how does str and dex effect weapon finesse?

[Chukasil]

I've just created a monk (lvl 5 currently) and used the basic 14str 16dex starting stats and have taken weapon finesse, which i thought uses the dex modifier instead of the str modifier when dealing damage. If this is the case then why bother with keeping up my str stats and why would I use my lvl stat increase on str instead of dex like I have seen suggested on some of these threads? Wouldn't it be easier to keep padding my dex stat since it is already higher than my str stat? The fact that I have to get dex to 18 for GTWF means that I have to come up with 2 dex somewhere and will just make it more difficult for me to get a decent str. And why is that only a halfling can be a true "dex" build?

Why not a 12 str 18dex starting stat?
Does strength play a role in damage out put even with weapon finesse?
If not why is str pushed so much on these boards?

[SolarDawning]

Dexterity never affects attack damage.
With Weapon Finesse, Dexterity affects your to-hit rolls. Not damage.
You still need strength to deal additional damage.

[Eurytos]

Finesse uses DEX for To-Hit (Attack) not damage. STR is always used for damage no matter what.

[English_Warrior]

Weapon Finess only uses Dex to HIT...not for damage.
The Strength is still used for Damage.

Also strength is used to increase the amount of stuff you can carry.

[Chukasil]

Ah-ha!
So build dex up to 18 for GTWF and then max out str?

[DelverRootnose]

....only applies to light finessable weapons. For monks that is usually unarmed handwraps. There is ont staff that does use dex as a damage mod but it is a fairly rare raid loot.

[Chukasil]

Yeah, it looks like I'm rerolling this char- no biggie as she's lvl 5
But, two more questions.

What is a halfing "dex build"
What benefits does it have over your standard str build.

I don't think there is a need for a long answer, but a breif summary so I can decide on how I want to reroll this toon as I am really enjoying playing a monk. But don't want to be the gimp that causes an extra round in shroud 4 b/c I'm not doing enough damage.

[FauxSho]

Yeah, it looks like I'm rerolling this char- no biggie as she's lvl 5
But, two more questions.

What is a halfing "dex build"
What benefits does it have over your standard str build.

Dex builds emphasize Dexterity over Strength... so they start with a higher Dex and usually put level-up points into Dex. Naturally they take Weapon Finesse. This works best on a Halfling Rogue using Rapiers since Rapiers are the only non-light finessable weapon, Rogue damage from sneak attack is high, and is independent of Str bonus (and Halflings get racial enhancements to sneak attack damage). Dex builds also have potentially higher AC (which is of debatable usefulness in later levels since it is difficult to maintain at a useful level), but lower carrying capacity, generally.

Str builds are usually better suited for damage output on melee characters which rely on crit-multiplied bonuses, such as Strength bonus. This is more common.

[MithrilSoul]

What FauxSho says is correct but not really relevant in a discussion of monks since you're never going to see monks using rapiers, etc.

Basically the point of a DEX (or more accurately for monks, DEX/WIS) build is to achieve high enough AC that you can avoid getting hit most of the time. So survivability comes through avoidance. You have lower damage than a corresponding STR build, but the theory is if you are taking less damage from enemy attacks, then the longer time it is taking you to kill stuff doesn't really matter. Note that there is really no such thing as a pure DEX build monk; if you are going for AC, you need to really pump both the DEX and the WIS in order to make this happen. And like all AC builds in this game, it is pretty heavily gear dependent especially as you get to the higher levels. On twink character that's certainly possible. On a first character...it's probably going to be a relatively painful experience until you've had the time to farm the raids over & over again to get the gear you need to really achieve the AC plateaus it takes to be able to survive as an AC-based character. You're never going to be successful as an AC build if you have only mediocre (or average) gear for your level. Spent any time on the forums and you will see the sort of "to hit" bonuses the mobs start getting in the mid-levels and higher. It's crazy. If you can't hit certain AC plateaus then you might as well have no AC at all--if mobs have +45 to-hit then it doesn't matter whether your AC is 25 or 27 or 30...you're getting nailed basically every time anyways.

STR monk on the other hand pours a lot more points into STR, which means more damage. So he will have a lower AC than the DEX/WIS counterpart, but attempts to make up for that (when soloing) by doing more damage and thus killing things faster. Probably a more useful contributor in a raid/party insofar as you expect the tank to be holding aggro, so if the monk is (more often than not) not getting attacked, the monk's AC isn't really relevant...but the damage output is.

When all is said and done though, the difference between a DEX (WIS) and STR build in a monk is probably less than many other classes. The reason being, because of our stances, any monk (of any build) is going to want some pretty high numbers. Grandmaster wind stance is SO good that even a STR based monk is going to want to have a stat arrangement so that you will be able to eventually hit a base DEX of 18 once level-ups and tomes are factored in. My monk (only lvl 8 currently) is what I guess you would call a STR-based monk, yet by the time she is lvl 20 she will have at least 18's (base) in STR, DEX, and CON (and 16 in WIS). Probably need 32 point build (and the right +2 tomes) to achieve that though. No matter what your focus is, none of those four can truly be a "dump" stat (I don't think) for a monk. Or at least, it would be a somewhat odd build.

[knightgf]

I never used Weapon Finesse before, but what is the point of taking that feat if it does not affect your damage mod as well? While it is nice to have a high chance to hit, it means nothing if you cannot hit anything with good damage.

[Brother_Solar]

I never used Weapon Finesse before, but what is the point of taking that feat if it does not affect your damage mod as well? While it is nice to have a high chance to hit, it means nothing if you cannot hit anything with good damage.

Even if you aren't hitting with high physical damage, you are still hitting with all of the weapon effects you happen to be wearing. On a monk, that can be up to four to five additional effects.

1. Base Element on Handwraps (Holy, Shock, True Law, Axiomatic, etc.)
2. Frost or Icy Burst from the Risia Games
3. Greater Bane or Pure Good
4. Holy Burst from Tower of Despair ring
5. Shocking Burst from Tower of Despair ring

That's a potential total of 2d6+1d6+3d6+2d6+1d6 = 9d6 extra damage per hit that has nothing to do with the base damage of your attack. Combine that with a Wind IV attack rate, and you're still putting out some decent damage.

However, if you aren't hitting, then you aren't doing any damage at all.

[Chukasil]

Great information. Thank's for all the input.

[MithrilSoul]

I never used Weapon Finesse before, but what is the point of taking that feat if it does not affect your damage mod as well? While it is nice to have a high chance to hit, it means nothing if you cannot hit anything with good damage.

Well...not hitting at all is worse than hitting weakly.

And besides the good answer Brother_Solar gave, I would also want to point out that in some situations (such as stat-draining weapons like Weakening, Maladroit, etc.) ALL that matters is that your blow connects in order for the effect to proc. Same thing would be true of Paralyzing weapons, Disruption weapons, and so forth.

I've seen different rules/recommendations, but in general if your DEX is more than 4 or 6 points higher than your STR, then weapon finesse is probably a good idea for a feat choice. If your DEX is only a few points higher, or your STR is higher, then it is totally a waste.

[Rafal]

One more thing people are forgetting here is a Power Attack feat. It lets you pump your DEX for AC and then turn some of it in damage. Power Attack turns 5 to-hit into 5 DMG so if you pump your DEX to really hight levels like let's say 36 and have this 14 base STR (you need 13 for PA) you can turn on Power Attack to hit like you'd have 26 DEX and damage like you'd have 30 STR. All this with a wind stance speed and bonus to AC.

[Emili]

One more thing people are forgetting here is a Power Attack feat. It lets you pump your DEX for AC and then turn some of it in damage. Power Attack turns 5 to-hit into 5 DMG so if you pump your DEX to really hight levels like let's say 36 and have this 14 base STR (you need 13 for PA) you can turn on Power Attack to hit like you'd have 26 DEX and damage like you'd have 30 STR. All this with a wind stance speed and bonus to AC.

I have never built a real melee without two feats - Improved crit: <something> and Power attack... when came about the level cap increase to 12 it entailed a full weapon style chain also... either of twf or thf chains.

Str - plays a few important things in a DnD build - to-hit and Damage, some lesser extent to carrry capacity and a couple skills.

Dex - plays a few important things in a DnD build - AC and saves, and some lesser extent to a handfull of skills.

Finesse - is the trade of a feat slot to use Dex as your "To-hit" ... which is a trade off to eliminate some of the importance of a base stat for another at the price of a feat slot... the reason why it does not replace the entire stat is that it would undermine the purpose of the other stat.

DDO is based on DnD ... thus the basic principles are focus'd on character and it's build (DnD). One of the enlightening issues with DDO however is that DDO unlike DnD is also exploitable in fact that weapons and items fall into a more important role in builds. DnD is more about a character build and a role-play of that character... DDO items (wealth thru luck or time) become more a part of the build... hense so many a dex based toon screaming about WoP nerfs vs str builds about them. In DnD throughout the campaign life of a character the DM has much more control surrounding item power... it's introduction into the campaign and it's elimination - if neccessary.

Str vs Dex - balance exists in base rule, Finesse as a feat is a trade for only one aspect of a stat into another for a reason - it maintans the balance. Had Finesse replaced the major aspect of Str stat then the result would be devastating to the existance of the core rules surrounding the Str stat... It is quite that simple.

[Rafal]

I have never built a real melee .........

Just curious, what it has to do with my post?