isn't a bash at new players for theres many a so called veteran who are guilty as charged. I'm talking about level 20 melee characters and I'm being liberal with the 400 hp benchmark. The shroud crafted hp item was a recommendation to help boost hp, what level do these fools start to pike the shroud ? 15 or 16 maybe. So if they're not completing thats a lot of ingredient farming to get the basics covered (weapon or weapons first then hp next) even the second alter yields 20 hp.

Casters you require 300ish hp, I'll give you a reason why now. Part 4 of the shroud again, in there I'm seeing low hp gimps not even last the first spawn of devils! couple that with the Pitters dbf in the bake for 230 odd hp damage then a wee session in the blades, to finish your 150 hp caster or cleric off. You can't defend having 150 hp really. Which I see a lot of casters and even clerics having.

My sorc has about 290 hp and this is how I mitigate said damage, I always keep fire prot up plus I can no fail heal scrolls so I'm not a liability on that score. Also I'm smart enough not to stand in the blades and of course I always keep on the move and I keep an eye on what/where the Pitters doing and facing.

I restate what I typed earlier reference the low hp, some players can pull it off, but they are an exception to the general population.
Example, a rogue the other night when quizzed about his lack of hp, defended it by saying he knew what he was doing and he never took any damage. This person had 272 hp! at level 20 he died once in part 4 and 3 times yes three times in part 5 before he rage quit.

If you're reading this champ we completed with myself fvs still alive and 2 rangers to save the day. The reallity of the situation is, an easy raid like the shrouds being made hard by players who should know better but don't. They're willing to freeload a completion knowing full well they don't even contribute to the group at all. I may be an arsehole but when I join your lfm on whatever class I'm playing be it healer, caster or melee at least I'm an arsehole who works and brings something to the team.

To conclude at level 20 you really haven't heard of the ddo forum?you should have a basic grasp of the game and the quests within (shroud again the PUZZLE), also you should have a concept of how your character works. If you don't then you're totally selfish you have no regard for your fellow player nor do you seek or want help.

[Pyromaniac]

Pete - As always you have words of wisdom.

I'm playing a lot less DDO these days, one of the reasons is due to an increasing percentage of the playerbase who feel like they should be carried through every quest.

MyDDO'd a level 20 sorc a few weeks ago and the guy had mid 90s hp....yes not 190, not 290, not 390, not 490 but around 94 hp. He was drow, had next to nothing hp building on at all.

I think its time to be able to set miminums if you have an LFM up for hp. If you don't have more than a specific amount of hp for a class, you get auto rejected from group. This should be part of the LFM grouping tool.

[Irinis]

I laugh when I'm on my caster and I see a healer throw me a cure light to test how many hp I have, because I do the same on my healer (bard). Too many casters can be filled up by just a maximized clw and why waste sp on keeping them up? Unfortunately then I usually cry because I end up dead when the mob hits me for more than the healer healed me for and I wouldn't have died with a real heal.

[diamabel]

I been playing my healers a lot recently and i've been noticing you guys going down quicker than a virgin on prom night. So for all you powder puff girls is this hard to achieve?

Con stat item +6
Greater false life
Shroud crafted hp item
At least one toughness feat and the enhancements to back it up
Minos helm from the orchard
Starting con stat of 14+
Heavy fort

As a general rule I draw the line at 400hp for a level 20 melee character, anything under that and you're a fecking liability. While some skilled players may be able to run with fewer hp from my experience the majority cannot (part 4 and 5 of the shroud spring to mind)

I'm gonna call it here basically you guys are a joke i'm sick sore and tired of you and i'm going to go outa my way to avoid you like the plague. If I create a raid or a party you're not getting in, pike your own lfm's.

Well, you can expect someone with several capped toons to have this kind of equipment. Not from someone who is new to the game and doesn't even have access to adventure packs where half these items come from. Nor with the financial resources to buy the other half from the auction house. If someone gets really lucky he may get everything on his/her first runs, but that is unlikely).

The issue may be that you don't need these for most of the quests while leveling up (not even elite). Provided you can exploit the AI and use appropriate tactics (e.g. pulling small manageable groups, focus fire, target casters first, range when appropriate and get shield blocked for protection, crowd control, etc.). The run may be slower this way, but you need no resources or exceptional equipment.

[abull74]

I dont play healers....but I have to agree with the OP........if you have less than 300 hp on ANY toon...reroll and stay away from my groups.

I ran with a caster this week he was lvl 7 with 48 HP ...W.T.F.....re roll!!!!
I know a ranger(Arcane Archer), that has 178HP at lvl 17....given he was a noob and he said he knew his mistake and that he was gonna TR as soon as he hit 20 and correct his build.

Still, dont poeple do a little research on the game they are trying to play or character build research for that shiney new toon you want?

I am an OLD SCHOOL player....been around since a week after launch in 06'. I unfortunately had to learn all this the hard way along with everyone else.....but now days, the forums are FULL of experience just waiting to be soaked up by noobs to help them be better prepared before jumping in DDO and totally gimping themselves.

CON IS NOT A DUMP STAT....IT IS A PRIMARY STAT FOR ALL CLASSES!!!

I AM THE FPOON!!!

[Jiipster]

Fixed that for ya.

11 can be tough for the first toon of a new player. I personally make sure that nearly all my toons have 100% fort at level 6 (mod fort item, since 90% of my toons are warfrogs). At 11 you can make excuses, at 15 you can't.

[LugnutEU]

Well, you can expect someone with several capped toons to have this kind of equipment. Not from someone who is new to the game and doesn't even have access to adventure packs where half these items come from. Nor with the financial resources to buy the other half from the auction house. If someone gets really lucky he may get everything on his/her first runs, but that is unlikely).

The issue may be that you don't need these for most of the quests while leveling up (not even elite). Provided you can exploit the AI and use appropriate tactics (e.g. pulling small manageable groups, focus fire, target casters first, range when appropriate and get shield blocked for protection, crowd control, etc.). The run may be slower this way, but you need no resources or exceptional equipment.

You can pick up GFL, Heavy Fort and +6 con items from the vendor, usually with something useless attached to them but they perform perfectly well until you get better gear. I've been playing on this server for a little over a month, my ranger at L20 has 506 hp with no hard to find gear (not had enough shards from shroud to craft yet) but all of my stat gear is L15 has it has +3skills on making it much cheaper than the L13 gear.

[petegunn]

I quote Diamabel.

Well, you can expect someone with several capped toons to have this kind of equipment. Not from someone who is new to the game and doesn't even have access to adventure packs where half these items come from. Nor with the financial resources to buy the other half from the auction house. If someone gets really lucky he may get everything on his/her first runs, but that is unlikely). End quote

You're missing the point here, these guys are level 20 they're running the raids so they have the adventure packs or they're vip. They got to level 20 by running raids and quests and in those raids and quests are shineys for the looting off (some of these fools even have dragon touched armour) *shudder* I wonder who pulled them through the reavers refuge 'the horror the horror'.

From the gianthold on in is where the good loot lies. So are you really telling me that from level 13 to 20 they never pulled loot that would be benificial to their build?

Perhaps they sold all their loot to the vendor but a wise man once told me "theres no point being the richest man in the grave"

[weyoun]

11 can be tough for the first toon of a new player. I personally make sure that nearly all my toons have 100% fort at level 6 (mod fort item, since 90% of my toons are warfrogs). At 11 you can make excuses, at 15 you can't.

I would argue that there are several chests in the orchard that are easy to solo, even on a melee and there is always the nightforge gorgette out of BAM - min level 9 and ftp. Anyone with an ounce of ambition and leadership and the will to grind can put together a tap farming group and get a minos in about two hours. This should be your first priority upon reaching level 11 if you do not have a Minos. Show up in Gianthold without heavy fort and you are dead weight, literally. I have a large surplus of tapestries as do most other vets that we have just accumulated over time - its an extremely easy item to obtain. I find it unfortunate when someone is wearing a diefic diadem in lieu of a minos and I will decline that person because they are either new or lost.

If there is some new player reading this who wants a GFL belt or a con6 belt I have a dozen on one of my mules. Send me a PM and I'll give it to you.