Stuck between which dwaven X to use =(

[skyjuice]

Currently i have 5 different axe types to use, but got a little trouble deciding which is best against, say Harry.

(keep in mind that which i use will determine the outcome of the 1st GS set)

+4 Holyburst dwarven axe of Pure good (risiaed icey burst)
+5 Holy dwarven axe of pure good (risiaed icey burst)
+5 Metalline dwarven axe of pure good (risiaed icey burst)
+5 Metalline hand axe of pure good (risiaed icey burst)
+3 Holy dwarven axe of greater evil outsider bane

None of them has been ritualised yet.

Thanks

[Vissarion]

I would think that due to his DR scaling above normal, the best combination would be Met of PG + H of GEOB on normal, and then both Met of PGs on anything higher. The H of GEOB will end up being slightly more DPS since it makes up for the 15 DR, but will only offer steeply diminishing returns above normal difficulty.

[skyjuice]

hmm...ok. Will have to look more in depth into this.

Anyone good with number crunching?

[Vissarion]

Okay, well working from the information available on the wiki, we can get all number-crunchy.

Arraetrikos DR Silver+Good
15 Normal/30 Hard/90 Elite

Met of PG DA and Met of PG HA both penetrate DR completely and do average damage of:

Dwarven Axe: 11.5 base average + 3.5 good damage = 15 damage per swing without calculating in things like STR modifier and other damage.

Handaxe: 8.5 base + 3.5 good = 12 damage per swing.

The other weapons don't penetrate DR, so taking the best of the bunch (the Holy of GEOB), here are the numbers:

Holy DA of GEOB: 9.5 base damage + 7 holy damage + 14.5 Bane damage (4 base + 10.5 additional) = 31

Subtract 15 since it doesn't penetrate DR, and you end up with 16, so better than the Met of PG on normal, but not on other difficulties, where DR penetration provides greater return on investment.

The Holy Burst of PG and Holy of PG are worse than the Holy of GEOB, so logic dictates that they would be less desirable alternatives on all difficulties. And since Arraetrikos has 30 cold resist (50ish on elite), Risia rituals would have no effect on the outcome.

So, basically, if you hit on a 2 with buffs, your sets would be best off as:

Normal: Holy DA of GEOB/Met DA of PG
Hard/Elite: Met DA of PG/Met HA of PG

Edit: Messed up the average damage from the greater bane effect. Now corrected to show 3d6 rather than 4d6. :P

[skyjuice]

wow..very nice and informative, thank you!

With those sets in mind, i will force rit them, then work on a general purpose GS set..probably 2 x Lighting one, resources permitting.

[Crann]

The base damage is what you subtract the DR from....not the total damage. The damage from the holy/good/bane aspect of the weapon is uneffected by DR.

[skyjuice]

The base damage is what you subtract the DR from....not the total damage. The damage from the holy/good/bane aspect of the weapon is uneffected by DR.

How does this change anything? So i looked a little closer:

Metalline will allow 1d10+5,1d6 good. (excluding str mods and damage enhancers)

Bane 1d10+7 (lose out here),2d6 holy, 3d6 bane (excluding all else)
Met Hand X will allow 1d6+5,1d6 good (excluding all else)

hmm, what does this tell me?

[Vissarion]

The base damage is what you subtract the DR from....not the total damage. The damage from the holy/good/bane aspect of the weapon is uneffected by DR.

Yes, but assuming that the character swinging the weapons adds damage from strength and other sources, those will be affected by the DR as well. If we add 7-10 damage per swing from strength (I'm assuming not a mistaken guess, considering we're talking about Dwarven axes, which aren't finessable), then the difference between weapons certainly works out as I have listed.

Met of PG Dwarven Axe = 11.5 base (1d12+5) + 7 (strength 24) + 3.5 (1d6 good) = 22

Holy DA of GEOB = 9.5 base (1d12+3) + 7 (strength 24) + 7 (2d6 holy) + 14.5 (4 + 10.5 GEOB) = 38

In the latter example, there is 16.5 average base damage from weapon and strength, making the 15 DR very relevant. It's still better by 1 on normal than the Met of PG, but if we assume more reasonable figures (higher strength, bard song, class-based damage increases, race-based damage increases), then it will also still have the same effect on hard and elite of making the Met of PG more desirable from the DPS standpoint.

So, in the case of 10 strength, there's a chance that the weapon effects could change the overall calculations, but I doubt the OP has a 10 strength.

[Crann]

Holy DA of GEOB: 9.5 base damage + 7 holy damage + 14.5 Bane damage (4 base + 10.5 additional) = 31

Subtract 15 since it doesn't penetrate DR, and you end up with 16, so better than the Met of PG on normal, but not on other difficulties, where DR penetration provides greater return on investment.

The example you listed subtracts 15 from the total amount of the damage. Your total amount of damage in you example includes the holy/bane damage. You would only subtract the DR from the base damage....not the holy/bane effect damage. Also the bane damage is still not correct. The extra +4 is added on to the base damage, not the bane damage.

An analysis of the damage might look more like this:

9.5 base damage + 4 bane+ 6 strength + 5 buff + 3 enhancements = 27.5 weapon damage - 15 DR = 12.5 weapon damage + 7 holy + 10.5 Bane = 30 damage total

OP....use the Metalline/Silver of good/holy weapons. The GLOB of equal pluses will be slightly more dps on normal only.


Just to clear things up about the Greater Bane weapons, they make your weapon 4 pluses higher versus the appropriate target. A +1 becomes a +5 and a +5 becomes a +9 for to hit and damage purposes.
then take that 12.5 per swing, and add to it the 10.5 for bane and the 7 for holy, getting 30 per swing.


Damage Reduction is very confusing for people starting out. I think it is much easier to think of it in terms of affecting the damage done by the weapon itself, as opposed to affecting the various extra damages the weapon produces, such as good, holy, vicious, elemental etc.

[Vissarion]

The example you listed subtracts 15 from the total amount of the damage. Your total amount of damage in you example includes the holy/bane damage. You would only subtract the DR from the base damage....not the holy/bane effect damage. Also the bane damage is still not correct. The extra +4 is added on to the base damage, not the bane damage.

An analysis of the damage might look more like this:

9.5 base damage + 4 bane+ 6 strength + 5 buff + 3 enhancements = 27.5 weapon damage - 15 DR = 12.5 weapon damage + 7 holy + 10.5 Bane = 30 damage total

Yes, I understand that. It was really just shorthand, operating under the assumption that there would be other things affected by DR that would be reduced, making the damage difference the key. If there were no outside modifiers, then yes, it would be mathematically inaccurate, but since that is not going to be the case, I figured the shorthand was adequate. Guess I should have been clearer, though.

Counting the +4 under the bane effect rather than base damage was definitely a mistake, though. I always mix that one up, annoyingly.

Those caveats notwithstanding, the same conclusion still holds.

[skyjuice]

Met of PG Dwarven Axe = 11.5 base (1d12+5) + 7 (str mod) + 3.5 (1d6 good) = average 22

Holy DA of GEOB = 9.5 base (1d12+3) + 7 (str mod) -15 =1.5 + 7 (2d6 holy) + 14.5 (4 + 10.5 GEOB) = average 23

9.5 base damage + 4 bane + 7 (str mod) - 15 DR = 5.5 + 7 holy + 10.5 Bane = average 23

OP....use the Metalline/Silver of good/holy weapons. The GLOB of equal pluses will be slightly more dps on normal only.


Just to clear things up about the Greater Bane weapons, they make your weapon 4 pluses higher versus the appropriate target. A +1 becomes a +5 and a +5 becomes a +9 for to hit and damage purposes.

Edited out here and there to make things clearer to myself (lol)

The calculations above didn't factor in enhancements. I would like to know if those (levels in dwarven axe damage..FE damage..etc) are calculated as normal base damage (hence getting resisted) or...?

[Crann]

The extra damage from enhancements is affected by DR. I had them listed as such in my example, but you edited them out of the equation.

[zed1]

You'll probably get good use out of all 5 weapons. The met/pg weapons will be your harry beaters, the GEOB will be nice against lesser demons and devils, and the other two will be your "standard set."