Barbarian capstone seems to give a hidden haste boost

[Monkey_Archer]

Shade's probably the only one active on the forums to do a fast test and see if this applies to twitching since he twitches close to perfect. This might be interesting to know.

Shade's video here shows ~136 attacks per minute twitch.
In game i usually see ~130 for a full BAB character, and ~140 for a capstone fighter...

I think this (potential) bug might be a result of the way the capstone bonus to glancing blows is coded. BAB affects glancing blow damage, so by coding the capstone to artificially raise the barb's BAB it would theoretically increase glancing blow damage. But, since attack speed is also a function of BAB (as of the last attack speed change patch), that could have caused the increased attack rate... theoretically...

[transtemporal]

Hmm, that certainly looks faster, even with the crappy frame rate. It looks like the speed increase I got when I picked up the ftr capstone... anyone want to bet someone copied and pasted the ftr capstone, renamed it, and added +2 str? lol

[Cetus]

Ok lets try it this way,

9-10% additional haste boost effect from the capstone is a good thing.

It is untyped, and, as shows by the video, is acquired through a capstone description that also grants additional benefits.

So all in all, a level 20 barb gets- barbarian might, mighty rage, and 10% attack speed boost now...

Fighters get just the 10% attack speed boost...

Seems kinda imbalanced dont ya think? When putting fighters and barbs into perspective.

No sarcasm, just a little bit of reasoning.

[Consumer]

Ok lets try it this way,

9-10% additional haste boost effect from the capstone is a good thing.

It is untyped, and, as shows by the video, is acquired through a capstone description that also grants additional benefits.

So all in all, a level 20 barb gets- barbarian might, mighty rage, and 10% attack speed boost now...

Fighters get just the 10% attack speed boost...

Seems kinda imbalanced dont ya think? When putting fighters and barbs into perspective.

No sarcasm, just a little bit of reasoning.

And yet your fighters dps is still slightly higher.

[zealous]

This is a clear heavy imbalance toward barbs, who already get so much love they can swim in it. An untyped effect granted without being referred to in a description is not WAI by the very descriptive nature of the game.

If there wasn't a imbalance between haste boost and damage boost this would be true.

[testing1234]

why not hit a portal in a outdoor area if u use a viscous weapon damage scales down to d1 if you are alone in the area so by your loss of hp you can tell how many hits.
would be nice get a 2weapon testing done also.
remember to unequip any regeneration

as i dont have either a barb-fighter-ranger-pala.... im relatively unbiased and i do think its not unreasonable barbs get some kind of "haste" effect i mean pala-fighter-ranger (rogue have boost) all have 1.

on a biased note if they keep raising pure "tanks" dps that makes melee clerics/bards/wizes... dps lower by contrast and since they normally balance for content around max possible dps/dc/...

[metalworker]

Shade's video here shows ~136 attacks per minute twitch.
In game i usually see ~130 for a full BAB character, and ~140 for a capstone fighter...

I think this (potential) bug might be a result of the way the capstone bonus to glancing blows is coded. BAB affects glancing blow damage, so by coding the capstone to artificially raise the barb's BAB it would theoretically increase glancing blow damage. But, since attack speed is also a function of BAB (as of the last attack speed change patch), that could have caused the increased attack rate... theoretically...

monkeyarcher, great analysis and I think that might be a very clear hypothesis for this observation. Taking this into account, maybe instead of testing the WF enhancement based on procs, it maybe interesting to test the enhancement lines with number of attacks. I have a feeling there maybe something to this as well if your hypothesis holds. And if it is true, then it's just the way glancing blows are coded in the game that they have to do this to increase glancing blow procs.

So the following maybe worthwhile testing (as an insight to how glancing blow works)
- Barb capstone (tested by OP, monkey archer's hypothesis holds for this)
- WF Great weapon aptitude enhancement line (if monkey archer's hypothesis holds, then we should see an increase in attack rate, somewhat)
- THF, ITHF, GTHF (these increase proc rates, and if the hypothesis holds, we should see increase in attack rate, but these feats are more well known since most specifically state that they add a glancing blow on the 'x' attack, but the chances to proc glancing blow might be connected to attack speed, and we'll see if the hypothesis holds as well).

Other things that can be tested similarly: on a THF fighter with and without kensei bonus (since these increase glancing blows).

This hypothesis is interesting for me as:
1) We don't know how DDO codes the proc chances, and most of them are determined by player testing.
2) It's much easier to increase proc rates by just scaling attack rates (many of which are coded in game by effects like haste, haste boost etc).

Then again, if DDO devs weren't lazy, glancing blows are another line of codes, but if they're lazy, they probably just played around with attack rates to kind of justify glancing blows.

[Monkey_Archer]

Ok lets try it this way,

9-10% additional haste boost effect from the capstone is a good thing.

It is untyped, and, as shows by the video, is acquired through a capstone description that also grants additional benefits.

So all in all, a level 20 barb gets- barbarian might, mighty rage, and 10% attack speed boost now...

Fighters get just the 10% attack speed boost...

Seems kinda imbalanced dont ya think? When putting fighters and barbs into perspective.

No sarcasm, just a little bit of reasoning.

No need to get upset

Its clearly an unintended bug, that will be fixed soon(tm)

[Monkey_Archer]

monkeyarcher, great analysis and I think that might be a very clear hypothesis for this observation. Taking this into account, maybe instead of testing the WF enhancement based on procs, it maybe interesting to test the enhancement lines with number of attacks. I have a feeling there maybe something to this as well if your hypothesis holds. And if it is true, then it's just the way glancing blows are coded in the game that they have to do this to increase glancing blow procs.

So the following maybe worthwhile testing (as an insight to how glancing blow works)
- Barb capstone (tested by OP, monkey archer's hypothesis holds for this)
- WF Great weapon aptitude enhancement line (if monkey archer's hypothesis holds, then we should see an increase in attack rate, somewhat)
- THF, ITHF, GTHF (these increase proc rates, and if the hypothesis holds, we should see increase in attack rate, but these feats are more well known since most specifically state that they add a glancing blow on the 'x' attack, but the chances to proc glancing blow might be connected to attack speed, and we'll see if the hypothesis holds as well).

Other things that can be tested similarly: on a THF fighter with and without kensei bonus (since these increase glancing blows).

This hypothesis is interesting for me as:
1) We don't know how DDO codes the proc chances, and most of them are determined by player testing.
2) It's much easier to increase proc rates by just scaling attack rates (many of which are coded in game by effects like haste, haste boost etc).

Then again, if DDO devs weren't lazy, glancing blows are another line of codes, but if they're lazy, they probably just played around with attack rates to kind of justify glancing blows.

I was referring to the increase in base glancing blow damage, not the glancing blow proc rate. WF great weapon aptitude, or the THF feat chain dont directly increase glancing blow base damage through BAB so they wont have any effect on attack speed.

[Shade]

Seems kinda imbalanced dont ya think?

Waaahh this class I never play possibly has some kinda small bug that I otherwise would of never knew about ever if I didn't read the forums.. omg nerf please.

Shhh no one tell him about the secret extra +40 damage we get with the berserker set or the fact our runspeed boosts actaully provide more then you'd think!

I think this (potential) bug might be a result of the way the capstone bonus to glancing blows is coded. BAB affects glancing blow damage, so by coding the capstone to artificially raise the barb's BAB it would theoretically increase glancing blow damage.

Except the fact the capstone doesn't increase glancing blow damage at all.

Its clearly an unintended bug, that will be fixed soon(tm)

Well since everyone on this thread seems to know whats intended and whats not like there some kinda dev themselves... I'll chime in too:
The capstone is sposed to provide a +9000% damage increase to glancing blow dmg. So when the uber powerful secret boost we may or may not have gets fixed, they might even remember to fix the fact the capstone is severely broken anyways and thus we gain power either way.

So either way fighter lovers (or should I say barbarian haters?): It's a lose-lose scenario for ya.

[Monkey_Archer]

Except the fact the capstone doesn't increase glancing blow damage at all.

Well thats my point... Its supposed to.

Glancing blow damage increases at certain BAB levels (6,11,16 i think?) so does attack speed (BAB 1-4, 5-9, 10-14, 15-19, 20)

Its quite possible the devs simply got these two mixed up, unintentionally raising attack speed instead of glancing blow damage.

[mediocresurgeon]

Devs, please ignore this entire thread. It does not exist. It never has, and never will. You will forget any ideas you may have about the Barb capstone acting funny, except that it does not have increased glancing blow damage yet.

My question is how in the hell did the entire purist barb population miss this for so long? That's the only thing that makes me query it.

A Pure barb is going to hit level 20, take the capstone, and never swing a weapon without the capstone again. So they get used to their attack speed, and never actually compare it to non-capstone speeds.

Arguing that this effect should be nerfed because it is better than the capstone of another class is the wrong argument: Fighters should be arguing for a MORE POWERFUL capstone, not a weaker barb one! However, nobody is arguing that barbs are overpowered at the moment--there seems to be a fair balance between fighters/barbs. The barb capstone has been working this way for 9 months; just because someone noticed its additional benefit does not mean that people have not been using this benefit that whole time. Nine months of live-server testing shows that the barb capstone is not unbalanced in regards to this hidden attack speed boost.

Naturally, though, people who like DPS calculations and theoreticals (MUCH more common on the forums than the in-game population) this means a bunch more work to do.

Has Shade posted an updated video of THF twitch? I know he posted one at 136 APM, but that was pre-haste nerf and pre-"BAB=attack speed" changes (Update 2?).

[Shade]

Has Shade posted an updated video of THF twitch? I know he posted one at 136 APM, but that was pre-haste nerf and pre-"BAB=attack speed" changes (Update 2?).

No it wasn't. It was posted after all of the latest attack speed changes, which were in update1 patch2.

[mediocresurgeon]

No it wasn't. It was posted after all of the latest attack speed changes, which were in update1 patch2.

Okay, thanks for verifying that.

I was running some attack speed comparisons with Spyderwolf right before the servers went down. There is no difference in attack speeds between a Capstone Madstoned Fighter and Capstone Madstoned Barbarian while attacking with a two-handed weapon (114 APM non-twitch).

[Monkey_Archer]

Fighters should be arguing for a MORE POWERFUL capstone, not a weaker barb one! However, nobody is arguing that barbs are overpowered at the moment--there seems to be a fair balance between fighters/barbs.

IMO the fighter capstone is powerful enough as is. The barbarian capstone as described is also powerful enough.

Your biceps are frequently mistaken for overlarge slabs of ham. Your strength is increased by 2, and when wielding two-handed weapons you have increased glancing blow damage and an increased chance of applying weapon special effects on glancing blows.

The key to balance here is that they are different. Fighters get speed, while barbs get strength and extra AOE damage (or they should if it wasn't currently broken). The issue is not that "barbs are overpowered" but that there isnt fair balance between THF barbs and THF everything else.

Even with the assumption that fighters would attack 10% faster (which they apparently dont) Barbs were still well ahead of fighters in THF dps.

As it stands, pure barbarian is the only THF character worth building IMO, they're just too far ahead of everything else... which shoulnt be the case

[Zippo]

nice find. but expect turbine to come with the nerf bat when they read this

Hmmm. Kinda makes you wonder if the devs worship it sometimes doesn't it

[Nick_RC]

I don't knw why people are complaining. All the number crunching seems to have taken the twitching attack rate with hidden capstone boost anyway. And the majority of those numbers support closeness In dps.... So what's the problem?

[woundweaver]

hehe, thanks for the neg rep for my last post. you mistake me for someone who cares. you would be better served giving neg rep to someone who is willing to cry about it.

however, my point stands. neg rep away, if you will. at least have the balls to quote me or say something before you neg me. or are you less of a man??

[woundweaver]

Hmmm. Kinda makes you wonder if the devs worship it sometimes doesn't it

yup. and i got negged for it. guess i should worship the bat, as well...hehe

now, wheres that **** capstone...

[ebit157]

Waaahh this class I never play possibly has some kinda small bug that I otherwise would of never knew about ever if I didn't read the forums.. omg nerf please.

Shhh no one tell him about the secret extra +40 damage we get with the berserker set or the fact our runspeed boosts actaully provide more then you'd think!


Except the fact the capstone doesn't increase glancing blow damage at all.

Well since everyone on this thread seems to know whats intended and whats not like there some kinda dev themselves... I'll chime in too:
The capstone is sposed to provide a +9000% damage increase to glancing blow dmg. So when the uber powerful secret boost we may or may not have gets fixed, they might even remember to fix the fact the capstone is severely broken anyways and thus we gain power either way.

So either way fighter lovers (or should I say barbarian haters?): It's a lose-lose scenario for ya.

Wow, chill out. It does seem a bit unbalanced. It'd be like sorcs finding out their capstone also netted +2 charisma. Ignoring how awesome the wiz past life is, I'd be pretty bummed if I played a wiz.

On a similar note I'd expect a fix in the same timeliness that they fix the wizard's ability to use heal scrolls (which means barbs are probably safe for a good while).