4fighter/16monk you're oppinion

[undrentide]

Hey guys,

Still pretty new to the forum so this also my hi post!:P
been playing for some days now and i really like it. been playing nwn for years so i know some stuff about this system. well in nwn if you played monk.. you needed to play pure monk or you would lose all the bonuses. alas on the server i played.

i wanted to try 4fighter/16monk on this server. why you ask? well with the 4 fighter i'll gain 2 extra feats. + an extra attack. or two attacks not sure as you guys say two weapon fighting is a must for a monk. so i'll believe you on that

does this work like i explained or is there a catch and do you have any suggestions?

Undrentide, Merkhud the Quick

[Kriogen]

You will gain +2 damage from Weapon Spec but lose top tier special monk-only stances. And a couple of other nice things.

No, you will not gain extra attacks. I would not be surprised if you'd lose them.

In DDO Monks get (compared to NWN):
- *full* BAB if using monks weapons (fist, kama, qstaff)
- extra feats at 1, 2 and 6. You don't really need fighter for feats.
- KI and special powers based on that KI.
- if using fists (handwraps) the highest attack speed in game. Combination of the fact that hands are the fastest weapon in game, funky/hidden extra attacks if TWF-ing with fists and top tier Air stance.

I like multiclassing, but have to say, that for damage, pure Monk is better then any MC Monk combo.

Edit: Oh, Hi. Wellcome.

[undrentide]

Thanks for your quick reply! Guess i'll go for pure monk then. I didn't know they got full BAB here?:O

[Kriogen]

Thanks for your quick reply! Guess i'll go for pure monk then. I didn't know they got full BAB here?:O

When you want to take a feat that has BAB as prereq, Monk count as 3/4 BAB. Lets say Greater TWF (BAB 11).

But in combat, when hitting stuff, they have effective 1/1 BAB.

[mjrepro]

The biggest reason this is not advisable are the following items that you will lose out on as a monk:

2D10 damage dice (will top out at 2D8)

Perfect Slow fall (Works like featherfall when activated, still lets you take no damage from falling when not activated)

Perfect Self (You are treated as an outsider for things like hold person, and you have 10/Epic Dr)

Monk end cap (You can now carry double the amount of ki based on your concentration you have before losing some, on top of being able to regen up to your concentration level. Okay not double but much much more, like in the hundred range)

Monk is one of the few classes (or so I am told) that is worth getting the end cap in and staying pure. You will gain a bit from fighter, but nothing to make up for these free feats, all of which are at 20.

Oh yeah, and also the final stances, including the final wind stance that pumps your speed up 10% insight and 15% enchantment. Those are at 18

[zealous]

I like multiclassing, but have to say, that for damage, pure Monk is better then any MC Monk combo.

While the benefits of monk18 are quite telling in the increased elemental strikes as well as the extra 2.5% attack speed from windstance, monk19-20 only grants +2 damage.

2 damage can easily be obtained by splashing.

[TPICKRELL]

Since this is your first monk, I'd recommend going pure monk also.

If in the future you decide you want to multiclass a fighter monk, look at going either 6 or 12 fighter to get the Kensai prestige class enhancements. They have decent synergy with the monk class. It quickly becomes an unarmed fighter rather than a pure monk.

I'm running leveling a WF kensai II Monk multi now in addition to my pure monk and finding it interesting to play.

[abull74]

Make sure you take toughness and all the TWF feats. You will like the speed at which you attack with maxed out wind stance and Greater Two Weapon Fighting.

I AM THE FPOON!!!

[Jamma]

While the benefits of monk18 are quite telling in the increased elemental strikes as well as the extra 2.5% attack speed from windstance, monk19-20 only grants +2 damage.

2 damage can easily be obtained by splashing.

Ok, I'll bite. What do you splash two levels of to get +2 damage all the time?

[Eurytos]

While the benefits of monk18 are quite telling in the increased elemental strikes as well as the extra 2.5% attack speed from windstance, monk19-20 only grants +2 damage.

2 damage can easily be obtained by splashing.

You should be slapped.

+1 Ki Regen until max Concentration (And Concentration+10) Will also hold Ki steady past your max concentration instead of a -1 reduction every few seconds
10 DR/Epic
Shining Star
+1 AC
Empty Body (Shadow walk, run even faster)
Perfect Slow Fall (never take falling damage)

[zealous]

You should be slapped.

Context dear Eurytos, context. None of the things you listed add damage, possibly except for the passive ki regen allowing an extra strike once in a blue moon, thus my statement that splash 2 will bring more damage to the table stands.

You should be slapped.
+1 Ki Regen until max Concentration (And Concentration+10) Will also hold Ki steady past your max concentration instead of a -1 reduction every few seconds
10 DR/Epic
Shining Star
+1 AC
Empty Body (Shadow walk, run even faster)
Perfect Slow Fall (never take falling damage)

Where to start...

19-20:
2 base damage, 9ish DPS
shining star
AC
DR; good for fights intensive enough to wear through a stone skin clicky
shadow walk; neato
capstone; nice if you're going slow or have yet to learn to maximize ki usage
...
Rogue 1:
hjeest boost: 15-20ish dps
SA: 30ish dps no fort, 15ish dps 50% fort
___
Can splash ranger for sprint boost and +3 damage against...ebil outsiders?
Can splash cleric/FvS (early) to qualify for emp healing if halfer
Can splash bard for UMD, mini fascinate, empower healing
Can splash wiz if elf to qualify for AA and meta magic feat
Can splash fighter 1 for hjeest boost, toughness enhancement(10hp) and feat, fighter 2 for an additional feat and +1 str
Can splash pally2 for saves, loh and toughness enhancement

Sure the things you get for 19-20 are neat an all. I just don't see any benefit from a min-max perspective.
Capstone: Worthless if you know how to handle ki generation
DR: Stoneskin, aggromanagement and positioning can easily match the benefit and where it can't there will likely be massheals. Main benefit would be needing less thought/item management imo.
Shining star: Dunno, can be useful in epics or so I've heard. How often do you land it against epic mobs, i.e. how much ki/success on average? Does it make things die faster? Save resources?
+1 AC: Either you're running content where AC matters and you as a 18monk can reach untouchable AC without it or you're running content where AC doesn't matter and it's unimportant.
Shadow walk:UMD
Perfect slow fall:Like any character capable to drop like a rock and put on ff right before hitting the ground?

*reels back from the slap*
Don't know really, they're fun and unique and gives character to your character. If that's your thing there's nothing wrong with that. If you find them benefiting your character then that's good for you, doesn't mean everyone has to do and think the same way though.

Personally I prefer haste boost, sprint boost, sneak attack, full ranks in intimidate, full ranks in umd, +1AC and +3 damage to raid boss of choice.

Gain some, loose some. Same same but different.

[Eurytos]

Shining star is very useful in epic. Works well to CC epic beholders, casters, etc. before your caster or bards gets to them. Works very well on trolls, ogres, and other low will save hard-hitting mobs too. Monks run fast and often are able to get to a fight before everyone else, use shining star and start fighting while people catch up.

None of the options you provide are worth splashing another class. Pure monk is still a much much better option.

Fighter gives you 10hp and +1 str through enhancements, so net gain of -1 damage (from monk's 2) and 10hp if you get an even str. Also 2 fighter feats, but honestly, what would you use it on?

Ranger will give you +3 damage to raid boss of your choice, or stay monk and get +2 damage to everything. Which is more beneficial?

Paladin would give you saves, and a ~40hp LoH. Pointless considering monk saves are awesome and most things you need saves for are covered by spells.

Bard for UMD? A pure monk can get enough UMD to do anything they need to do with it with the right gear.

Besides, lowering monk levels lowers your DC to everything since monk DCs are calculated by 10 + Monk Level (or Half for stun/qp) + Wis/Cha bonus.




Gain some, lose a lot.

[Kriogen]

You can't mix Bard and Monk.

Monks is a little bit like Barbarian when it comes to multiclassing. A warrior that gets nice things at higher levels.

One of the "problems" here is, that its a Warrior. Warriors fight. But Monk is not the only warrior class. So if you MC too much and you know that you get nice things at top levels (but will not if you MC too much) you can ask yourself: why even bother, why not go <insert-other-warrior-class>?

I tried many combos, and the only combo that I found to be interesting, fun, not weak and still sort-of-Monk was Monk/Rogue.

With Monk/Rogue combo, you can max many (tho not all) skills, you get some self heal with wands/scrolls (UMD). You lose some top end Monks damage, but gain that back with Sneak Attacks. You even get that Attack Speed Boost. It also "sounds" as some sort of stealthy ninja thief/assasin

[zealous]

Shining star is very useful in epic. Works well to CC epic beholders, casters, etc. before your caster or bards gets to them. Works very well on trolls, ogres, and other low will save hard-hitting mobs too. Monks run fast and often are able to get to a fight before everyone else, use shining star and start fighting while people catch up.

If you're confident in claiming that, why didn't you provide the details I specifically asked for?
Are epic beholders, casters, etc. immune to nausea?
If will saves are low, landing e.g. mass hold should be quite feasible, yah?
If the monk can survive the time alone, might as well spend that extra time making the mobs die faster?
And if you don't care for epic?

None of the options you provide are worth splashing another class. Pure monk is still a much much better option.

Then you only need to prove that there is no splash bringing anything to the build that the monk cannot match or surpass.

Fighter gives you 10hp and +1 str through enhancements, so net gain of -1 damage (from monk's 2) and 10hp if you get an even str. Also 2 fighter feats, but honestly, what would you use it on?

You don't mention haste boost which would suggest either being untruthful, ignorant or simply not having read my post thoroughly.

Worthwhile feats to take from fighter splash...

Monk Feat Choices
Greater Two Weapon Fighting - Must Have 3
This is a must have. Do not roll a monk without this.
Power Attack - Must Have 1
Also a must have. Monk's are a melee class first and foremost. To be useful, monks need to deal damage.
Improved Critical: Bludgeon - Must Have 1
Sure we only crit on a 19-20, and it's only x2, but still, we need to do damage
Toughness - Must Have (multiple is good) 1+
Monks are hurting with hit points. Especially non-warforged or dwarf monks. On the bright side, monks also get extra feats, use them for toughness.
Weapon Finesse - Useful 1
Of course, get Weapon Finesse if you choose to go DEX Based.
Weapon Focus: Bludgeon - Useful 1
If STR based, take this instead of Weapon Finesse. Even if you're DEX based and happy with your hit points, take this to add some to-hit.
Stunning Fist - Somewhat Useless 1
It will work well leveling up if you have a decent wisdom, but once you reach the 19-20 range and start doing hard/elite and even epics, it will stop working nearly entirely.
Combat Expertise - Useless 1
AC will never be high enough on elite and epic, most finishing moves turn off Combat Expertise, and you can't use Power Attack with CE on.

6+ must and 1-2 useful according to your opinion
Add past life paladin, monk and rogue, possibly fighter too: 3-4
If you take 1 fighter level you'd be well off taking quickdraw to utilize haste boost:1

Not to mention:
Stunning fist can be useful: 1
Stunning blow and sap are freebies: 0-2
Need an additional feat for shintao: 1
Halfling dragon marks could be nice: 3
Feats for intimidate:0-3
Completionist =P:1

So many good feats, so few feat slots.

Ranger will give you +3 damage to raid boss of your choice, or stay monk and get +2 damage to everything. Which is more beneficial?

Can you not see the bias of comparing taking 1 ranger level with taking 2 monk levels?

It's not only +3 damage to raid boss of your choice, it's that and more. Personally I'd consider sprintboost worth more or less everything you gain from the last 2 monk levels, get there faster and do stuff and all that.

Paladin would give you saves, and a ~40hp LoH. Pointless considering monk saves are awesome and most things you need saves for are covered by spells.

Can potentially free a item slot, smites can be nice on stunned mobs, LoH can be neat. Having higher saves might allow for lower stats.
Remind me, what is the minimum required fort/reflex/will needed to never ever fail on a 2?

Bard for UMD? A pure monk can get enough UMD to do anything they need to do with it with the right gear.

No they can't, you need to factor actual gameplay.
11 ranks+4gh+5 umd item+6 shroud item+7 cha (8base+6item+4tome+2excep+2yugo+2store)+2 HoGF+2 insp.comp=>fail chance heal scrolling with massive item swapping

23 ranks +4gh +3 umd item +5(8base+4pot+4tome+2yugo+2store) cha+1 focusing chant+2insp.comp=>lower fail chance heal scrolling without massive item swapping, no fail heal scrolling with miniscule item swapping.

The voiding of item swapping greatly enhances the utility, being able to reach high UMD prior to reaching the required level and/or obtaining said items is paramount in some cases.

Besides, lowering monk levels lowers your DC to everything since monk DCs are calculated by 10 + Monk Level (or Half for stun/qp) + Wis/Cha bonus.

The situations where the difference in DC would have much of a impact is incidently the times where your ki is better spent on other things.

Gain some, lose a lot.

So you claim but fail to show.

The only thing even remotely going for your line of argument is that shining star supposedly is essential for running epic which is somewhat shaky grounds to base an argument on due to there being alternatives to shining star as well as alternatives to running epic.

[zealous]

You can't mix Bard and Monk.

That would be taking non-theoretical aspects into account and we can't have that, can we.

Monks is a little bit like Barbarian when it comes to multiclassing. A warrior that gets nice things at higher levels.

Quite contrary. Monk is very front loaded while the last 8 levels or so doesn't grant as much benefit.

Barbarian on the other hand has the majority of it's potential tied to it's PrC and the majority of the benefit of the PrC tied to latter tiers, not to mention the capstone.

Monk PrCs might very likely increase the benefit of monk 18, currently they do not.

One of the "problems" here is, that its a Warrior. Warriors fight. But Monk is not the only warrior class. So if you MC too much and you know that you get nice things at top levels (but will not if you MC too much) you can ask yourself: why even bother, why not go <insert-other-warrior-class>?

Because you can gain more from multiclassing?
Because you gain something from going mainly monk?

I tried many combos, and the only combo that I found to be interesting, fun, not weak and still sort-of-Monk was Monk/Rogue.

Take any of the popular fighter based builds, exchange fighter levels for monk levels and start from that. Nice versatile platform with plenty of good splits for multiclassing.

Take a look at e.g. special forces, dominator, monkster etc.

Plenty of "undiscovered" monk based builds.

[oweieie]

DR: Stoneskin,

Some mobs bypass adamantine. And as you're DPS focused, the time taken to constantly rebuff stoneskin is a pretty massive DPS loss and a pain in the butt on par with being light path.

[zealous]

Some mobs bypass adamantine.

Very important since those mobs are so common and dangerous?

Duergar who melee and the Stormreaver when he melee's. There may be a select few others who can bypass this, but the list is really short.

And as you're DPS focused, the time taken to constantly rebuff stoneskin is a pretty massive DPS loss and a pain in the butt on par with being light path.

DR: Stoneskin, aggromanagement and positioning can easily match the benefit and where it can't there will likely be massheals.

I.e. If you do not have access to neither stoneskin nor aggromanagement or AC or...

DR is always nice, it is however only really useful if your playing lowbie content on normal or if your holding a shield and pressing the shift button.

The monk "should" only have aggro if it's beneficial to the group that the monk has aggro, i.e. in content where AC matters if that monk has sufficient AC. Otherwise you might as well have someone else keep the aggro, e.g. some other monk that didn't splash for DPS/utility.

[Eurytos]

If you're confident in claiming that, why didn't you provide the details I specifically asked for?
Are epic beholders, casters, etc. immune to nausea?
If will saves are low, landing e.g. mass hold should be quite feasible, yah?
If the monk can survive the time alone, might as well spend that extra time making the mobs die faster?
And if you don't care for epic?

Landing mass hold IS feasible as long as the caster is decent. Sure you can use the dark finishers, but again, dropping 2 levels of monk drops the DC on those by 2. So it's still a losing situation. If you don't care for epic, there is still hard and elite that will give you problems. Normal and Casual? Sure build whatever character you want.

Then you only need to prove that there is no splash bringing anything to the build that the monk cannot match or surpass.

Damage wise, you can maybe match it with another class, but then you lose monk abilities and DCs. It's personal preference, but I still stand by my point. 20 Monk > 18/2.

You don't mention haste boost which would suggest either being untruthful, ignorant or simply not having read my post thoroughly.

Teir 1 haste boost for a maximum 5 times is so minor it isn't even worth considering. The amount of attacks lost activating it would equal the amount of attacks gained with the speed.

Not to mention:
Stunning fist can be useful: 1
Stunning blow and sap are freebies: 0-2
Need an additional feat for shintao: 1
Halfling dragon marks could be nice: 3
Feats for intimidate:0-3
Completionist =P:1

So many good feats, so few feat slots.

You took that list from my Building an EPIC viable monk thread. Don't quote that thread then tell me some of those feats will be useful in non-elite/epic content because everyone knows that. All those feats are terribly useless on epic. Healing Dragonmarks are not worth the feats even for casual content. 3 feats for 3 Heals? Give me a break.

Can you not see the bias of comparing taking 1 ranger level with taking 2 monk levels?

It's not only +3 damage to raid boss of your choice, it's that and more. Personally I'd consider sprintboost worth more or less everything you gain from the last 2 monk levels, get there faster and do stuff and all that.

Sprint Boost? On a Monk? You're already running a LOT faster than everyone else, why would you ever need to go faster? You really think 10% speed boost is worth splashing ranger?

Can potentially free a item slot, smites can be nice on stunned mobs, LoH can be neat. Having higher saves might allow for lower stats.
Remind me, what is the minimum required fort/reflex/will needed to never ever fail on a 2?

Smites are horrible when compared to Earth 4 > earth 3 > fist of Iron > Trembling earth chain. Using that chain is a constant attack rotation, no time to use anything else and smites will not do more damage than any of those 4. Almost everything you need saves for can be covered by spells.

Deathward, Protection from Evil, Freedom of Movement, etc.

So you claim but fail to show.

You still haven't provided any viable splash that wouldn't be worse than staying pure... except for UMD (Rogue Splash as bard is not compatible with Monk)

[Eurytos]

Take any of the popular fighter based builds, exchange fighter levels for monk levels and start from that. Nice versatile platform with plenty of good splits for multiclassing.

Take a look at e.g. special forces, dominator, monkster etc.

Plenty of "undiscovered" monk based builds.

All of which have been proven to be "just as good" as a pure 20 monk, without the Monk's class defining abilities.

[zealous]

Landing mass hold IS feasible as long as the caster is decent. Sure you can use the dark finishers, but again, dropping 2 levels of monk drops the DC on those by 2. So it's still a losing situation.

If you have a charisma equal to your wisdom, which you likely do not.

Damage wise, you can maybe match it with another class, but then you lose monk abilities and DCs. It's personal preference, but I still stand by my point. 20 Monk > 18/2.

1d6+3 Sneak attack + 3 FE + haste boost >> 2 damage.

Teir 1 haste boost for a maximum 5 times is so minor it isn't even worth considering. The amount of attacks lost activating it would equal the amount of attacks gained with the speed.

2:30 should realisticly be ~all a competent group need for any fight of consequence, i.e. any fight where DPS is important.

Haste boost provides 15% boost for 18.8s without, 19.4s with quickdraw, 1.2/0.6s lost.

Unarmed Duration(0,67-(0,0091*5)=0.62
Offset Unarmed: 0,08
off/base=0.129
Duration modifier UNBOOSTED:0.9 insight *0.8 madstone*0.95 fudge=0.684
Duration Modifiers BOOSTED:0.84 unboosted * 0.85 boost=0.5814

Unboosted rate increase: 1/(0.684-0.684*0.129+0.129)=1.38
Boosted rate increase: 1/(0.5814-0.5814*0.129+0.129)=1.57
Avg. during boost without qd: (18.8*1.57+10*1.38)/30=1.444
Avg. during boost with qd: (19.4*1.57+10*1.38)/30=1.475
Gain without qd:1.444/1.38=1.046, 4.6% gain ~4.6 damage/swing
Gain with qd:1.475/1.38=1.069, 6.9% gain ~6.9 damage/swing


derived from:http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...5&postcount=15

You took that list from my Building an EPIC viable monk thread. Don't quote that thread then tell me some of those feats will be useful in non-elite/epic content because everyone knows that.

So if you know that there are plenty of feats useful in non-epic content, why did you claim that you where ignorant as to what to use two extra feats on...

All those feats are terribly useless on epic. Healing Dragonmarks are not worth the feats even for casual content. 3 feats for 3 Heals? Give me a break.

None of those feats are terribly useless on epic, healing dragonmarks are not "all those feats". If you have the feats for it, the potential healing for the dragonmarks is some 4000 hitpoints/shrine.

Sprint Boost? On a Monk? You're already running a LOT faster than everyone else, why would you ever need to go faster? You really think 10% speed boost is worth splashing ranger?

It's a 35% boost so quite substantial. You might need it to keep up with the leap of faithing Favored souls. Some people like fast quest completions.

Wether its about zerging for completion, twitch fighting, ignoring DA or collecting mobs for persistant AOEs, it's very very nice to have.

Smites are horrible when compared to Earth 4 > earth 3 > fist of Iron > Trembling earth chain. Using that chain is a constant attack rotation, no time to use anything else and smites will not do more damage than any of those 4. Almost everything you need saves for can be covered by spells.

Deathward, Protection from Evil, Freedom of Movement, etc.

A high level monk throws some 2.2 attack animations/s, if using 4 strikes is a constant attack rotation for you, you are not punching those buttons as fast as you can.

level 2 paladin smite adds 13 damage, this is more or less the same as earth III.

There are plenty of spells and abilities not covered by the buffs you stated.

You still haven't provided any viable splash that wouldn't be worse than staying pure... except for UMD (Rogue Splash as bard is not compatible with Monk)

Oh but I have, multiple times...