4fighter/16monk you're oppinion

[zealous]

All of which have been proven to be "just as good" as a pure 20 monk, without the Monk's class defining abilities.

All those builds has higher DPS than a pure monk.
The dominator has excessively more dps than a pure monk.
The Monkster is a way better tank than a pure monk.
The Special forces build has a...viable ranged option.

They beat the pure monk at core capabilities and bring something extra to the party.

[Eurytos]

I've done excessive calculations comparing a pure monk to a dominator along with the Dominator's creator. The dominator comes out to be roughly 10-20 DPS higher than a monk in perfect situations (100% sneak attack, no fortification, no delay from haste boost activation.) Once you start considering "less than perfect" situations, then factor in constructs, elementals, undead, the Monk pulls ahead in all around DPS.

The Dominator can't even provide any monk buffs. It brings nothing to the party other than open locks.


12Ftr/8Monk builds are fairly common for the Kensai, but again, when considering all-around DPS, that build falls behind both the Dominator and the Pure Monk... but at least that build brings light path buffs to the group.

Here's a link to the raw numbers
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=26

[zealous]

I've done excessive calculations comparing a pure monk to a dominator along with the Dominator's creator. The dominator comes out to be roughly 10-20 DPS higher than a monk in perfect situations (100% sneak attack, no fortification, no delay from haste boost activation.) Once you start considering "less than perfect" situations, then factor in constructs, elementals, undead, the Monk pulls ahead in all around DPS.

The Dominator can't even provide any monk buffs. It brings nothing to the party other than open locks.


12Ftr/8Monk builds are fairly common for the Kensai, but again, when considering all-around DPS, that build falls behind both the Dominator and the Pure Monk... but at least that build brings light path buffs to the group.

Here's a link to the raw numbers
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=26

Ah yes, but let's use calculations not using numbers pulled out of thin air shall we
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=29

And tbh you did state 40DPS advantage to the dominator, not 10-20.

You have a point with:

- Touch of Death accounts for 33.33DPS increase.
- Earth Strike IV on a 3 second cool down does +32 damage on non-crit (16 per hand). 32 every 4 seconds is roughly 8DPS.
- Earth Strike III on a 3 second cool down does +24 damage on non-crit (12 per hand). 24 every 4 seconds is roughly 6DPS.
- Storm Strike IV or Fires of Purity IV does 2d20 (10.5) damage per hand. 21 every 4 seconds is roughly 5.25DPS each.

One should ofc account for the monk strikes.
at 4.45 attacks/s you'll be looking at a ki generation of ~10ki/s3-3,33 for ToD leaving enough for what you specified. If we correctly take the average of 2d20 to be 21 we'll land in the vicinity of the ~60 DPS you stated. Thus leaving the dominator at a substantial 10% advantage for "Epic quests where you spend 15 minutes of non stop epic brute force fighting".

Using regular averages wouldn't be very accurate due to spending at least some portion of killing mobs hitting stunned mobs. I.e. the %crits would be in excess of 10%.

On stunned mobs the monk would indeed gain:
*EIV + EIII; double gain for extra 14DPS
*foi:50*2/4=>25DPS
*te:50*4/4=>50DPS
*spamming additional strikes due to higher ki generation:10-20ish DPS
for a total of: +~100 DPS the dominator doesn't get.

Meanwhile the dominator switches to heavy picks, retains a higher attack bonus and reaches a DPS in the range of 2-3 times as high as with unarmed.

That's besides the point though, neither the dominator nor monk are optimal for stunned mob dps. And neither do you regularly have to brute force chew yourself through in excess of 20+millions hps worth of trash before getting to shrine.
5min is generally accepted as the swing time for dps calcs for a reason.

I'll grant you this though, for epic quests where you brute force 20million hp trash without rest, the monk almost reach close to the same dps as the dominator.

For the rest of the game there is no doubt that a pure monk is way, way behind. And well they should be seeing as they have some nice fluff, running speed and no PrCs.

[Eurytos]

Wow you are impossible. You think my numbers are pulled out of thin air so you link her numbers which are exactly the same within a few points after the addition of ki strikes?

Switching to Heavy Picks is even MORE attacks lost than using boosts and power surges alone. Even with quick draw, swapping weapons will cause multiple attacks to be lost. It will also take the Dominator out of stance, and make them unable to stun anything else for the group until they swap back to handwraps. In a good group, you just don't have the time to be messing around swapping weapons or things will be dying while you're fumbling with weapons.

How much experience do you have playing with a good pure monk? I guarantee you have none. I will keep up with some of the best barbarians, fighters, and paladins on Khyber in kills while intentionally fighting different targets than they are to compare.

Aside from number crunching, the monk speed can even be considered DPS (much like Barbarian speed.) Often times, myself and the barb are way ahead killing things before the rest of the group waddles over to the fight. A Paladin friend of mine with red scale plate, epic sos, various other epic items and overall great gear and skill (smite crits for over 1200 for christ's sake) can't keep up with us in kills because he just can't keep up with our pace. Remove monk speed from a monk based build and you will have that same problem and drop in "real time DPS". Hell, even my barbarian friend (Shade on forums) often comes around swinging at my targets when they're low

Take a Dominator on a run with a good monk and a good Barbarian and they won't be able to keep pace. Now put a monk and dominator in Epic Wizking and see who does better. My monk can hit the mummies with touch of death and purple number fire ki strikes while the dominator is stuck doing yellow damage with poor ki strikes. With Red scale robe, now my monk can do 250-300 damage non-crit breath of fire and up to 550+ crit breaths on multiple mummies provided failed reflex save (50% if save.) The Pure monk will also be able to debuff targets with All Consuming Flame to buff the caster's firewalls on key targets, and will be able to touch of despair the clay golems to enable crits and drop them like they were on Casual.

The Epic Marut in VoN3 is a pain in the ass for some groups because of how long it takes. Pair a crit firewall with All-Consuming Flame, add Touch of Despair, and watch it drop like a rock.

Now if I were a light monk, the healers and casters would be using 25% less SP all the time and either enable more CC, buffs, or DPS.

Plain and simple, a pure monk brings a LOT more to the group than a Dominator (nothing). There are better monk based builds out there, just because it has the biggest # out of some excel calculator doesn't make it the best build in the world. There are too many variables to consider that DPS Calculations are never the defining point.

As it stands, my pure monk, who isn't even TR'd yet, already consistently outkills 90% of the barbarians, fighters and paladins on the server while bringing more to the table through debuffs and cc than a Dominator ever could. Number crunch and theory craft all you like, the pure monk (or at least 18+ monk) is the most versatile option for all-around DPS in actual play testing.

I'll leave you with a shot of Shade and I. If you know Shade on these forums you know what he's capable of.

A well built, well equipped, and well played level 20 pure-class monk is an exceptionally powerful character. Weakness at any of the three seriously cripples them however, which is why they're considered (at least by us) an advanced class.

[zealous]

Wow you are impossible. You think my numbers are pulled out of thin air so you link her numbers which are exactly the same within a few points after the addition of ki strikes?

Your numbers were way off, 100 is not "within a few points".
I do not see "there are viables to pure monk" as being impossible, refusing to see that others might enjoy different aspects of the game and other builds thus being more viable than alternatives I'd call if not "being impossible" then surely narrow minded.

Switching to Heavy Picks is even MORE attacks lost than using boosts and power surges alone. Even with quick draw, swapping weapons will cause multiple attacks to be lost.

It would result in a substantially higher dps gain though so more "worth it" than using boosts and power surge combined.

~twice the dps means that as long as mobs survive for some 4-5 seconds you gain from swapping.

It will also take the Dominator out of stance, and make them unable to stun anything else for the group until they swap back to handwraps.

Unless it dual wields a pick with a warhammer, still getting substantially higher stunned dps.

Or optionally, the dominator/monk build focuses on stunning stuff and leave the killing to characters with high multiplier weapons.

In a good group, you just don't have the time to be messing around swapping weapons or things will be dying while you're fumbling with weapons.

This stands in stark contrast to "15 minutes continuous fighting without shrines". Can't have it both ways. Either the mobs take some 1-2 minutes to kill, or you're assumptions are fatally flawed.

How much experience do you have playing with a good pure monk? I guarantee you have none. I will keep up with some of the best barbarians, fighters, and paladins on Khyber in kills while intentionally fighting different targets than they are to compare.

And I would "rock the kill count" on my wis built monk lacking ToD rings even when I wasn't doing focused kill stealing while grouping with barbs, fighters and paladins. Against a real dps build, I would have to do focused kill stealing to "rock the kill count".
The only thing that means is that you're a competent and sufficiently twinked player, doesn't say much about the potential of your build compared to a real dps build.

Aside from number crunching, the monk speed can even be considered DPS (much like Barbarian speed.) Often times, myself and the barb are way ahead killing things before the rest of the group waddles over to the fight. A Paladin friend of mine with red scale plate, epic sos, various other epic items and overall great gear and skill (smite crits for over 1200 for christ's sake) can't keep up with us in kills because he just can't keep up with our pace. Remove monk speed from a monk based build and you will have that same problem and drop in "real time DPS". Hell, even my barbarian friend (Shade on forums) often comes around swinging at my targets when they're low

True, movement speed can be advantageous in moving between targets, moving between encounters and also to void damage taken.

Once again, if the whole party isn't needed there, what you're facing is trivial and relative dps of scant importance. Unless you're talking about some hypothetical situation where you have just enough dps/survivability to remain standing in time for the party to get there.

Take a Dominator on a run with a good monk and a good Barbarian and they won't be able to keep pace.

If the content is so trivial that this is feasible, the barb, monk and dominator piking at the entrance while a FvS goes for completion is viable, might not be fun though.

Also, you don't have to kill anything, often you don't need to kill more then one or two mobs. If you're running ahead and killing everything you're not helping the group as much as you can, just prep the mobs and move on.

Now put a monk and dominator in Epic Wizking and see who does better. My monk can hit the mummies with touch of death and purple number fire ki strikes while the dominator is stuck doing yellow damage with poor ki strikes.

Yes, the dominator will loose some dps against undead. Take raid of your choice where the dominator will be permaboosted...

With Red scale robe, now my monk can do 250-300 damage non-crit breath of fire and up to 550+ crit breaths on multiple mummies provided failed reflex save (50% if save.)

Why would you lower your overall dps by using breath of fire?
250-300<<400

The Pure monk will also be able to debuff targets with All Consuming Flame to buff the caster's firewalls on key targets, and will be able to touch of despair the clay golems to enable crits and drop them like they were on Casual.

The Epic Marut in VoN3 is a pain in the ass for some groups because of how long it takes. Pair a crit firewall with All-Consuming Flame, add Touch of Despair, and watch it drop like a rock.

Showing that sometimes 1 monk + 4 dominators is slightly better than 5 dominators?

Now if I were a light monk, the healers and casters would be using 25% less SP all the time and either enable more CC, buffs, or DPS.

With even lower dps output. Doing something any build with a monk3 splash could do. SP that might not be needed.

Plain and simple, a pure monk brings a LOT more to the group than a Dominator (nothing). There are better monk based builds out there, just because it has the biggest # out of some excel calculator doesn't make it the best build in the world. There are too many variables to consider that DPS Calculations are never the defining point.

It does not bring a LOT more, it brings different things.

Not the best build in the world, but a very high balanced dps.

The mechanics of this game might seem complicated, they are however not. You can enumerate pretty much everything and the only error of the calcultations will be when knowledge is incomplete. E.g. if one erroneously assumes that the barbarian capstone doesn't give a 10% attack speed boost on account of such a boost not being listed.

As it stands, my pure monk, who isn't even TR'd yet, already consistently outkills 90% of the barbarians, fighters and paladins on the server while bringing more to the table through debuffs and cc than a Dominator ever could. Number crunch and theory craft all you like, the pure monk (or at least 18+ monk) is the most versatile option for all-around DPS in actual play testing.

You state pure classes, can you account for the equipment, build and play skill of all their players and further substantiate that they consist a fair representation of the class. Why do you not list any dps focused build?

You talk about bringing more to the table in the form of debuffs yet you give no example outside of epic where they would be desireable, you are also unwilling or incapable of even giving a estimate on the %success.

You're experience would not consist of play testing since it hasn't been done in a controlled manner. You're likely to suffer from expectation bias as well as wishful thinking.

I'll leave you with a shot of Shade and I. If you know Shade on these forums you know what he's capable of.

This screenshot is quite interesting in that the completion time is 46minutes for a quest with 3 shrines. Thus you yourself disprove the validity of your assumption about 15minutes of continuous fighting.
...

One interesting aspect about that quote of Eladrin is that monk when that post was made was substantially weaker than it is now. Monk was fine, pale master is fine...as long as you know the future plans for it?

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Don't get me wrong though. Judging from your posts you might be one of the few players in the game actually making a monk perform close to optimal and I do not for one second dispute the fact that said potential is very high.

Some builds can currently trade monk stuff for other stuff, which some people might value a good trade, others a bad trade.

Whatever side you're on, as long as the character has the right twink and player it's kinda moot since both will be good enough.

Another couple of points I'm continously trying to make is:
A. ToD rings are bad in that they do not benefit monks but benefit any build with 1 monk level. The badness being that with ToD rings and sufficiently good wraps unarmed rivals any other combat style. This has some serious implications for what wraps you can add without tipping the "care more bout efficiency than looks" scale wholly towards wraps.

B. Haste boost is imbalanced. The relative worth of haste boost compared to other boosts is somewhat silly. Haste boost is overpowered.

[Eurytos]

"Within a few points" meaning the differences were the same between dominator and monk. When considering ki strikes, our #s were very close.

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Your point about heavy picks and warhammers is correct. Which is why I say anyone taking a substantial amount of fighter levels should just use real fighter type weapons. Handwraps not needed.

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15 min / shrine part, depends on the group but yes, argument goes both ways.

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Can't kill steal when you're fighting different targets... and the people I play with are twinked to hell. Axer in 34283 epic items, epic sos, red scale, etc, Galakilz 36p pally with epic sos, red scale, etc.
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Breath of Fire hits multile mobs. Not 1. If fighting 1, yes just plain melee dps is faster, but monk fire ki strikes far surpasses any fighter hybrid because of the mummies taking double damage. (Fire IV does 30-40+ on each fist for example.)

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Light monk doing nothing a /3monk splash can't do: Precisely why I'm a dark monk.

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What you're fighting is trivial etc... Epic mobs, stun + monk dance = no need for caster/healer. If fighting groups of things without high will save, i can put a dance on something new every 4 seconds. Almost as effective as a caster with irresistable dance.

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% Success = ~80% on trolls/ogres/minotaurs/anything with lower will saves for Dance. Clay Golems in epic wizking and any non-red name elemental also 80% on touch of despair. Paralyze finisher works well on those with lower fort save than will save. That's with 8+2+6 cha.

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Completion time @46 min: We should have actually been faster, had to wait a bit for caster who joined and had to clear gateway alone.


On a side note:
Just finished an epic VoN3 with my monk + a newly leveled dex based light monk. Was my smoothest run yet with 2 monks able to CC and stun along with her light buffs. Cleric and caster both skipped a shrine and we did it just as fast as monk + barbarian + paladin runs. The difference in DPS between the various builds we're talking about isn't astronomical. One wouldn't notice the difference between having one in the group or the other (DPS wise) so it's up to the player to decide which they want to play.