Best Ranged build?!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Elf Rogue18/Rgr1/caster1 Assassin III/AA?! Hmmm.....



Edit: maybe Brd 1 with a max perfom skill?

[sigtrent]

Doesn't tell us much... why do you think it would be best?

I'd think it would be hard to beat full ranger due to the end-cap ability (are there stacking limitations on it?). Sneak attack on a ranged build rarely works out well due to the really short distance where it applies.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Doesn't tell us much... why do you think it would be best?

I'd think it would be hard to beat full ranger due to the end-cap ability (are there stacking limitations on it?). Sneak attack on a ranged build rarely works out well due to the really short distance where it applies.

Assasin III vorpal effect works with ranged weapons. Add slayer arrows.
SA is just nice to have. SA does do a large amount of damage. But the Assassin III is what I'm going for.

[MrCow]

Assasin III vorpal effect works with ranged weapons. Add slayer arrows.
SA is just nice to have. SA does do a large amount of damage. But the Assassin III is what I'm going for.

Just remember, the Assassin III vorpal works only on a sneak attack (which means you have to be within 30 feet of the critter on a ranged weapon).

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I guess Assassin III only works at close range too...so maybe it won't be as effective as I first thought.

However, I routinelly see SA damage on a bow. But certainly not all the time.
You have to be close....which isn't the ideal way to use a bow. And you have to not have agro. Which is easy to do, but is not usually the situations I want to use a bow up close for. (monster running away from me after I hurt him, monster doing excessive damage to me so begin circle kiting as a defensive move.)

[Deathseeker]

I'm confused (which is not unusual for me)...

Doesnt the assasinate III vorpal happen on a natural 20? Don't the slayer arrows hit on a natural 20? Thus, it seems there isn't a lot of synergy here. Sure, 20's are great, but is the incremental lift from slayer on a 20 to vorpal on a 20 really worth going all the way to Rogue 18?

Seems like Kensai III or the Ranger capstone give more incremental benefit in parallel with slayer than does assassinate III which appears to somewhat overlap it?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'm confused (which is not unusual for me)...

Doesnt the assasinate III vorpal happen on a natural 20? Don't the slayer arrows hit on a natural 20? Thus, it seems there isn't a lot of synergy here. Sure, 20's are great, but is the incremental lift from slayer on a 20 to vorpal on a 20 really worth going all the way to Rogue 18?

Seems like Kensai III or the Ranger capstone give more incremental benefit in parallel with slayer than does assassinate III which appears to somewhat overlap it?

That too...

I guess it's not such a great idea after all.

[Seikojin]

I guess Assassin III only works at close range too...so maybe it won't be as effective as I first thought.

However, I routinelly see SA damage on a bow. But certainly not all the time.
You have to be close....which isn't the ideal way to use a bow. And you have to not have agro. Which is easy to do, but is not usually the situations I want to use a bow up close for. (monster running away from me after I hurt him, monster doing excessive damage to me so begin circle kiting as a defensive move.)

When doing closed range combat, circle kiting is not defensive to me, lol! I think it is extremely effective in keeping the mobs in control. And if you kite properly, you can line up alot of mobs in 30 and do small loops where you target the last guy in the line to maximize the use of improved precision. Mix that with manyshot and your assassinate 3, and you can force alot of mobs to make saves vs death.

Also, your sneaks would work with paralized mobs right? So if your bow is para, you can lock them all down in a line and kill them with ranged dps.

[Deathseeker]

How about this one instead...I've been playing around with the concept...

Zealot Archer = 15 Pally / 3 Rogue / 2 Ranger

The pally gives you +5 dmg / +5 to hit from divine favor, and +6 damage from divine might, and 2d6+3 sneak attack. And the big kicker...+10% speed bonus from Zeal! Add in 5 rogue haste boosts for burst dps, favored enemy undead and hunter of the undead, and I think this looks to compare very well with Ranger 20 and Ftr 18 / X / X. Less burst dps than the fighter, but has a lot of survivability stuff (resists, lay on hands, etc). And I think it has more burst dps than a Ranger 20 (though less sustained dps against the ranger's favored enemies).

Note I've ignored smites and the divine attack that does light damage (forget the name) because they don't work on ranged.

Any thoughts to save me from making a big long post on this only to be embarrassed by something obvious Im missing.

Thoughts?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

When doing closed range combat, circle kiting is not defensive to me, lol! I think it is extremely effective in keeping the mobs in control. And if you kite properly, you can line up alot of mobs in 30 and do small loops where you target the last guy in the line to maximize the use of improved precision. Mix that with manyshot and your assassinate 3, and you can force alot of mobs to make saves vs death.

Also, your sneaks would work with paralized mobs right? So if your bow is para, you can lock them all down in a line and kill them with ranged dps.

I don't think SA works with paralyzers.

I hate to kite. Others hate it more. What I do when I am overmatched...like say I have agro from one guy who is kicking my butt... I will jump back, pull out my bow and kite in circles...jumping all the time. runnong him back and forth through the party in the hopes that someone else will eventually pull him off of me or eventually that I will kill him myself without getting hit from him again.

It's just an alternative to normal kiting that keeps him closer to the rest of the party.

I also use circle kiting against some casters....mostly lower lvl ones... to avoid those overpowered scorching rays in Irestone for instance.

Anyway, the defensive part is trying to not be hit by him.

I also use Manyshot at times even at close range, because for most of my Rgrs it does the most burst DPS. Manyshot tends to draw agro quickly. Cicle kitiing is a more party friendly optiuon for dealing with that agro.

I don't actually have a high lvl AA yet. To test Slaying arrows myself.
Nor do I have an Assassin III yet.
So the mechanics of it all is not really something I'm familiar enough with to be sure of how to use them.


Oh well. Seemed a good idea when I thought of it.

[Seikojin]

I think the OP is hoping to range assinate. Or if they were human, multishot range assassinate through targets with precise shot, which can be built.

[Seikojin]

Alot of combat can be done in 30 and still keep you safe. So it is possible, even without slaying arrows. If you were assassinate 3, and slaying arrows, thats two saves versus death.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Alot of combat can be done in 30 and still keep you safe. So it is possible, even without slaying arrows. If you were assassinate 3, and slaying arrows, thats two saves versus death.

I do think that a Rogue with Improved Precise Shot could do some amazing damage with a ranged weapon, with little effort. Just make sure someone else gets agro. then come in close and shoot through the whole crowd.

[Seikojin]

I do think that a Rogue with Improved Precise Shot could do some amazing damage with a ranged weapon, with little effort. Just make sure someone else gets agro. then come in close and shoot through the whole crowd.

Definitely would need an intimi tank or hireling to intimi.

[Visty]

Alot of combat can be done in 30 and still keep you safe. So it is possible, even without slaying arrows. If you were assassinate 3, and slaying arrows, thats two saves versus death.

small correction:
there arent 2 saves because slayer arrows dont give a save
its a straight 500dmg on a 20

[MrCow]

Edit; And McCow that is my understanding, but with the caveat that since fighters have no spell point pool that you still have no spell points with the feat making AA mostly useless.

Much appreciated on the information. I neglected to think about that issue.

By the way, that is the first time I recall someone using that misspelling for my name.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Just remember, the Assassin III vorpal works only on a sneak attack (which means you have to be within 30 feet of the critter on a ranged weapon).

Yeah...kinda forgot that. Definately limits it.

I think the OP is hoping to range assinate. Or if they were human, multishot range assassinate through targets with precise shot, which can be built.

Yes.
But hoping to get AA so needs to be an Elf. Might be too many feats. Originally thought of Rgr2. But need a spell casting class in there too..

Might be too many feats needed. Maybe Ftr 1 and forget Bow Str?


Well....wouldn't really come together tiil lvl 20. And that's a long time to invest in an experiment.

[Seikojin]

Yeah...kinda forgot that. Definately limits it.

Yes.
But hoping to get AA so needs to be an Elf. Might be too many feats. Originally thought of Rgr2. But need a spell casting class in there too..

Might be too many feats needed. Maybe Ftr 1 and forget Bow Str?


Well....wouldn't really come together tiil lvl 20. And that's a long time to invest in an experiment.

I don't think youd be able to do AA and Assassin at the same time.

AA with slaying arrows would probably be the better route.

But a rogue decked out to do manyshot and improved precise shot is a decent dps range because of sneak attacks. They wouldn't happen much though. LOL I am sure d8+8d6+bow stuff+damage buffs would make you aggroo quickly, even with sutble backstab maxed out.

[Cyr]

Yes, that is a good build It's all about the dps on ranged attacks.

A) You will under dps other dps builds where it is single target mob situations by a decent amount.

B) You will under dps other dps builds against crit immune mobs by a good amount.

C) . The insta-kill abilities of the build are the least impressive parts of the build as those do not work on epic.

D) You will out dps other archer builds when you can take advantage of your sneak attack.

E) Because of (D) you need to play this type of archer very differently then how I see many play their archers. You are a close combat fighter. You do need to diplo mobs off of you. You should not be moving around constantly ie kiting. If your kiting your dps is mediocre. You need a lot of hit points. If you like building 300 hp builds do not bother with this type of build as it will be horrible for you to play. You can not rely on radiance nearly as much as you could normally for a rogue due to small crit range. In fact, like lower level melee rogues your worth will be immensily greater in groups.

F) Ping pong tactics are valid for this type of build in tandem with other AA of all sorts. It will be a smaller turn around room for the mobs due to your need to be within 30' though...although you can chase a mob in towards your ally and out as they gain agro on you.

All in all it's an interesting build concept, but it takes a lot of skill to pull it off and some nice equipment (unlike most AA builds which can have mostly junk due to their lower risk of death combat style). A more forgiving and easier build to play is the 13 rogue/ 6 ranger/ 1 anything else usually monk or fighter. This alternate build does better dps when you are not in optimal situations for sneak attack damage. It would be a sort of bridge build between the pure damage dealing AA builds of 20 ranger or 18 fighter/1 arcane/1 ranger.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Another problem that I often forget about is having at least a BaB of 16 for four arrows of Manyshot.

That and the small amount of feats most classes get makes it real difficult to make a ranged build that is not heavy in Rgr or Ftr levels.

Add in the fact that one-trick-pony builds are undesireable.

Really limits the variety of ranged builds I would like to play.

The Ranged Rogue really needs Improved Precise shot to shine IMO. More so than many others. Although can get by without Bow Str. Still a lot of feats and the end result is a squishy char who cannot melee effectively.

And any non-Rgr AA needs to be lvl 20 to get Slayer Arrows. That's a long time to wait to get a usable build IMO.
Similar with any non-Rgr/Ftr archer. As you need so many feats to be good at ranged you will be almost capped before you see any real fun with the build.