Bastard Sword Change

[Chai]

Khopesh wasn't made by the book though. IIRC the Khopesh in the book is actually 19-20/x2 as well, but it has an automatic trip % if I recall which is why they made it x3 instead of the book x2.

So I can see them going against the strictly book sense for things as well.

Correct. This is why khopesh is the ONLY weapon sans named exceptions that is BOTH more than x2 AND more than just a 20 threat. All other weapons that are more in one category are contained on the other category for balance reasons. When I hear people say it needs to stay that way because it takes a feat to invest in it, I point out that there are plenty of other fail weapons that are "exotic" (LOL) and require a feat.

ie: x2 19-20. x2 18-20. or x3 20 only, or x4 20 only.

[Chai]

But if you "knock the Khopesh from the top of the tree", some other weapon will then become the top one. From what I can gather just from hearing about other MMO's, they all tend to suffer from top end uniformity.

Its a MUCH more honest debate which weapon to use if you exclude khopesh from the discussion. There would be no literal clear cut choice that always wins in all case scenarios involving slashing, which is the case now with khopesh. Choosing from all weapons sans khopesh, regardless of damage type, its purely situational. The only time khopesh loses is on 100% fort mobs, (epic pirate zombies lol), and even then it doesnt lose by much, or mobs that need pierce or blunt to bypass DR. There are only really a few of these in each category. The 2 pierce scenarios I can think of, Rakshashas and spiders, can both be vorped sans epic or named, and the major blunt option, skellys, mummies, and the like are all no crit undead anyhow, and can be disrupted, unless in epics, abbot, or a few other specific situations where deathward applies.

Taking away khopesh would be entertaining to read all the min maxer threads on what the new best weapon type is. Right now its pretty clear cut.

While this is all fine and dandy, the real disparity of late is there is no weapon to compare to the Epic SOS. When the gap between the best weapon in the game and the second best weapon in the game is larger than the gap between the second best weapon and the 25th best weapon, theres an issue that needs to be resolved.

[Daehawk]

While this thread could be seen as a 'zomg nerf khopesh' thread. That is not my goal. I see balancing in both it's lights. You can either "Nerf the Strong" and bring everything to the same level. Khopesh as a 19-20/x3 is fine. That's what the developers wanted it to be. The other way is to bring a weaker component up onto the level of the other. In this situation it seems most fit. If you do this too much though everything will become far too powerful and it would lose it's meaning though.

As Newtons_Apple's said a nice number crunch for it with more effects like "burst/smiting/pally smiting, enfeebling standpoint." If the d10 18-20/x2 would then be superior to d8 19-20/x3.

If Bastard Sword was changed from 19-20/x2 to 19-20/x3 it's clearly that then it would be the stronger contender. d10 19-20/x3 vs d8 19-20/x3. But with it going to d10 18-20/x2 vs d8 19-20/x3 I think that's a little more balanced between the two exotic weapons and would give more of a choice between the two.

A few other notes in this thread people were talking about 'Zomg you gotta be khopeshes or you're sub-par" well that is the point of this thread to try to balance Bastard Sword in a TWF sense up to around the level where there isn't a massive gap between Bastard Sword vs Khopesh for exotic weapon choices. This would create more customization to the players to allow a wider branch of accepted weapons.

I hope that clears things up a little more, if not here it is in bullet points:

• This is not a Nerf Khopesh Thread.
• This is a balancing of Exotic Melee Weapon Bastard Sword thread.
• You don't have to nerf something to balance.
• d10 18-20/x2 vs d8 19-20/x3 - Need someone to number crunch damage over time.
• This is about TWF not S&B or Single-Wielding.

Discuss.

[Hjarki]

The changes made to using a single Bastard Sword with either no off-hand weapon or a shield have nothing to do with this thread. This is about TWF, not S&B.

The OP brought the issue of the Update 5 changes into the discussion, not me.

The fact is that the devs have already announced the details of how they're balancing Bastard Sword/Dwarven Axe, and these changes do balance these weapons against Khopesh. Keep in mind that the first test of "balance" is whether one option is strictly better than another in almost any conceivable circumstance.

The dev's changes meet this test. The OP's changes do not.

[Syrophir]

I wouldn't mind if they made Khopesh more like what the book says.
I think that x3 crit multiper is what makes Khopesh too common. It's almost rare to see something else, and in most of these cases they wield something else only because they want something else even if it costs them some DPS.
I liked Khopesh when the game was still new and you could see more variety, but when we got more levels (14+) Khopeshes became kinda the obvious choice especially for TWF.
Maybe if pesh was just x2 without anything like that "trip thing" we would see nothing but Dwarven Axes again..
If they could modify Khopesh to be more like what the book says without that +1 to the crit multiper then maybe.

I would still prefer more content rather than just a quick fix to this issue.

[galahad2002]

Why not make these weapons closer to the pnp. Kopesh has a % trip chance for every blow. I love tripping monsters that would help the over all damage anyway. And the Bastard should be able to switch between 1 & two handed. I know it would be nice to invest in one really amazing bastard sword then one really great kopesh and one great sword for example. I need a little more AC grab that shield.....I want a little more damage loose the shield and grab the sword 2 handed.

There are many many pnp rules and items they can bring in and make all the difference. Elven blade is a great one that I think will beat the Kopesh, and that one they can take right from pnp 1d8 18-20/x2.

[supp3nhuhn]

Since you can carry 3 dozen swords with you there is pretty much no advantage in being able to both dual wield and s&b with a particular one of those.

That being said i think with the added glancing blows bastard swords did receive a very nice boost.

[galahad2002]

I realize you can carry plenty of different weapons, but for example, it can take a long time to make a tier 3 weapon. To be able to use it in two different situations would be huge. Carry fewer weapons and be cheaper in the long run for those of us f2p that maybe get 5 hours a week of questing.

[Robai]

Here
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=238146
I gave average damage formula and made some comparisons (eg., Khopesh vs Bastard Sword).

Attack formula (without additional bonuses):
Attack = d20 + BAB + Strength_mod + Size_mod
(this is a random variable because d20 is random)

Let's denote
R = Enemy_AC - (BAB + Strength_mod + Size_mod)
(this is not random variable for a given monster, I call it "needed Roll")

For actual damage you do several rolls (attack roll, damage roll, attack roll to confirm critical, etc.), i.e. your damage is a random variable, but it is possible to calculate the exact average value of that random variable.

Since that value depends on R (you meet different monsters) you can draw a graph - that is what I did.

1)
Bastard Sword wins here for absolutely all R (in Plain case (i.e. with no bonuses, even Strength=10 here)):
Khopesh (red) and Bastard Sword (blue)
(high BAB means low R, high enemy AC means high R)

2)
If your weapons has only +5 Enhancement bonus:
Khopesh (red) and Bastard Sword (blue)
(no big difference, Bastard Sword is slightly better)

3)
If your weapon has +5 Enhancement bonus, you have Power Critical, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats then
Khopesh (red) and Bastard Sword (blue)
(no big difference, Khopesh is slightly better)

4)
If your weapon has +5 Enhancement bonus and Seeker +10, you have Power Critical, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats then
Khopesh (red) and Bastard Sword (blue)
(now Khopesh is really better)

Obviously I should have taken Strength 20 instead of 10, but it was the first calculations, so I left it as it is.

If you want me to make some specific calculations then tell me:
- your weapon
- your weapon's enhancements
- your Strength
- your feats
- your enhancements
And I will draw the graph of average damage in various situations, i.e. for various R (I can compare several weapons on the same graph).

These calculations does not include (I don't have the formula for that yet):

• Glancing blows (that gives bonus to Bastard Sword against Khopesh since Update 5)
• Grazing Hits (that gives bonus to Bastard Sword against Khopesh)
• Damage Reduction
• Fortification (that gives bonus to Bastard Sword against Khopesh)
• Energy Resistance

But I can include many effects (i.e. the formula is ready for that) like:
- elemental, alignment, bane, sneak attack damage,
- even elemental burst damage, alignment burst damage,
- all feats or enhancements

[Igrovin]

I for one am very confused on one point.

Khopesh isn't in any book that I see and i see many of them.

However there is a ghost spike weapon that is 19-20/x3 but its a double weapon. (Other side has only the 19-20/x2)

[Montegue]

I for one am very confused on one point.

Khopesh isn't in any book that I see and i see many of them.

However there is a ghost spike weapon that is 19-20/x3 but its a double weapon. (Other side has only the 19-20/x2)

It's very much old school.

Also, in reality, a near-useless weapon in comparison to a proper sword. It's as silly (if not more silly) then a Klingon bat'leth. And before anyone asks, I'm actually a swordsman professionally. I teach everything from the rapier to the long sword (which is the real name for a bastard sword) to the arming sword (which is what D&D refers to as a long sword). To see the Khopesh dominate the DDO weapon hierarchy is pretty amusing.

[galahad2002]

The Kopesh is in PNP it just has a % to trip instead of the x3 multiplier. Which in this game a tripped enemy would be better then a X3 crit IMO.

[Hutoth]

Hmm, I can see where you are coming from but the only change they should make to bastard swords is the two handed rule that is in the player's handbook.

If ddo is going to stick strickly to the books with the weapons (yes, some weapons are more powerful than others for a reason. They are made differently. The khopesh is heavier blade end and exotically shaped giving it a horrible balance for untrained hands. [granted khopeshes look nothing like what they do in the game]) Bastard swords are treated as martial weapons (not exotic) if a character uses them with two hands. True they don't do the damage other two handed weapons do for being two handed, but the fact it is interchangable with one hand (and the fact bastard swords are one of the few weapons in the game that actually look decent) is why the bastard is a balanced and plausible weapon to use in pnp.

So the only real fix they can do to a bastard sword is make it two handed if you don't possess the exotic weapon feat.

Besides, khopeshes pretty much make it easy to point out the twf power gamers with no style or originality.

This made me wonder whether you could have it so Bastard sword does not require exotic if you have Oversize TWF...

[k1ngp1n]

I'd personally like to see a crunch of the numbers (over time) comparing bastard swords to khopesh with the bastard sword being set to d10, 18-20, x2. I suspect it may be over-powering, especially from a burst/smiting/pally smiting, enfeebling standpoint. But since I'm no good at number crunching, I'm officially asking the community to do it for me.

Lightning Strike, Bloodstone, Improved Crit. Left hand column is damage bonus. Doesn't include certain class abilities (Kensai damage with Khop would be superior, Pally would be better with B.Sword). I do have that chart as well, but I don't really feel like copying it over .

This is from a chart I maintain on every major weapon type for every fighting style.

DOES NOT INCLUDE GLANCING BLOWS. If glancing blows work as they do currently, Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes should now be superior damage weapons in a S&B configuration. I have yet to find the actual glancing blow formula so I can't run it through my spreadsheet (which currently includes all major weapons for all major styles for all fortification levels.)

Average damage per swing over time (missing on a 1.)

Bonus   Khop.   B.Sword B.Sword Proposed
30	100.00%	93.34%	100.34%
35	100.00%	92.71%	99.74%
40	100.00%	92.17%	99.23%
45	100.00%	91.71%	98.79%
50	100.00%	91.30%	98.40%
55	100.00%	90.94%	98.06%
60	100.00%	90.62%	97.75%
65	100.00%	90.33%	97.48%
70	100.00%	90.07%	97.24%
75	100.00%	89.84%	97.01%
80	100.00%	89.63%	96.81%

1	41.575	42	44.75
2	42.925	43.15	46
3	44.275	44.3	47.25
4	45.625	45.45	48.5
5	46.975	46.6	49.75
6	48.325	47.75	51
7	49.675	48.9	52.25
8	51.025	50.05	53.5
9	52.375	51.2	54.75
10	53.725	52.35	56
11	55.075	53.5	57.25
12	56.425	54.65	58.5
13	57.775	55.8	59.75
14	59.125	56.95	61
15	60.475	58.1	62.25
16	61.825	59.25	63.5
17	63.175	60.4	64.75
18	64.525	61.55	66
19	65.875	62.7	67.25
20	67.225	63.85	68.5
21	68.575	65	69.75
22	69.925	66.15	71
23	71.275	67.3	72.25
24	72.625	68.45	73.5
25	73.975	69.6	74.75
26	75.325	70.75	76
27	76.675	71.9	77.25
28	78.025	73.05	78.5
29	79.375	74.2	79.75
30	80.725	75.35	81
31	82.075	76.5	82.25
32	83.425	77.65	83.5
33	84.775	78.8	84.75
34	86.125	79.95	86
35	87.475	81.1	87.25
36	88.825	82.25	88.5
37	90.175	83.4	89.75
38	91.525	84.55	91
39	92.875	85.7	92.25
40	94.225	86.85	93.5
41	95.575	88	94.75
42	96.925	89.15	96
43	98.275	90.3	97.25
44	99.625	91.45	98.5
45	100.975	92.6	99.75
46	102.325	93.75	101
47	103.675	94.9	102.25
48	105.025	96.05	103.5
49	106.375	97.2	104.75
50	107.725	98.35	106
51	109.075	99.5	107.25
52	110.425	100.65	108.5
53	111.775	101.8	109.75
54	113.125	102.95	111
55	114.475	104.1	112.25
56	115.825	105.25	113.5
57	117.175	106.4	114.75
58	118.525	107.55	116
59	119.875	108.7	117.25
60	121.225	109.85	118.5
61	122.575	111	119.75
62	123.925	112.15	121
63	125.275	113.3	122.25
64	126.625	114.45	123.5
65	127.975	115.6	124.75
66	129.325	116.75	126
67	130.675	117.9	127.25
68	132.025	119.05	128.5
69	133.375	120.2	129.75
70	134.725	121.35	131
71	136.075	122.5	132.25
72	137.425	123.65	133.5
73	138.775	124.8	134.75
74	140.125	125.95	136
75	141.475	127.1	137.25
76	142.825	128.25	138.5
77	144.175	129.4	139.75
78	145.525	130.55	141
79	146.875	131.7	142.25
80	148.225	132.85	143.5

[Wizard_Zero]

So as much as I try to convince myself that BS can compete with a Khopesh, it seems like there is no way. Did a test of +2 BS and +2 Khopesh with as Bloodstone equipped at lvl 9 and this is what I got:

Khopesh: 49.81 crit average
BS: 38.66 crit average

And that is just at level 9, without any burst effects. I like BS, mostly because they look cooler, have glancing blows and really cheap on the AH, but the numbers don't justify going BS over Khopesh.

[theb]

Bastard swords are bigger. They should therefore have more reach. That would be easy to implement (probably) and give them a unique advantage over khopeshes, without either nerfing a weapon type or unbalancing the game by promoting a different weapon as best dps.

[h4x0r1f1c]

So as much as I try to convince myself that BS can compete with a Khopesh, it seems like there is no way. Did a test of +2 BS and +2 Khopesh with as Bloodstone equipped at lvl 9 and this is what I got:

Khopesh: 49.81 crit average
BS: 38.66 crit average

And that is just at level 9, without any burst effects. I like BS, mostly because they look cooler, have glancing blows and really cheap on the AH, but the numbers don't justify going BS over Khopesh.

Try comparing Green Steel Khopesh to Green Steel Bastard Sword.