Barbarian capstone seems to give a hidden haste boost

[sephiroth1084]

But I think you're missing the point. If the above stated effect exists you must remember that ALL comparisons between classes are taken based on the current state of the game, which means that the barb's DPS already depends on the supposed "alacrity".

Now, IMO going 20 barbarian is more worth it cause of the improved rage, the capstone (as described) is just an additional "little bonus".

How were we calculating comparisons based upon something no one was even aware of until just a little while ago? It certainly wasn't be looking at a barbarian's swings/min rate as compared to other characters, as everyone assumed that that would be the same as any 20th level pure BAB character with a similar weapon. How does the DPS depend on this hitherto unknown?

[sephiroth1084]

My initial points made in this thread with reference to this issue most closely resemble what sephiroth wrote in that above quote, except he said it much better than I did.

I do what I can.

[Nick_RC]

Yawn.

These Ftr/Barb DPS comparisons are silly.

They both do sick dps. The fact that both sides arguments hold weight is testament too relative parity.

Why I will play a barb over a ftr is for the following reasons.

1. Fighters lose alot more when they switch weapon types. Yeah Epic SoS match ups are close but **** what happens when necro goes epic. Ur still gonna stay Greatsword Specced most likely cos that will keep you near optimum for the majority of raids...but u gonna be alot weaker than a barb who switches to a maul. That was the biggest thing for me - u gotta bypass weapon type DR and that weapon type aint slash then g'night. Gianthold with rakshasas, razorkats, skellies/gatekeepers. Using weighted weapons in epic etc etc the list goes on. For me (and its my opinion)Its pretty easy to say over the whole game barbs do more dps IMO.

2. I enjoy duoing/shortmanning the dificult raids of that time frame. Barbs have alot longer sustainable DPS than a ftr. Something very important in these sort of attempts. Not to mention that if a fighter has really gone all out dps there is no chance his defenses will be that of a barb.

3. Speed. For static boss fights fighters hold up but when u got to move, and move fast, give me my haste boosted barb. Il go Ali styles all day long backpeddling sideflipping etc with sprint boost up.

I just feel Barbs are better prepared for every situation than a fighter.

The only ONLY thing that makes me consider fighter as possibly being more optimal DPS across the board is access to PL feats. Divine favor for 6 min is nice. Completionist they can fit. Rog - check. They can fit those in - course its alot of grind but what isnt in DDO now.

Some thoughts.

N

[Cetus]

You are 100% correct- but for the player whose fighter isnt their main or first priority in terms of gear.

Those situations where you need to use a blunt weapon, yea barbs will out dps the fighter- but again, thats a minority of sitations. Sally, harry, reaver, dragon, dq the whole nine yards are still the bulk of which fighters do just fine in.

In terms of defense, If you really work at it- my fighter is infinitely times more survivable than a barb because, first I have just as many hp if not more than 90% of barbs (select few that top me exist) and I have the UMD for heal scrolls.

Fighters are much more gear dependant than barbs to make them effective in end game content.

Also, barbs run into a dead end with their dps being GAME maxed.

Ill explain: Currently, dwarves get skunked when wielding a weapon that is not an axe, because axe damage doesnt apply to the Epic SoS. Warforged get the edge here. But seeker 10 only exists on the armor- which warforged cant wear. So, racial perks and the marilith chain coupled with the Epic SoS get torn. Thats just an example of end game dps gear split.

As a fighter I can take advantage of everything currently implemented that adds damage, even the +1 damage from LOTD ill be able to incorporate.

Also, I see tons of barbs come into epic wiz king and miss with their mauls, while I am hitting him on a 2 with a maul that im not specced for, thereby out dpsing the barb anyway.

It goes either way.

[Kaeldur]

How were we calculating comparisons based upon something no one was even aware of until just a little while ago? It certainly wasn't be looking at a barbarian's swings/min rate as compared to other characters, as everyone assumed that that would be the same as any 20th level pure BAB character with a similar weapon. How does the DPS depend on this hitherto unknown?

What I mean is the following: consider this thread never existed. Until now nobody had stated any supposed alacrity bonus, right? So all existing DPS benchmarks have been done without any knowledge of this... This means everyone was already taking into account the attack speed increase without knowing about it. If you nerf that, all existing benchmarks will have to be done again and most probably will show the loss in DPS...

My point is exactly that: the comparisons, even though nobody knew about this capstone effect, already accounted for it.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

Haste boost increases damage output by flat 30%.

Damage boost increases damage output by 5damage/swing.

A high end melee will have a damage output of in excess of 100damage/swing on average.

30% of 100 is 30.

30 is way bigger than 5.

30 - 5 is 25, 25 is greater than the average of 6d6.

Think about it
...

Whoooooooooosh

[Kyrn]

Also, barbs run into a dead end with their dps being GAME maxed.

Ill explain: Currently, dwarves get skunked when wielding a weapon that is not an axe, because axe damage doesnt apply to the Epic SoS. Warforged get the edge here. But seeker 10 only exists on the armor- which warforged cant wear. So, racial perks and the marilith chain coupled with the Epic SoS get torn. Thats just an example of end game dps gear split.

As a fighter I can take advantage of everything currently implemented that adds damage, even the +1 damage from LOTD ill be able to incorporate.

Also, I see tons of barbs come into epic wiz king and miss with their mauls, while I am hitting him on a 2 with a maul that im not specced for, thereby out dpsing the barb anyway.

It goes either way.

I do not understand your explanation. Are you claiming that all Barbarians are either Dwarves or Warforged? Because I don't see how a Dwarf or Warforged Fighter wouldn't have the same issues.

[Monkey_Archer]

And the numbers are in....

Using twitch attack speed (~126 base, ~136 with capstones) and maximum hasteboost efficiency for short term fights (best case scenario for the fighter)
Using typical "max" buffs (tod sets, madstone, rage, yugo pot, tharnes)

Min 2 Greataxe:
FB: 481.2 dps (*452.1)
Archon: 445.3 dps
Kensai: 436.9 dps

Epic SOS:
Kensai: 644.1 dps
Archon: 643.5 dps
FB: 640.1 dps (*598.0)

(* shows dps if the barb capstone was changed to add 5 extra damage per glancing blow and +10% glancing blow proc rate instead of 10% alacrity)

[sephiroth1084]

What I mean is the following: consider this thread never existed. Until now nobody had stated any supposed alacrity bonus, right? So all existing DPS benchmarks have been done without any knowledge of this... This means everyone was already taking into account the attack speed increase without knowing about it. If you nerf that, all existing benchmarks will have to be done again and most probably will show the loss in DPS...

My point is exactly that: the comparisons, even though nobody knew about this capstone effect, already accounted for it.

And my point was: Were we doing calculations based on an attack speed determined by measuring the swing rate of a barbarian with the capstone, manually counted, and multiplied by based damage, or the swing rate of a character with 20 BAB, determined manually, and multiplied by base damage? And for all we know, this may be a new addition.

Obviously, there was a set numeric value being used to calculate all 20 BAB characters' swing speed, or we would have noticed this much sooner, which means that no, we weren't including this without realizing it in our comparisons. Either whoever was doing DPS calculations had used the swing speed of a character without the barbarian capstone, or one with, and then had applied that value to all other characters not knowing the difference. If it was with the capstone, then we had been assuming a 10% increase in swing speed for everyone, which is the same, in this case, as assuming it for no one.

And if you want to try to make a claim that it wasn't the hard numbers, but the subjectively observed kill-time of a barbarian vs. another character, I'll just say that unless you're sitting there using a stopwatch and counting swings, no one will notice the difference in kill-time.

[sephiroth1084]

Also, I see tons of barbs come into epic wiz king and miss with their mauls, while I am hitting him on a 2 with a maul that im not specced for, thereby out dpsing the barb anyway.

It goes either way.

Are you saying that you respec your feats to focus on bludgeoning for epic wiz king? Or that you take WF: Bludgeoning in addition to WF: Slashing? Or...what? How are you getting anywhere near as much attack bonus as a fully raged and geared barbarian using blunt weapons?

Barbarians are far more flexible with their weapon choices, since all of their abilities work with whatever weapon they pick up, which is neither true of fighters themselves, nor Kensai for which that is even less true.

[Rexmundis]

Overall, Barbs are plain old better in general and for longer durations. They've got speed, greater DPS for longer durations of time, better DR, higher DC's, and are very versatile ( like someone said they can pick up any weapon and still have all the bonuses). <- none of these things are opinion, they've been shown again and again to be true.

Fighters need a leg up, ESPECIALLY the shield and sword variants, and more so a specific unique ability. How about this:

"Skill of the Warrior": With this skill, the fighter gains the chance to randomly trigger a combat skill like trip, stun, sunder. This triggers at random and the skill triggered is randomized,further it applies to all normal attacks (although it can be turned off) it works regardless if the fighter has the feat or not. It is a nod to the fighter's culmination in combat arms ability that he may see openings for different manuevers in a enemies' defenses.

[Emili]

Overall, Barbs are plain old better in general and for longer durations. They've got speed, greater DPS for longer durations of time, better DR, higher DC's, and are very versatile ( like someone said they can pick up any weapon and still have all the bonuses). <- none of these things are opinion, they've been shown again and again to be true.

Fighters need a leg up, ESPECIALLY the shield and sword variants, and more so a specific unique ability. How about this:

"Skill of the Warrior": With this skill, the fighter gains the chance to randomly trigger a combat skill like trip, stun, sunder. This triggers at random and the skill triggered is randomized,further it applies to all normal attacks (although it can be turned off) it works regardless if the fighter has the feat or not. It is a nod to the fighter's culmination in combat arms ability that he may see openings for different manuevers in a enemies' defenses.

Lmao… how in bloody hell did I know I’d come back to this thread a day latter to see a Barbarian vs Fighter debate cal?

Quite simply put… I’ve play many melee, and for a long time here.

My viewpoint. Barbarians are easier and a fighter is more of a risky persons build more player skill, thought and instinct is needed to play one. A great player behind a barb shines, yet a great player behind a fighter stands out more.

Barbarians: Not to tell people like Shade are a kin to pikers … Quite the contrary Shade is actually one of the best melee on the server and a barb dripping with epic loot just makes his playing more awesome … Shade behind the keyboard of a fighter would still be Shade and just as great a player… Yet my point is barbarians are easily designed and come nearly preloaded in what is needed to be a good melee … stat distribution simple, you take your feats for combat style the requirements for berserker and off you go … grind for loot and you’re set. Good skill as any melee behind it and you do fine. Rage, rage, rage, fenzy, double a tactic while twitching away… keep your eyes pealed and you're doing well.

Fighters: The fighter takes a heck of a lot more in design and play then a barbarian… You are feat based and distribute your stats making sure you’re in reach of acquiring the feats you plan. More thought needed in build of a fighter and is easier to screw up then a barbarian is. You are tightly gear dependent and poking around much more to bring the build to blossom … fighters are more resource intensive, after all the yugo’s, rages, titan grips, one min surges, 20 sec haste boosting, etc.. You’re still squeezing out all efforts from the keyboard side… button mashing clicking and prodding far more then the barbarian. You must rely on instincts more and take risks and chance more often, have I spent that resource early? You’ve less saves, dr variable, dps more variable, the fighter is a marriage of risk and skill within the quest…

Paladin: This melee is even more design and play intensive on the players part than a fighter … despite it’s fantastic built in survival… button mashing and resource management galore a kotc against evil outsiders you feel godly ... yet is more interaction to make it so... outside of the evil of the world of eberon you're squeezing all you can to produce.

I refuse to dispute a which one is better nor this one has better survival vs this one hits over 1000hp ... berzerkers are shrear brutes is a fact, fighter can kill just as well but takes more on your end. sometimes my game is on with either sometimes off - luckily people seem to think they see me more on than off but over course of time I have fun just the same... I know plenty of great melee players in all classes and as such cannot bloody rightfully tell... barbs are best, for me I saw what went down ... player x is best, class aside.

[grodon9999]

I know the epic SoS has kinda put blinders on everyone, but has anyone tested TWF to see if the swing-speed is the same as a TWF Kensai or BAB-20 tempest?

[grodon9999]

Lmao… how in bloody hell did I know I’d come back to this thread a day latter to see a Barbarian vs Fighter debate cal?

Quite simply put… I’ve play many melee, and for a long time here.

My viewpoint. Barbarians are easier and a fighter is more of a risky persons build more player skill, thought and instinct is needed to play one. A great player behind a barb shines, yet a great player behind a fighter stands out more.

Barbarians: Not to tell people like Shade are a kin to pikers … Quite the contrary Shade is actually one of the best melee on the server and a barb dripping with epic loot just makes his playing more awesome … Shade behind the keyboard of a fighter would still be Shade and just as great a player… Yet my point is barbarians are easily designed and come nearly preloaded in what is needed to be a good melee … stat distribution simple, you take your feats for combat style the requirements for berserker and off you go … grind for loot and you’re set. Good skill as any melee behind it and you do fine. Rage, rage, rage, fenzy, double a tactic while twitching away… keep your eyes pealed and you're doing well.

Fighters: The fighter takes a heck of a lot more in design and play then a barbarian to play… You are feat based and distribute your stats making sure you’re near in reach of acquiring the feats you plan, More thought needed in build of a fighter and is easier to screw up then a barbarian is when comes to build… You are tightly gear dependent and poking around much more to bring the build to blossom … fighters are more resource intensive, after all the yugo’s, rages, titan grips, one min surges, 20 sec haste boosting, etc.. You’re still squeezing out all efforts from the keyboard side… button mashing clicking and prodding far more then the barbarian. You must rely on instincts more and take risks and chance more often, have I spent that resource early? You’ve less saves on average, dr variable, dps more variable, the fighter is a marriage of risk and skill within the quest…

Paladin: This melee is even more design and play intensive on the players part then the fighter … despite it’s fantastic built in survival… button mashing and resource management galore.

What? no Ranger lovin?

[Emili]

What? no Ranger lovin?

I've three rangers... yes THREE, Tempest are great melee but lovin' they need little.

[Chai]

WoP? Con damage in general (nerfed CK). Crit Rage. Rampant immunities might be seen as stealth nerfs to some prevalent spells and strategies.

Nothing else springs to mind at the moment, but there's more.

WOP - a feature was changed in the game that 0 con doesnt kill anymore. This isnt a straight nerf as players benefit from this by not dying at 0 con (save special situations) - end result is it now takes 2 nanoseconds longer to kill a mob with WOP rapiers because you have to damage their now extremely low hp total to 0 and are auto critting the entire time. - hardly a nerf.

Crit Rage - changed to frenzied berserker, which is actually BETTER. Barbarians didnt become less powerful because of the change. - not a nerf.

Buffing up mobs power with immunities isnt a nerf. A nerf is when you had a certain level of power due to having specific abilities, and the change to those abilities made you less powerful. You should have played EQ or SWG if you want to know the true definition of "nerf"

Its amazing how many players cry foul when these kinds of changes happen to the game. I dont think a good portion of them played a game before where things got truely nerfed, daily, weekly, monthly and so on. Sony / Verant games and WOW were alot more famous (infamous) for this early on. Papadins ruled in WOW one day, and sucked the next day after an update. Priests were average one day, then were unkillable after an update. This kind of stuff doesnt happen in DDO.

Classic nerf example:

I remember in EQ, when the devs came right out and said in the patch notes: Spells that do not do damage now have a significantly reduced chance to land on higher level monsters, and this increases per level difference between the caster and the monster. This equated to not being able to snare, root, or crowd control higher level mobs, which made it much harder to xp because you now had to kill lower level mobs en masse for xp rather than seeking out a nice comfortable vacant higher level dungeon to xp your toons in.

As far as this thread topic goes, its also not a nerf if the ability granted by the enhancement was not intended, and clearly they can say it isnt because its not listed.

[Chai]

Lmao… how in bloody hell did I know I’d come back to this thread a day latter to see a Barbarian vs Fighter debate cal?

Quite simply put… I’ve play many melee, and for a long time here.

My viewpoint. Barbarians are easier and a fighter is more of a risky persons build more player skill, thought and instinct is needed to play one. A great player behind a barb shines, yet a great player behind a fighter stands out more.

Barbarians: Not to tell people like Shade are a kin to pikers … Quite the contrary Shade is actually one of the best melee on the server and a barb dripping with epic loot just makes his playing more awesome … Shade behind the keyboard of a fighter would still be Shade and just as great a player… Yet my point is barbarians are easily designed and come nearly preloaded in what is needed to be a good melee … stat distribution simple, you take your feats for combat style the requirements for berserker and off you go … grind for loot and you’re set. Good skill as any melee behind it and you do fine. Rage, rage, rage, fenzy, double a tactic while twitching away… keep your eyes pealed and you're doing well.

Fighters: The fighter takes a heck of a lot more in design and play then a barbarian… You are feat based and distribute your stats making sure you’re in reach of acquiring the feats you plan. More thought needed in build of a fighter and is easier to screw up then a barbarian is. You are tightly gear dependent and poking around much more to bring the build to blossom … fighters are more resource intensive, after all the yugo’s, rages, titan grips, one min surges, 20 sec haste boosting, etc.. You’re still squeezing out all efforts from the keyboard side… button mashing clicking and prodding far more then the barbarian. You must rely on instincts more and take risks and chance more often, have I spent that resource early? You’ve less saves, dr variable, dps more variable, the fighter is a marriage of risk and skill within the quest…

Paladin: This melee is even more design and play intensive on the players part than a fighter … despite it’s fantastic built in survival… button mashing and resource management galore a kotc against evil outsiders you feel godly ... yet is more interaction to make it so... outside of the evil of the world of eberon you're squeezing all you can to produce.

I refuse to dispute a which one is better nor this one has better survival vs this one hits over 1000hp ... berzerkers are shrear brutes is a fact, fighter can kill just as well but takes more on your end. sometimes my game is on with either sometimes off - luckily people seem to think they see me more on than off but over course of time I have fun just the same... I know plenty of great melee players in all classes and as such cannot bloody rightfully tell... barbs are best, for me I saw what went down ... player x is best, class aside.

This is why I like DDO. You can have your "I just do damage" melee toon. You can have your "I like to push buttons that activate abilities" melee toon. You can have your "high ac and damage mitigation" melee toon. You can have your "self healing self sufficient" melee toon. All of them can have the same class icon. In other MMOS, you are a cookie cutter warrior class that has the same abilities as everyone else with your class icon, and you also wear the same gear at the same tier level of the game, need to min max the same stats to be effective, etc.

I let the min maxers debate the numbers, these are entertaining reads at times, but nothing more really.

Oh yeah, and Player > Character or Class.

[maddmatt70]

Shrug, so you all think this is the only bug out there that benefits a specific class. 10 to 1 says fighters have a bug of a similiar nature too. The pallys got their own bugs such as knights damage being applied to undead, etc. I actually run with fighters and barbarians and paladins and rangers - its pretty clear fighters and barbarians are the same at least when it comes to offense. Paladins got to fight evil outsiders and rangers have to fight favored enemy to be equivalent.

[Nick_RC]

Well I read ur reply last night and some of you're points I wasnt all that sure on. I thought I would sleep on it and revisit this morning when I wasnt exhausted. And considering we play in the same sandbox relatively speaking (Argo) il approach what ur saying with a definate /flame off approach hehe.

Actually before I reply I read some of ur other posts and I see what you are really trying to say is -fighters are competitive with barbs. And ur absolutely right. With their favorite weapon in hand ftrs are fantastic. Anybody that doesnt think that a ftr can compete right up there is seriously misinformed. When the kensai has their favorite weapon in hand.

You are 100% correct- but for the player whose fighter isnt their main or first priority in terms of gear.

Those situations where you need to use a blunt weapon, yea barbs will out dps the fighter- but again, thats a minority of sitations. Sally, harry, reaver, dragon, dq the whole nine yards are still the bulk of which fighters do just fine in.Yup and in fact dont sell urself short they do great in. So if we assume they do equallish DPS vs those foes (without splitting hairs), and that fighters take a bigger hit when fighting with non specialised weapon than a barb does then by default the Barb wins overall DPS.

In terms of defense, If you really work at it- my fighter is infinitely times more survivable than a barb because, first I have just as many hp if not more than 90% of barbs (select few that top me exist) and I have the UMD for heal scrolls. I think survivability in a DPS analysis more implies healing from an external source. U aint gonna be popping heal scrolls when beating on raid bosses. So really for a DPS, 0AC build it comes down to HP (similar) DR (Barb wins) and saves (Fort Barb wins, Reflex barb tops a ftr while his uncanny dodge is up, ftr wins after and Will barb wins.)

In general play I think a huge umd is something of a waste on a ftr/barb for the following reasons.

1. For heal scrolls to be activated on an intermittant basis you wont be madstoning thereby reducing ur attack speed by 5%, ur Str by 4 and a loss of hp for any time u potentially want to use them.

2. It takes time to switch to a heal scroll, go through the animation, pass concentration checks, pass armour checks(see its frogsuit and dragonhide) if under fire. I dont knw what ur build is exactly but I see u have Intim on a hotbar and obviously UMD so there is ur Human 8 base int there. If u have eaten a +2/4 tome and LR then you COULD fit in concentration, but im guessing u havnt, and without concentration items and full progression in it my gut tells me u will be failing those checks often. So really the only times ur gonna be using Heal scrolls is when there arnt mobs around/not dire situations. I.e its not a life or death situation. And if its not a life or death situation then any source of healing is healing. Honestly for the Ftr/Barb IMO silver flame pots are the be all and end all of significant healing.

Fighters are much more gear dependant than barbs to make them effective in end game content.

Also, barbs run into a dead end with their dps being GAME maxed. Actually this is the part that had me stumped for a while cos I really didnt see what u were saying. You are talking about race not class. And as such its sort of irelevant.

Ill explain: Currently, dwarves get skunked when wielding a weapon that is not an axe, because axe damage doesnt apply to the Epic SoS. Warforged get the edge here. But seeker 10 only exists on the armor- which warforged cant wear. So, racial perks and the marilith chain coupled with the Epic SoS get torn. Thats just an example of end game dps gear split.

As a fighter I can take advantage of everything currently implemented that adds damage, even the +1 damage from LOTD ill be able to incorporate.No. As a HUMAN u can take advantage of all those. It has nothing to do with whether you are a ftr/barb. It has to do with race not class. I understand gear splits precluded by race BUT ur making a comparison on class which is flawed. A human ftr is to a human barb, A wf fighter is to a wf barb a dwarf ftr is to a dwarf barb - gear wise. The gear setups will be **** near carbon copies comparing similar raced fighters to barbs(Tod sets aside).

Also, I see tons of barbs come into epic wiz king and miss with their mauls, while I am hitting him on a 2 with a maul that im not specced for, thereby out dpsing the barb anyway. Ur toon is very well equipped and without wf PA enhancements ur likely absolutly right. But against similarly equipped barbs... you got to compare apples to apples

It goes either way.

One thing that I have to give to fighters and a large reason why im doing 3 Fighter lives is that there too hit with their favorite weapon is just fantastic when it comes to being redskulled. When its redskull time and im on my kensai I still hit very frequently but similar classes have a much harder time. I hate missing so 3 ftr past lives for the too hit win and tactics win

Anyway take care - was a great vid by the way good to see some of the argo folk there.

N

[Gunga]

Barbs rule.

Heya Nick.