Divine casters and epic

[Krag]

Problem: playing offensive divine caster in epic is no fun.

Reason: epic questing is very resource extensive and there are only a few mana-efficient spells. Heal, Mass Heal, Mass Cure X. Noone likes being pigeoneholed into being a healbot but healbotting/babysitting is all clerics do in epic quests. L

Solution: Add more useful offensive divine spells.
Useful offensive spells include:
- debuffs that significantly increase DPS (i.e. Mass Hold Monster)
- no-save croud control (i.e. Otto's Irresistible Dance)
- heavy Damage-per-Mana spells (i.e. Firewall)

[Belwaar]

Mass Comet Fall ftw!!!

[Kriogen]

Mass Comet Fall ftw!!!

Meteor Shower. Once per second, for 6 seconds per caster level, Comets drop on all creatures within large area.

[Cyr]

Promlem: playing offensive divine caster in epic is no fun.

Reason: epic questing is very resource extensive and there are only a few mana-efficient spells. Heal, Mass Heal, Mass Cure X. Noone likes being pigeoneholed into being a healbot but healbotting/babysitting is all clerics do in epic quests. L

Solution: Add more useful offensive divine spells.
Useful offensive spells include:
- debuffs that significantly increase DPS (i.e. Mass Hold Monster)
- no-save croud control (i.e. Otto's Irresistible Dance)
- heavy Damage-per-Mana spells (i.e. Firewall)

So what your saying is as a divine you want to be able to do the best things an arcane can do also...

/not signed

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Promlem: playing offensive divine caster in epic is no fun.

Reason: epic questing is very resource extensive and there are only a few mana-efficient spells. Heal, Mass Heal, Mass Cure X. Noone likes being pigeoneholed into being a healbot but healbotting/babysitting is all clerics do in epic quests. L

Solution: Add more useful offensive divine spells.
Useful offensive spells include:
- debuffs that significantly increase DPS (i.e. Mass Hold Monster)
- no-save croud control (i.e. Otto's Irresistible Dance)
- heavy Damage-per-Mana spells (i.e. Firewall)

If you add all of your suggestions to the devine caster, there will be no reason to play an arcae caster...
Sounds like you should just play an arcane caster man.

P.S. Isn't Blade Barier a "heavy Damage-per-Mana spell"?

EDIT: A shucks, Cyr got there first

[sirgog]

If you add all of your suggestions to the devine caster, there will be no reason to play an arcae caster...
Sounds like you should just play an arcane caster man.

P.S. Isn't Blade Barier a "heavy Damage-per-Mana spell"?

EDIT: A shucks, Cyr got there first

BB is a trivial amount of damage in Epics. Most trash mobs survive twenty hits of a BB easily; some survive forty. Crit BBs are borderline relevant but are too rare to rely upon.

Currently, divine casters that are specced for offensive casting are gimped in Epics - all the AP and feats they invested into offensive casting (things like Spell Penetration feats/enhancements, Heighten Spell, and maxxing Wisdom) are wasted in Epics.

OTOH, divine casters shouldn't eclipse arcane casters like they did when the cap was 16 - a balance is needed.

IMO, some form of powerful crowd control that doesn't have the massive DPS increase of Mass Hold Monster is probably enough - perhaps Storm of Vengeance could be implemented like this:

Storm of Vengeance
Clr/FvS 9
Cast time: Long (as Mass Heal)
Cooldown: 30 seconds

Effect: Creates the following effects in a large (40 ft radius) sphere centered on the caster that persists for two minutes, but ends early if the caster conjures a second Storm of Vengeance:
1. Enemy movement is slowed, as a Solid Fog spell
2. Enemies are struck by lightning bolts dealing 10d10 damage once per six seconds (Reflex half). On a failed save, the foe is tripped (Balance check, DC equal to the spell DC to get up)
3. Attacks made by foes suffer a 20% concealment miss chance.

That's a spell with only modest damage output (175 damage per six seconds max-empped), but one that has a significant crowd control effect - tripping foes, helping prevent the party from becoming overwhelmed.

[Aerendil]

Aren't there a number of divine spells that offer no save and no spell resistance?

I don't see the big deal here...


PS - divine casters have never really been able to CC, except for perhaps the command line and the occasional hold. Nothing like what arcanes can do, anyways. Leave them to their forte.

[sirgog]

Aren't there a number of divine spells that offer no save and no spell resistance?

I don't see the big deal here...


PS - divine casters have never really been able to CC, except for perhaps the command line and the occasional hold. Nothing like what arcanes can do, anyways. Leave them to their forte.

Pre-Epic, they have excellent CC in Implosion (which is weaker than the arcane Wail, but still excellent). Implosion rewards a high Wisdom for DCs, and Spell Penetration.

In Epics, they have... ... ... Cometfall and Greater Command (plus the very situational Symbols, but Arcanes get them too). Two 'save or be tripped' effects - nothing really rewarding high spell DCs or Spell Penetration.


At present endgame, there is no reason whatsoever to spec a Cleric or Favored Soul in any way other than hybrid melee/healer - a build that can basically dump Wisdom. This strikes me as silly - although my main is a melee/healing hybrid cleric, I don't think two classes should be pigeonholed so narrowly.

[Diarden]

Some of the spells that work well in epics...

Heal & Mass Heal (I've solo killed Epic Rayium with Mass Heal)
Bladebarrier ( in certain situations )
Symbol of Persuasion (with a high enough DC, will ROCK in most epics)
Symbol of Stunning (increases dps for the rest of the group)

We are not meant to be pure offensive casters, that's what wizards and sorcs are for. There's no reason why we cannot be some type of hybrid, but we should not be able to fill the role completely. My Fvs/monk can heal, cast and melee dps, but the only role that I am best in is healing. That's the role I am meant to fill when I join a raid or a group, the casting or melee dps is extra.

[Aspenor]

Divine Casters do not have Hold Monster nor Mass Hold Monster on their class spell list, so that's out.

Earthquake would be okay, but isn't that great of a spell. It only lasts 1 round and doesn't do a whole lot.

Storm of Vengeance would be nice.

Clerics don't really get the great things a spellcaster gets at high level. They get some amazing spells, but not ones that'd be useful in this game. Of course, this is just looking at the PHB, I haven't gotten out the spell compendium.

[Angelus_dead]

Solution: Add more useful offensive divine spells.

That would be a useful change, but for other purposes and not really to solve the epic thing. The problems with epic mode should be mainly addressed by adjusting the design of epic mode itself.

Another helpful change would be opening Improved Heightening APs to Clerics...

- heavy Damage-per-Mana spells (i.e. Firewall)

The better way to do that is buff all other damage spells aside from FW/BB to be more efficient. The big difference in hp/sp between those lingering AOEs and everything else is too much (and prehaps the lingering AOEs should be nerfed some first). The devs would be more successful at this if they expand on their possible ways to differentiate spells- for example, maybe most non-lingering damage spells could be given an (optional) percentage reduction in spellpoint cost, so they get more efficient even without the damage going up.

[Krag]

If you add all of your suggestions to the devine caster, there will be no reason to play an arcae caster...
Sounds like you should just play an arcane caster man.

P.S. Isn't Blade Barier a "heavy Damage-per-Mana spell"?

EDIT: A shucks, Cyr got there first

You seem to believe that healing others is an advantage of divine classes. I regard it as a duty that drains your mana and makes your pocket bleed.

Arcanes can heal themselves just as good, are not expected to heal anyone (save for maintanks in two raids) and have a dosen of useful spells at any level. This is not a coincidence that the first ones to report soloing quest are always WF casters.

P.S. No. BB used to be great DPM spell midlevels, still decent in Amrath but only mediocre in epics.

[Cyr]

You seem to believe that healing others is an advantage of divine classes. I regard it as a duty that drains your mana and makes your pocket bleed.

Arcanes can heal themselves just as good, are not expected to heal anyone (save for maintanks in two raids) and have a dosen of useful spells at any level. This is not a coincidence that the first ones to report soloing quest are always WF casters.

P.S. No. BB used to be great DPM spell midlevels, still decent in Amrath but only mediocre in epics.

It sounds like you shouldn't be playing a divine. Seriously, if you hate healing others why are you not just playing a WF caster instead of trying to give the the main strengths of another class to divines?

I know which one is more likely to happen first...

[Slink]

+1 for the OP.

It sounds like you shouldn't be playing a divine. Seriously, if you hate healing others why are you not just playing a WF caster instead of trying to give the the main strengths of another class to divines?

I know which one is more likely to happen first...

I now understand your sig.

[Krag]

It sounds like you shouldn't be playing a divine. Seriously, if you hate healing others why are you not just playing a WF caster instead of trying to give the the main strengths of another class to divines?

I know which one is more likely to happen first...

What stops me from playing WF caster? Only a couple of TOD completions. Want to get a shot at +4 tome before reincarnating.

I know very few clerics that are not planning to reincarnate into melee FvS or WF arcane after getting a taste of the "endgame".

[Nezichiend]

Energy drain + hold person. It works without heighten on my clr (40 wis), so with heighten..... give it a shot. Of course it doesn't work against undead but some of the things in VoN1 it works on.

[AylinIsAwesome]

BB is a trivial amount of damage in Epics. Most trash mobs survive twenty hits of a BB easily; some survive forty. Crit BBs are borderline relevant but are too rare to rely upon.

Currently, divine casters that are specced for offensive casting are gimped in Epics - all the AP and feats they invested into offensive casting (things like Spell Penetration feats/enhancements, Heighten Spell, and maxxing Wisdom) are wasted in Epics.

OTOH, divine casters shouldn't eclipse arcane casters like they did when the cap was 16 - a balance is needed.

IMO, some form of powerful crowd control that doesn't have the massive DPS increase of Mass Hold Monster is probably enough - perhaps Storm of Vengeance could be implemented like this:

Storm of Vengeance
Clr/FvS 9
Cast time: Long (as Mass Heal)
Cooldown: 30 seconds

Effect: Creates the following effects in a large (40 ft radius) sphere centered on the caster that persists for two minutes, but ends early if the caster conjures a second Storm of Vengeance:
1. Enemy movement is slowed, as a Solid Fog spell
2. Enemies are struck by lightning bolts dealing 10d10 damage once per six seconds (Reflex half). On a failed save, the foe is tripped (Balance check, DC equal to the spell DC to get up)
3. Attacks made by foes suffer a 20% concealment miss chance.

That's a spell with only modest damage output (175 damage per six seconds max-empped), but one that has a significant crowd control effect - tripping foes, helping prevent the party from becoming overwhelmed.

I want this spell.


I dislike being told to "just heal" through a quest; watching health bars and doing nothing else is boring.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Bladebarrier works extremely well as an offensive spell, even in epic. Provided, of course, that your party is willing to cooperate with that strategy (it tends to be far more mana efficient, but far slower than meleeing through everything).

The problem really is the epic ward that makes implosion, destruction, etcetera useless, hence punishing players who invest in Spell Pen and Spell Focus.

[Chai]

So what your saying is as a divine you want to be able to do the best things an arcane can do also...

/not signed

/agree.

Give my sorc heal and mass heal, with all the apropriate amplifications, and we can talk.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Bladebarrier works extremely well as an offensive spell, even in epic. Provided, of course, that your party is willing to cooperate with that strategy (it tends to be far more mana efficient, but far slower than meleeing through everything).

The problem with Blade Barrier (and don't get me wrong, I love that spell), is that most groups don't want to work with it. Most of the time I cast it, only to see the Arcane throw a Dance Ball right on top of it (negating my spell completely) or the melee run out in front of it.

The problem really is the epic ward that makes implosion, destruction, etcetera useless, hence punishing players who invest in Spell Pen and Spell Focus.

Agree.