Barbarian capstone seems to give a hidden haste boost

[Boromirs]

Haven't we just gone over this? DPS (sure sure argue all you want on this) AND FEATS (if this isn't a handdowns winner I don't know what is)!

Feats to what end though? If you can already get most of your combat power from other sources built into your class, why even bother getting feats (most of them are fairly useless btw).

BTW, a side note on that, should I get mithril armor or addy armor on my kensai 20 pure? I do have an extra feat sitting around but what will armor do to my WF fighter really? (a measly 5 extra AC points lol)

[Progen]

More dr.. i guess. But still quickdraw increases dps, you can boost saves (more survivable), you can get skill foci for either intimidate or UMD ect, you can get more toughness feats to bring hp more in line with a barbs, you can get dragonmarks if you want / for more survivability in some cases ..... I'm sure you can fill in some more.

You also seem to have missed by edit in the previous post, which you can respond to or not, but they are still valid points.

[Progen]

A fighter that has defense (ac) will never come even remotely close to barb dps.
A fighter with max dps, will not have nearly the same defense that a barb gets (hp an dr)

Just to be clear, I believe that Monkey_Archer has the best view on this.

[Murderface]

tested and yes capstone is 10% melee alacrity tested vs pally with gtwf
pally without haste and zeal was slower then barb with no haste when it should have been the same

[Cetus]

Feats to what end though? If you can already get most of your combat power from other sources built into your class, why even bother getting feats (most of them are fairly useless btw).

BTW, a side note on that, should I get mithril armor or addy armor on my kensai 20 pure? I do have an extra feat sitting around but what will armor do to my WF fighter really? (a measly 5 extra AC points lol)

Judging by your join date is seems that you have had limited experience testing both classes.

You want to see the classes in action?
Watch shades dragon video and watch mine, then let us know again if you tink fighters get a big fat zero.

Top figure on a non crit in there for me? 109
barb: low 100's

Top crit shown in the video for me? 460 (14-20 is 35% crit roll)
Barb: high 300's on 15-18 (727 on 19 and a 20)

You wanna chug numbers, lets do it:

20 hits:

Fighter gets the first 13 hits as 105 points of damage (just picking reasonable number)

thats 13 . 105 = 1365

14-20 is 7 hits . 450 (consistent number) = 3150

3150 and 1365 = 4515 points of damage in 20 swings.

BARB:

First 14 hits: about 5 points lower (its actually more but I'll be generous with the barb numbers)

say 100 . 14 = 1400

15-18 is about 390= 4.390= 1560

19-20 ill bump it to 730 (never crit that high in the video) = 2.730 = 1460

1460+1560+1400= 4420 points of damage.

Now, I did not count the frenzy damage on every hit, glancing blows (mine hit harder in the video as well) and I gave him the highest crit possible on a 19 or 20- keep in mind that they are often in the high 600's as well. Mine never fluctuate as much as his did.

BUT I also did not count the 30% fighter haste boost.

Oh and in terms of survivability, if you take a look- I have heal scrolls on my hotbar- that also means something.
The hitpoint difference is obvious.

PS. Once double madstone procs- I have dr4 boots I usually put on- That is another source of dr that is roughly half of the barbs inherent dr.

I am in no way shape or form claiming that barbarians have inferior dps. I had a level 20 warforged barb as a TR and the dps was phenomenal. I am working on one right now to have one permanantly on my account.

But I don't think its fair to completely destroy fighters in the faces of barbs- especially by those who have never truly worked on one to see what they can do.

Peace.

[Progen]

Those numbers are obviously slightly flawed and leave out quite a bit, but I still think the maximum damage difference to be sub 5% and as stated above the survivability difference isn't huge, although it is much easier for a barb to get max hp with max dps, which fighters struggle to do.

[Cetus]

Those numbers are obviously slightly flawed and leave out quite a bit, but I still think the maximum damage difference to be sub 5% and as stated above the survivability difference isn't huge, although it is much easier for a barb to get max hp with max dps, which fighters struggle to do.

Generalizations dont mean anything. What did I leave out that I havent stated? and how are the numbers flawed?

Specifics man.

[Progen]

20 hits:

Fighter gets the first 13 hits as 105 points of damage (just picking reasonable number)

thats 13 . 105 = 1365

14-20 is 7 hits . 450 (consistent number) = 3150

3150 and 1365 = 4515 points of damage in 20 swings.

BARB:

First 14 hits: about 5 points lower (its actually more but I'll be generous with the barb numbers)

say 100 . 14 = 1400

15-18 is about 390= 4.390= 1560

19-20 ill bump it to 730 (never crit that high in the video) = 2.730 = 1460

1460+1560+1400= 4420 points of damage.

Now, I did not count the frenzy damage on every hit, glancing blows (mine hit harder in the video as well) and I gave him the highest crit possible on a 19 or 20- keep in mind that they are often in the high 600's as well. Mine never fluctuate as much as his did.

BUT I also did not count the 30% fighter haste boost.

Well you asked for specifications and there you go. Might want to proofread you own work first before asking others to edit it.

And yes I get your whole "that i didn't state", BUT THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT and you even recognized the facts, so blaming me for not re-emphasizing them isn't really a great strategy.

EDIT: Also taking my advice and proofreading this afterward I realize I am coming off as an @ss and for that I apologize.

[Cetus]

Well you asked for specifications and there you go. Might want to proofread you own work first before asking others to edit it.

Thanks you quoted me and underlined stuff.

Reread my response to you- I said what did I leave out that I HAVENT STATED.

Thanks for playing!

[Progen]

I really don't get what you want from me.

YOU stated that there were issues with it.

I then took it for granted that you knew there were issues with it.

I then used the fact that the calculations were flawed (which you stated yourself) in a comment.

You yell at me for making that assumption and ask for specifics/proof.

I quoted you for specifics/proof that YOU stated.

You yell at me again.

I ask you again. What do you want from me?

[Shade]

I can justify counter to your second point. I sit at mid 900's sustained hp- watch my dragon video on the fighter forums.

Doesn't really counter his point.

A "max" (by your standard) dps barbarian with the same setup your character has, would easily have 1000+ hp, 9DR/- and superior saves to boot.

[Shade]

Watch shades dragon video and watch mine, then let us know again if you tink fighters get a big fat zero.

Why would anyone for this purpose. That's a complete apples to oranges comparion as we've already discussed.

It's the same as saying fighters do more damage when they have more buffs and you compare there 2 minuits dps to what a barbariaan does in 5 minuits.. I mean your video doesn't even show the entire fight.

If one wanted to consider it as a fair comparison based soley on the video the conclusion could easliy be:
Barbarians are better dps as they can kill dragons, while fighters only get them to half, then die. It's about as accurate as anything else you could gleam from some short clips where the sample size is very small and the buffs used are not equal.

If you want to get a 100% maxxed buff comparison video, you can check out my new epic marilithi chain video.

[Boromirs]

BTW, Durnak,

Should I get mithril or Addy armor on my TWF kensei (with tome will get base 18 dex)? If so which one, Mithril or Addy?

[Cetus]

Why would anyone for this purpose. That's a complete apples to oranges comparion as we've already discussed.

It's the same as saying fighters do more damage when they have more buffs and you compare there 2 minuits dps to what a barbariaan does in 5 minuits.. I mean your video doesn't even show the entire fight.

If one wanted to consider it as a fair comparison based soley on the video the conclusion could easliy be:
Barbarians are better dps as they can kill dragons, while fighters only get them to half, then die. It's about as accurate as anything else you could gleam from some short clips where the sample size is very small and the buffs used are not equal.

If you want to get a 100% maxxed buff comparison video, you can check out my new epic marilithi chain video.

I feel like you are scrambling for any argument you can think of to prove a point that quite frankly is still in some grey zone.

Video length? I picked an adequate sample size. Nothing changes throughout the video- buffs stay the same- bard songs get replayed..etc...boosts never run out.

Talking about gear? I use what is offered in the videos- whether or not you are lacking gear is not my concern- I too lack a LOT of gear still to truly GAME MAX my dps.

Point I am making is fighters are not at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to barbs, and I have proven that.

If and when I achieve my planned out gear setup I'll immediately recapture the video with numbers that'll be more satisfying to my point; and hopefully reveal some information that can change the general mindset on fighter dps. Thats all that my goal entails.

[Progen]

Durnak, now that your posting again, would you mind replying to me? I can see that I obviously annoyed you and am trying my best to placate you. So please ... help me help you.

(I am feeling particularly like a jerk today, should probably get some sleep)

EDIT: noticing how you treat shade, I also can't say I feel like I made a bad choice of who to be a jerk to, and if you want me to specify why, feel free to ask)

[Cetus]

Durnak, now that your posting again, would you mind replying to me? I can see that I obviously annoyed you and am trying my best to placate you. So please ... help me help you.

(I am feeling particularly like a jerk today, should probably get some sleep)

EDIT: noticing how you treat shade, I also can't say I feel like I made a bad choice of who to be a jerk to, and if you want me to specify why, feel free to ask)

Hey man sorry if I came across as *yelling* the caps in the previous posts are meant to emphasize certain points- not yell.

As for shade, I have already debated this with him- you can take a look here for some background info that is leaking into here:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=239884

[Boromirs]

Soooo... Mithril or Addy Body on Pure 20 kensai fighter..yay? Nay? And which one if so?

[Progen]

Hey man sorry if I came across as *yelling* the caps in the previous posts are meant to emphasize certain points- not yell.

As for shade, I have already debated this with him- you can take a look here for some background info that is leaking into here:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=239884

No problem. I was out of line too and apologize. Same here.

I also shouldn't have delved into other arguments and will try and refrain from doing so in the future.

On the other hand, Boromirs, if you don't care about AC at all go adamantine for the 2/adamantine dr boostable by enhancements I believe, although I'm sure there are more beneficial feat choices. For AC we would need much much more information but due to your low dex I assume AC isn't an issue.

[Kaeldur]

Why shouldn't it be nerfed? It was clearly good enough to warrant going 20 barbarian before anyone noticed the possibility of a hidden effect, and that hidden effect (if there is one) is essentially the same thing that fighters get as their whole capstone (and almost the same thing as rangers get for theirs).

Plus, barbarians are already at, or almost at, the top in terms of DPS--why would they require the 10% boost?

But I think you're missing the point. If the above stated effect exists you must remember that ALL comparisons between classes are taken based on the current state of the game, which means that the barb's DPS already depends on the supposed "alacrity".

Now, IMO going 20 barbarian is more worth it cause of the improved rage, the capstone (as described) is just an additional "little bonus".

[Cetus]

But I think you're missing the point. If the above stated effect exists you must remember that ALL comparisons between classes are taken based on the current state of the game, which means that the barb's DPS already depends on the supposed "alacrity".

Now, IMO going 20 barbarian is more worth it cause of the improved rage, the capstone (as described) is just an additional "little bonus".

My initial points made in this thread with reference to this issue most closely resemble what sephiroth wrote in that above quote, except he said it much better than I did.