Arcane Archer: Too Broken?

[SunisinuS]

Really?? The DM we "played" with sure would be surprised that he wasn't "playing" DND. Sorry, PVE players whining about pvp is about as old as the Beta of "Hello Kitty". I guess he wasnt "playing" monopoly when he was the Banker either. Blowback all you want pve'ers...heard it all. Afraid of pvp, hate pvp, anyone that plays pvp is terrible and evil and mean, if they have a forum on pvp it may ruin our pve world....ad nauseum. And why again are you posting in the pvp forum since you hate it so much?


Logic=?


Now PVE'ers, I think I hear your mother calling....its ok you can go back to your other forums while the Adults talk pvp. Love ya much!

[Calebro]

Really?? The DM we "played" with sure would be surprised that he wasn't "playing" DND. Sorry, PVE players whining about pvp is about as old as the Beta of "Hello Kitty". Blowback all you want pve'ers...heard it all. And why again are you posting in the pvp forum since you hate it so much?


Logic=?

PC stands for Player Character.
DM stands for Dungeon Master. The DM is not a player. The DM IS the environment. The situations that you're attempting to use as basis for your argument are all PvE examples.

For the record, I have nothing against PvP, other than the fact that attempting to balance it results in unbalancing parts of PvE, and that's always a HUGE problem.

[jcTharin]

I'll /sign this on a few conditions. Make the following changes as well:

1) Rogues don't get sneak attack in PvP
2) Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics and Favored Souls can't cast spells in PvP
3) Barbarians aren't allowed to Rage in PvP
4) Paladins aren't allowed to Smite in PvP
5) Fighters lose access to their bonus feats in PvP
6) Monks unarmed attack speed drops to equal a Fighter or equal level in PvP

If the following changes are made, then I'll /sign this idea. Otherwise, no.
This is basically the equivalent of what you're asking.

rogues don't get sneak attack in pvp, fortification blocks it. they also cant sneak in pvp.

paladins cant smite in pvp ether. there aren't any evil players.

[Calebro]

rogues don't get sneak attack in pvp, fortification blocks it. they also cant sneak in pvp.

paladins cant smite in pvp ether. there aren't any evil players.

I was simply making a point about the OP's idea. You understood that point and are nitpicking details.

[jcTharin]

I was simply making a point about the OP's idea. You understood that point and are nitpicking details.

you have a point there

[Uska]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 19BangoSkank19
I enjoy DDO and can see the potential in it with a PvP system that is far more thought out
than the hash we have at the moment. I wouldn't be playing DDO if I didn't find it entertaining. I just
find it rather crazy that

1) So many people of this community find PvP not only reprehensible but only as an activity of the
'immature' which is ridiculous as it assumes that the minority represents the majority.

"Because PvP has little or no place in the original PnP game that this MMO was based off. DDO is a group oriented game and the push is for us to work together not fight each other."

The original PnP game was ALL ABOUT PvP. You didn't walk into a town as a level 1 and see all the citizens walking around at level 5 (gods to you) and shoot your mouth off. You had better have been prepared as you slipped that wand out of your fellow adventurer's pack as he slept...better hope the DM gave you a good roll and you kept your inviso potion at the ready......Sorry, Pnp D&D without pvp is a snoozefest.

thats not really pvp and no groups I ever played with played that way we didnt rip each other off we were a team as an adventuring group should be the only time I saw that kind of play was at cons where it was a pick up game and most players didnt know each other if thats how you and yours play I am etneraly greatful never to have played with you.

[Uska]

"what you describe is a fight vs NPCs
thats called PvE, players vs environment

pvp in pnp means attacking your party members, and that usualy doesnt happen

so i have to say: you are wrong"

Lol you were all such lucky kids.....your DM was Big Blue built by IBM? I never once fought an AI monster in any PNP session I ever played. How did you manage it? I mean I had an AMIGA and it was awesome, but it never got me mountain dew and frito's while it narrated "The Keep on the Borderlands". Wow you are amazing ...and all that time I thought the DM I played with was a person and the people in my party were real and not robots. Wow. You sure were some lucky kids...all we had was Player Vs Player battles in my pnp sessions....and I could have sworn my DM was a person. I mean the DM rolled all the "monsters" rolls and made their strat and tactics for them....and yet you guys all had robots and AI for that? You people must have been a bunch of Ritchie Rich's! You keep playing your AI, I seem to prefer playing with and against real players, exclusively in pnp and throughout all the MMO's I have ever played. Hope your Chess Wizard keeps you warm at night!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4InEGJzOsQ

The Dm isnt a player he is the enviroment so thats PvE

[SunisinuS]

Mystified that you cannot tell the difference between a DM and a footstool. One sits on the other. One is in the environment, one is the environment. Sorry....that DM there will never be PVE'esque. And the "thank God I never played at a con or did any pvp or played with anyone that did".... you really missed out on some professional fun play there then...feel sorry for ya. It's like saying I love FootBall but would never want a free ticket to the superbowl (psst...btw....football is pvp). And again, why are you talking with people that like pvp then?

Mystified.

[Calebro]

Mystified that you cannot tell the difference between a DM and a footstool. One sits on the other. One is in the environment, one is the environment.

Referring to the game environment here, Sherlock, not the environment you're sitting in while you play.

You and the other people with game characters make up the players. That's why they're called Player Characters. Because the PLAYERS run them.
Exactly which things in the game does the DM control? Every single thing except for the PCs. This includes the NPCs, or Non-Player Characters.
I'll repeat that for you.
Non
Player
Characters
And who runs them? The DM. Because he IS the environment. He is not a player. He controls the game environment. He's almost kind of like a "Master of the Dungeon" or something. While he is technically playing, he is not a Player in respect to PvP. He is the E in the PvE equation.

Why is this concept so hard for you to understand?

[Vistella]

And again, why are you talking with people that like pvp then?

Mystified.

hitler talked to jews too (in some way)

[LightInDark]

so the argument has devolved to Nazi accusations ....

way past time to close this thread

[SunisinuS]

"While he is technically playing, he is not a Player in respect to PvP. " Ergo Ipso Facto. God is in the details. Thanks for making my point. He is PLAYING. He is just as much a player as the Banker in Monopoly. In any case, you can make any personal attacks you want, insult other's intelligence (I only cast aspersions on your courage), and make histrionic historical hyperbolic hay, but the truth remains: PVE players hate PVP in general it seems because it scares them. Now let's work on that:

The "Arcane Archer" in PVP is what scared somebody. So people comfortable with pvp start talking counters that exist in game and almost universally (PVP Vets I'm talking about here) do not want anything in PVE manipulated or changed unless it is just flat out bad code (Borked Wand targetting in pvp for example). So no one wants your PVE experience changed or ruined for you. Guild Wars is a game DESIGNED around and for PVP, but you can play exclusively PVE and never PVP if you like, and neither need the twain meet. Seemless. So I want you to realize that it is only perspective and approach that prevent both parties from having what they want.

Another Turbine Game: Asheron's call. Darktide: PVP only server, full loot, full experience loss. The stuff of nightmares for pve players. Darktide was actually what kept AC going after all the pve players had moved on to the next FOTM, and Turbine did not invest much in it at all. Everyone that is experienced in pvp wants the same thing you Pve'ers want: For you not to play PVP if you are a hater.

In AC, pvp was diametrically opposite of what the pve people are mythically afraid of; in fact you made closer and better friendships and ties in pvp, cooperation was more intense, and people had a terrific time. For Example: If you were out farming a MOB on the beach and you saw a red dot on your radar, you of course went...uh oh. You were fully engaged with a MOB and that person could steal your kill, or kill you, ganking and making you feel as if you were griefed. That is what a PVE player tells everyone, that those two things always happen. Wrong. They rarely happened. PVP is like a Mafia/Gang world. They need all the people they can get. So that red dot is more likely to come up and watch you, not interfere, see what your plan is and your reaction to them, and if they like you, try and recruit you; not grief you. If you panic and attack them or act unnaturally, you may get more attention, but in general, PVP players are more devoted, more social, and more intense in respect to the game in general. This should be applauded and not derided.

I hope PVE stays just the way you like it. I don't care. So you can lay off the insults against pvp players and their way of life and play pve all day long. But the people that really care about the mechanics of the game will be here whenever you want to dip your toes in the cold cold water.

GL and HF!

[Calebro]

"While he is technically playing, he is not a Player in respect to PvP. " Ergo Ipso Facto. God is in the details. Thanks for making my point. He is PLAYING. He is just as much a player as the Banker in Monopoly. In any case, you can make any personal attacks you want, insult other's intelligence (I only cast aspersions on your courage), and make histrionic historical hyperbolic hay, but the truth remains: PVE players hate PVP in general it seems because it scares them. Now let's work on that:

This is where I stopped reading, because you can't get it through your head that:
1) The DM is not a player, and therefore does not count as PvP
and
2) I have nothing against PvP in and of itself, but rather that any attempts to balance it after the fact always result in imbalances in the PvE portion, and as this is primarily a PvE game that should NEVER happen.

If you can come to terms with these two facts.... and they are indeed facts.... then we can continue this conversation.
If you can't grasp these concepts we have nothing left to say to each other.

[Vistella]

"While he is technically playing, he is not a Player in respect to PvP. " Ergo Ipso Facto. God is in the details. Thanks for making my point. He is PLAYING. He is just as much a player as the Banker in Monopoly. In any case, you can make any personal attacks you want, insult other's intelligence (I only cast aspersions on your courage), and make histrionic historical hyperbolic hay, but the truth remains: PVE players hate PVP in general it seems because it scares them. Now let's work on that:

The "Arcane Archer" in PVP is what scared somebody. So people comfortable with pvp start talking counters that exist in game and almost universally (PVP Vets I'm talking about here) do not want anything in PVE manipulated or changed unless it is just flat out bad code (Borked Wand targetting in pvp for example). So no one wants your PVE experience changed or ruined for you. Guild Wars is a game DESIGNED around and for PVP, but you can play exclusively PVE and never PVP if you like, and neither need the twain meet. Seemless. So I want you to realize that it is only perspective and approach that prevent both parties from having what they want.

Another Turbine Game: Asheron's call. Darktide: PVP only server, full loot, full experience loss. The stuff of nightmares for pve players. Darktide was actually what kept AC going after all the pve players had moved on to the next FOTM, and Turbine did not invest much in it at all. Everyone that is experienced in pvp wants the same thing you Pve'ers want: For you not to play PVP if you are a hater.

In AC, pvp was diametrically opposite of what the pve people are mythically afraid of; in fact you made closer and better friendships and ties in pvp, cooperation was more intense, and people had a terrific time. For Example: If you were out farming a MOB on the beach and you saw a red dot on your radar, you of course went...uh oh. You were fully engaged with a MOB and that person could steal your kill, or kill you, ganking and making you feel as if you were griefed. That is what a PVE player tells everyone, that those two things always happen. Wrong. They rarely happened. PVP is like a Mafia/Gang world. They need all the people they can get. So that red dot is more likely to come up and watch you, not interfere, see what your plan is and your reaction to them, and if they like you, try and recruit you; not grief you. If you panic and attack them or act unnaturally, you may get more attention, but in general, PVP players are more devoted, more social, and more intense in respect to the game in general. This should be applauded and not derided.

I hope PVE stays just the way you like it. I don't care. So you can lay off the insults against pvp players and their way of life and play pve all day long. But the people that really care about the mechanics of the game will be here whenever you want to dip your toes in the cold cold water.

GL and HF!

/fail

[Chai]

If it keeps procing slayer, it cant be all that bad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6_zsJ8KPP0

[rdasca]

Funny I DMed many a game session, and only a couple of times did I ever run a PC at the same time, and only then because it was necessary for some reason.

DM = Dungeon Master, you know the guy that is in charge of the game, decides what rules to use, where the bad guys are, what treasure is there, ect... The DM is the one person who can change a dice roll if the result would "ruin" the game, if the DM messes up an encounter he can have all the bad guys run away or suddenly have 50 more join the fight, basically balance the game as needed. So while the DM is playing the game, the DM is not a player, therefore it is not PvP it is PvE or if you like PvDM.

PC = Player Character, these are the players of the fantasy world the DM is running, whether a purely home build one or a module bought off a shelf.

PvP in PnP does not exist in most people's D&D games, the only time I can even think that it might would be if the party was evil, but then most evil parties rarely last more than one session. (and yes I am sure there are several people here who played evil characters to level 500 or whatever, but the point is the majority of D&D games are good based)

You whole argument is a fail SunisinuS simply because you do not understand the difference between playing the game and being a player of a character. Your argument further bakes down when you talk about the DM “runs the monsters” that example is clearly PvE to say otherwise is to prove a lack of understanding of D&D.

BTY, I could care less about PvP within DDO, with the exceptions that time spent working on PvP does not take up a developer’s time that could be used to fix bugs and add new content, and as long as changes are not made in PvP affect the rest of the game in anyway.

[Robi3.0]

hitler talked to jews too (in some way)

I get ragged on for bring up Neo-nazi, by a random someone. So I am going to have to rag on you a bit for bring up Hitler.


K, done

[cpito]

/snip

Wow, really. Yes, the DM plays the game. Here's a breakdown for you:

George: Monk
Cathy: Ranger
Dave1: Magic User
Andy: Paladin
Mike: Cavalier
Dave2: Cleric

All these people are playing with and guided through quests by

Lori: DM/GOD using the original computer... otherwise known as a brain.

To be perfectly honest, there is PvP available to PnP players when Lori decides to throw a Helm of Opposite Alignment at the party and Andy puts it on before Dave1 manages to identify it. Now George, Cathy, Dave1, Dave2 and Mike have a chaotic evil former paladin bent on destroying them all to contend with. Notice that Lori is not in that equation? That's because she created the situation.

Of special note, concerning the original topic, is that no rule changes were ever implemented just because we were now fighting one of our own.

[t0r012]

Whats Sad About The Author Of This Complaint Is That He Has A Lvl 20 Barb And A 17 Caster. If The Barb Is Getting Owed In Pvp By An Arcane Archer With Slayer Arrows, His Little BarB Must Have Less Then 500 Hit Points Then, Raged Even? Slayers Hit On That 20 For 500 Hit Points. Maybe He Should Consider A Re-roll.

+1
I could see the caster with an issue but a caped barb?? Seriously he should be walk up and take the manyshot to the face with slayer proc , then proceed to take the guys bow and stick it where the sun don't shine.

----------
on a side note
to help with the complete imbalance of AA in PvP the devs added something for you that only works in PvP, a nifty feat called deflect arrows that only works in PvP.

[Nuralanya]

Whats Sad About The Author Of This Complaint Is That He Has A Lvl 20 Barb And A 17 Caster. If The Barb Is Getting Owed In Pvp By An Arcane Archer With Slayer Arrows, His Little BarB Must Have Less Then 500 Hit Points Then, Raged Even? Slayers Hit On That 20 For 500 Hit Points. Maybe He Should Consider A Re-roll.

Just to clarify this point, Slayer arrows hit for MORE than 500 points. The Slayer effect goes off on a 20, which is a critical hit. The 500 points is IN ADDITION to the regular critical damage. My Arcane Archer often hits for well over 650 points of damage on a 20 with a 'regular' type of bow (i.e. not a Shroud weapon). Add to that the chance of rolling more than one 20 in a manyshot volley (I sometimes get two or even three), and that's a lot of damage in a couple of seconds.

(btw, I have no interest in either PvP or getting into build discussions. I just wanted to comment on this one point. You may return to your discussion now. )