Human, Drow, or Elf?

[Zachski]

And yet, some people just don't want to play Warforged. It's called personal preference.

Alas, min/maxers can't get past that :-/

[Aerendil]

The original question of the post is incomplete.

The answer is "Warforged"

I saw your reasoning - it fails.

WF wizard is not just good, it's great.

WF Wizard *IS* great. Don't think anyone's arguing that.
But not everyone prefers that.
Some like the challenge of a class that can't self-heal; some love the various robes graphics and want to be a race that can wear them (and there are some awesome robe graphics); some want the improved DCs of a higher INT; etc, etc.

One race that somehow got excluded from the fleshie list, however, is Halfling.
With the extra feats from Wizard, a halfling can pick up a few dragonmarks. Good for self-healing as well as healing others, and benefits from metamagic.
Just something to chew on

[samthedagger]

I'm approaching the wizard build with the intention of having highest saving throw DCs for all spells. So in that respect, drow and human seem to be the best. This thread has nothing to do with warforged. Already considered it, and it's not on the table, at least as far as this thread is concerned. Think of this as a thread on maximizing spell save DCs, and you will quickly see that warforged has no place in the discussion.

Not saying warforged wizards aren't great. Just saying that my preference is highest possible Int. Now if you can come up with a way for warforged to compete in the Int department, I'd love to hear it.

[GhoulsTouch]

My Question is if you want a sturdy build why not dwarf?
for a 32 build I got...

str 8
dex 9
con 19
int 18
wis 10
chr 6

It's all about the hp...

[samthedagger]

I never said a sturdy build was the primary focus. If so, warforged would be the clear winner. There is no need for a thread for that. The primary goal for me is most potent spells. In that regard, it's pretty much a contest between human and drow. The point of this thread is to consider the advantages and disadvantages of these two races against each other, not to talk about warforged, halflings or dwarves.

[GhoulsTouch]

I never said a sturdy build was the primary focus. If so, warforged would be the clear winner. There is no need for a thread for that. The primary goal for me is most potent spells. In that regard, it's pretty much a contest between human and drow. The point of this thread is to consider the advantages and disadvantages of these two races against each other, not to talk about warforged, halflings or dwarves.

Okay sure, but let me make one point. WF is a self healing arcane cleric. If you did want more hit points but wanted to be kinder to your divine caster so you dont feel guilty about using your sp on big casts you should go Dwarf as a Wizard IMO.

If you just wanted to make a point that Drow has higher intel, we know that. But a human can give you more spell focus feats for diversity...so call it in the air.

Now why aren't there more Dwarf Wizards is what I want to know.

[ddoer]

Not saying warforged wizards aren't great. Just saying that my preference is highest possible Int. Now if you can come up with a way for warforged to compete in the Int department, I'd love to hear it.

it's perfectly fine to choose any class for personal preference. My main is a drow caster and I won't consider to make her a WF. but if the main reason for not choosing WF is Int, i would say the -2 Int / -1 DC make almost no difference in the game.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I did consider warforged. Here is why I didn't include it.

Immunities: most of them can be handled with defensive spells (death ward, neutralize poison, etc.) and I don't solo a lot.
Self-healing: doesn't help when I'm incap, and self-healing is something that is only an issue if you don't have the money for pots. I'd rather spend my time as a wizard casting offensively and buffing. Let the clerics and favored souls do the healing. It's their job. (But please let's not turn this into an argument about the proper "job" for clerics and favored souls. They do it best. That is indisputable, so that is what I base my decision on.)
Intelligence: save DCs are king.

Don't get me wrong. I have a warforged wizard alt who is fun to play. But my main wizard is my power-game character, and I see the warforged wizard as more of a solo option.

It's your character...create what makes you happy....do note however that not even Silver Flame healing potions or UMD'ing heal scrolls are going to come even remotely close to being able to cast a quickened recon or using a recon scroll if ur a wf'ed.

I personally feel the two optimal choices for wizard are drow....for highest possible DC's or WF'ed for self healing.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I'm approaching the wizard build with the intention of having highest saving throw DCs for all spells. So in that respect, drow and human seem to be the best. This thread has nothing to do with warforged. Already considered it, and it's not on the table, at least as far as this thread is concerned. Think of this as a thread on maximizing spell save DCs, and you will quickly see that warforged has no place in the discussion.

Not saying warforged wizards aren't great. Just saying that my preference is highest possible Int. Now if you can come up with a way for warforged to compete in the Int department, I'd love to hear it.

The survivability of a wf'ed simply blows away the +1 DC a drow get's...even tho I figure if ur not going to be wf'ed that drow is the second best choice...if ur not going to have the survivability of a WF'ed u may as well have the highest INT.

[abull74]

WF Sorc....or WF wiz....not all the immunities they have can be replaced by spells

Dont gimp yourself and go drow/elf again.....you are taking a huge hit to HP and CON....Human if you must.....WF if you want to be self sufficient and just all around better.
I AM THE FPOON!!!

[Jakarr]

Can never understand how people think the wf look like ****?
The Human models and Both the elves look terrible, but then again just had this thought.....I'm guessin your the type that plays female chars(talking to the guys here).

[calavel]

Don't neglect the fact that humans (well, human males) can grow a beard. A beard will add tons of style to your wizard, making noobs go "oooh look at that guy's beard! He must be a really great wizard!"

Think of this as a thread on maximizing spell save DCs.

If you break it down like that, I'd say it's pretty simple:

Drow = 20 staring INT = +5 to all DC's

Human = 18 starting INT = +4 to all DC's (with the option of getting +1 to one school of spells by using your bonus feat)

Am I missing some obvious point here?

[samthedagger]

By endgame, the difference in Int between human and drow is only 1 because of Human Adaptability: Intelligence. What I am trying to figure out with this thread is whether that difference of 1 point pans out to a difference in Int modifier by endgame. If it does, I prefer drow for maximum save DCs (and to a lesser extent 29 bonus SP). If it doesn't, then I am comparing the two races side by side to see which is more advantageous. Thus far, the highest possible Int with drow seems to be 44, which means I will probably stick with drow. If someone can come up with an endgame Int for drow of 45, that means endgame Int for human is 44, and therefore I would probably prefer human for the extra Con and bonus feat.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Well...seeing as that new content will continued to be released......what might be the max INT today...won't necessarily be the max INT tomorrow.

While human is very appealing.....the fact of the matter is drow leaves the future open for if/when they introduce new items into the game that could raise INT even higher...whereas human will always be one point behind.

This is very extreme tho, as I would think that humans, drows, and wf'ed for that matter would all be capable of having a total INT mod to be effective as long as they keep thier INT maxxed out.

In the end your talking about one point of DC, and while it may make a small difference I doubt it will make so much a difference that you should play a race you don't want to just to get it.

[Darklight_Soulweaver]

Can never understand how people think the wf look like ****?
The Human models and Both the elves look terrible, but then again just had this thought.....I'm guessin your the type that plays female chars(talking to the guys here).

I agree lol.

Being a guy it pains me to see pretty much all male models(except for maybe Halfling) are so hideous. Often time I use helmets to hide my male char face(Bunny hat is great for this). That's why I don't mind WF model one bit, and when I don't make male WF or Halfling char, I make female char of other races(except for Dwarf...no Dwarf!).

[samthedagger]

Well...seeing as that new content will continued to be released......what might be the max INT today...won't necessarily be the max INT tomorrow.

While human is very appealing.....the fact of the matter is drow leaves the future open for if/when they introduce new items into the game that could raise INT even higher...whereas human will always be one point behind.

This is very extreme tho, as I would think that humans, drows, and wf'ed for that matter would all be capable of having a total INT mod to be effective as long as they keep thier INT maxxed out.

In the end your talking about one point of DC, and while it may make a small difference I doubt it will make so much a difference that you should play a race you don't want to just to get it.

Well, for me, the allure of a powerful wizard is to be the Mightiest Wizard in the World (TM), and that means spells that are harder resist than any other wizard's. It's mostly a play-style preference. So the race that I want to play will naturally be the one with highest possible (effective) Int.

You have a point about additional content. Who knows what might happen if they raise the cap to just 22? They might allow epic items with god-knows-what kind of bonuses.

[Gartooga]

human
18base
5lvls
3enhc wiz
1human
3excp
4tome
1litany
2capstone
7item(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...InnerSight.jpg)
------
44max int

[rjedi]

On a human it may be more costly yet very well doable via UMD with a (heal scroll) + healing Amp shall you plan it out well ... come level 20 people somehow think 11.5 ranks of umd is short - yet today we see pure fighters firing off heal scrolls between battles - something even easier to do on a wizard since they are skill rich and may carry items effective towards umd more readily may carry and heal in combat then a melee type class. UMD <- it's not just for rogue splashed and bards.
[/COLOR]

who needs UMD on a wizard for using heal scrolls? i dont

[Loci99]

Warforged are ugly because of the size of there bodies, not general appearance. There upper Torso looks ginormous compared to rest of there bodies. Warforged are suppose to be about same size as a human, have NEVER been depicted in any of eberron books as bing huge hulky brutes look like there modeled off of an orc because weren't! Warforged are suppose to have a human build/body, and is why i can't stand a warforged, add into it that CAN'T wear any robes, or normal gear and are limited to special gear that for me i rarely if ever see drop and create a bit of an issue for people like me who actually like look of there character.

Do i play female toons? of course and nothing wrong with it, i'd rather stare at a nice ass all day even a digital one then some warforged butt or lack there of... also human/elf males look fine, defiantly not anime elf ala WoW, but then again don't look like lanky monkey men either!

in end its all preferance, elves aren't significantly weaker then WF nor is reverse true its all a playstyle choice. Personally i prefer, drow/humans to WF in fact after the initial " cool a robot" phase wore off i haven't touched a WF since and probably never will.

[Sirea]

who needs UMD on a wizard for using heal scrolls? i dont

That'll be fixed someday. Hence why I'm building my wizard with UMD anyway. Never learn to rely on a bug. If you want to see what happens when you do, I suggest you look up the thread where Eladrin announced the Minos Legens fix, the wank there is a sight to behold.