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  1. #1
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    Default Barbarian capstone seems to give a hidden haste boost

    So I've been testing some barbarian things. Recently, I was testing glancing blows with and without each tier of frenzied berserker as well as the barbarian might. Each video was about 10 minutes long, but I found that I got a bit more data from the video with barbarian capstone than the others. I haven't really been looking into attack speeds, because my setup isn't really built for it, but this looked to be worth looking into. The videos were recorded at 5 frames per second, although between 1/3 and 1/2 of the frames are just repeated frames. The same character was used, a level 20 human pure barbarian. The only difference between the tests were running to the barbarian trainer, getting another enhancement, then running back out to Ataraxia to whack on scrags. I was using a two-handed weapon. I did not twitch, but just did auto-attack. I didn't use any buffs like rage or haste.

    For frenzied berserker 3 but without the barbarian capstone, it took a total of 623.6 seconds to get through 892 attacks. This translates to an attacks per minute of 85.8 seconds. The measurement error, assuming that there may have been a repeated frame at both ends (i.e. at both start and end), is 0.4 seconds each, which means a measurement error of about 0.6 seconds total. Out of over 600 seconds, this translates to less than 0.1% error (note: this doesn't mean that the attack rate is always like this, since your attacks per minute will depend on graphics settings, client loading, server traffic, etc., but just that it wasn't an issue here).

    For frenzied berserker 3 with the barbarian capstone, it took a total of 614.0 seconds to get through 964 attacks. This translates to an attacks per minute of about 94.2. I didn't take any other enhancements between not having the capstone and getting the capstone.

    This means that the barbarian capstone currently seems to give about a 9-10% attack speed increase (from 85.8 to 94.2 attacks per minute).

    On suggestion from Shade, I recorded a video without and without the capstone. The video consists of me spending three minutes swinging at air next to the trainer, then getting the barbarian capstone enhancement, then swinging at air for another three minutes. It is one continuous video so there shouldn't be issues with (for example) changing the video settings in between tests or something. The video was captured at 20 frames per second, although at first glance it seems like this just means more repeated frames. You can see the video here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_Yz8dWo5ag

    In the video, without the capstone, it took a total of 183 seconds (from frame 81 to frame 3741) to do 260 attacks. This is 85.2 attacks per minute. With the capstone, it took a total of 187.1 seconds (from frame 4195 to 7937) to do 292 attacks, or 93.6 attacks per minute. The testing results for both were slightly lower (which may reflect increased graphics demand since I upped the video capture to 20 frames per second instead of 10 frames per second) but the ratio is still the same, about a 9-10% attack speed increase.

    I do not know if this trend holds up for TWF or unarmed, but people who are considering barb with splash might want to consider this hidden effect that barbarian might seems to give. I also don't know how this may affect twitching, since I didn't bother trying to twitch because mine isn't very consistent and would just screw up any testing results.
    Last edited by Vanshilar; 05-01-2010 at 05:21 PM.

  2. #2
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    Bump, and so with all those dps calculations ect... are pure Barbs now undoubtably on top?

  3. #3
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Very interesting ......
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  4. #4
    Community Member kamimitsu's Avatar
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    Hrmmm... maybe I should do some testing to see if the rogue capstone has a hidden effect of making rogues die 9-10% faster.
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  5. #5
    Community Member ajspjs's Avatar
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    I remembered reading something about attack speed so I did some digging...
    Quote Originally Posted by DDO Wiki
    It determines player attack speed. Players receive progressively larger attack speed bonuses at 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20 BAB.
    With Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins and Rangers getting up to 20 BAB.

    Then I realized you are already Lv.20.
    ...Maybe there's another hidden BAB speed increase?

  6. #6
    Founder stazer's Avatar
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    if this is fact...I would hope there is a "hidden" effect to the fighter capstone...which is already subject to the effects of diminished returns...
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  7. #7
    Community Member hydra_ex's Avatar
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    Very interesting. One of my guildies and I were having an argument for the longest time; that greataxes and greatswords attacked at the same speed. So, we compared weapon speeds, me on my 20 ranger, him on his 20 barbarian, me with a +1 greatsword, him with his MinII greataxe. He swung faster. Using the greatsword, he still swung faster.

    So, we've been wondering what the cause is. Now it looks like you've found it for us.
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  8. #8
    Community Member mediocresurgeon's Avatar
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    Very interesting observation.

    Here's a hypothetical for you (and any number-crunching readers): If a Madstoned barbarian has 114 attacks per minute after taking the capstone, does this +10% increased attack speed from taking the capstone stack with Madstone?

    If it does, many 18Barb/2XXXX splashes will have to be reconsidered.

    If it does not, is the attack speed increase relevant at any specific points in gameplay?

    Also, does this attack speed increase function with TWF, or just THF?
    Last edited by mediocresurgeon; 05-01-2010 at 11:15 PM.

    The nerfing will continue until morale improves!

  9. #9
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Ranger vs Barb Attack speeds...

    I would guess the Barb has THF ITHF GTHF, and the Ranger doesnt. Does'nt THF ITHF and GTHF give you "more attack chains"? It would be interesting to see a Capstone (20) Fighter vs a Capstone Barb. I would be really curious at that.

  10. #10
    Community Member mediocresurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Does'nt THF ITHF and GTHF give you "more attack chains"?
    No. THF/ITHF/GTHF give you additional glancing blows in your attack chain.

    The nerfing will continue until morale improves!

  11. #11
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    So is anyone doing any of the other tests? I don't have a 20 barb, but would be very interested to see what it stacked with, if it worked with twf, unarmed, or even one weapon fighting with a shield (Just to see).

  12. #12
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    nice find. but expect turbine to come with the nerf bat when they read this
    woundweaver 20 cl woundcleaver 20 barb woundbleeder 17 barb woundreaver 20 ftr woundheal 18 cl
    woundedsoul 20 fvs woundedfist 20 monk woundshadow 20 fvs woundtoaster 20 wiz woundtusk 15 monk

  13. #13
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    They probably know about it.... I reeeeally doubt they could "accidently" program in a 10% attack speed boost for 1 enhancement that otherwise has nothing to do with it. They have plenty of hidden boosts and negatives in other stuff that they just never bother to talk about. I'm more curious when they put it in though.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progen View Post
    They probably know about it.... I reeeeally doubt they could "accidently" program in a 10% attack speed boost for 1 enhancement that otherwise has nothing to do with it. They have plenty of hidden boosts and negatives in other stuff that they just never bother to talk about. I'm more curious when they put it in though.
    dunno, but they do alot of things by "accident". like when rangers were complaining about attack speed, so they nerfed everyone else to make rangers seem faster in attacks. or like the nerf to summoning. now fvs cant sommon a hezrou AND a scorrow. pale masters can summon, and summon skellies as well. these "accidents" happen on a frequent basis, and of course they dont tell us. it would mean they would have already had to answer to their boss why things are half tested and released already.

    just wait. give it 3 months, and i bet it wont be the same. turbine is the king of nerfs. doesnt take long to figure that out. its why i almost hate seeing good finds on the forums. they get changed quickly and quietly, with no warning. good luck, though! a mistake isnt a mistake if you dont have to admit it
    woundweaver 20 cl woundcleaver 20 barb woundbleeder 17 barb woundreaver 20 ftr woundheal 18 cl
    woundedsoul 20 fvs woundedfist 20 monk woundshadow 20 fvs woundtoaster 20 wiz woundtusk 15 monk

  15. #15
    Community Member testing1234's Avatar
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    nice find

    if this is not a bugg it means it was intended as a "hidden effect" or that the capstone has been updated either of these seems to me to imply other capstones might have hidden boosts also.

  16. #16
    Community Member Havenor's Avatar
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    I notice that when I am hit by ray of enfeeblement my attack speed bogs down pretty drastically. Haven't tested anything, but maybe it has to do with the extra strength or something?

  17. #17
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havenor View Post
    I notice that when I am hit by ray of enfeeblement my attack speed bogs down pretty drastically. Haven't tested anything, but maybe it has to do with the extra strength or something?
    Yea when you hit medium or heavy load, your attack speed lowers. So it could be that the capstone's +2 str brings him out of medium load into light.. Tho it's extremely unlikely for any reasonable good str barb to ever be in medium load.. My barb can carry something ridiculous like 2 million pounds of equipment unraged.

    Allot of factors effect swing speed, something as little a bit of lag could explain it really.. It seems legit but I dunno, it's something significant enough that people would of noticed it..

    Regardless, if this helps Turbine pay some attention to the Barbarian class, all the better. If they go to fix/nerf this ,they may even notice the capstone being the only one left bugged and maybe even fix it. (Still doesn't increase glancing blow dmg, and whatever bonus it may provide to proc rate seems either non-existant or so low its worthless)

  18. #18
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    Hmm I guess in theory it's possible that it's a load issue (i.e. carrying too much junk in inventory). However, my barbarian has a str of 35 (without capstone) and 37 (with capstone). With the capstone, with my current amount of junk in inventory, the load reads as 359.3 / 20760.0 lb load: light.

    Even taking off all my str gear, bringing my str down to 28, the load reads as 359.3 / 6000.0 lb load: light. Doing a really quick test on this setup (i.e. only 10 attack rounds or 40 total attacks) I finish in 25.13 seconds, for an attacks/min of 95.5. The time might be slightly faster than the other tests because I wasn't recording this one, just using my cell phone's stopwatch to time it, and I was in Ataraxia spa rather than a larger and more crowded area. Note that this is with the capstone.

    So I suppose I can do another test with minimal str in 3 days (when the enhancement timer wears off), but I don't think it'll affect anything.

    I suppose it's possible that the developers will remove this "feature" in a future update (in which case, apologies to barbarians everywhere), on the other hand, testing is intended to reveal what's actually in the system rather than what everyone thinks is in the system, and these are the testing results. Obviously (unless this attack speed increase doesn't stack with other modifiers), this attack speed increase gives more DPS than increasing the glancing blow damage or increasing the glancing blow proc rate. Unless DPS calculators previously accounted for this, it may be one of the reasons why barbarians outperform whatever the calculators said they would.

  19. #19
    Community Member vVAnjilaVv's Avatar
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    Usually Barbarians have the highest STR of any class if I am not mistaken...shouldn't overall STR have some kind of bearing on how fast you swing ur weapon?

  20. #20
    Community Member Nick_RC's Avatar
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    Very interesting.

    My barb was a splash and 2wf before I started TRing him. My question is how in the hell did the entire purist barb population miss this for so long? That's the only thing that makes me query it.

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